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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Do you believe in ONE Gospel ???
- Thread starter dan p
- Start date
dan p said:
Jesus told His disciples to go preach to all nations after His resurrection. That's found in the Gospel Books of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. All twelve Apostles were of Israel, and Paul himself openly declared himself to be a Jew. The Book of Acts is full of examples of their preaching to both Jews and Gentiles the one Gospel.
Even today, there are Jews in all Churches, including Protestant Churches, where the pastor may or may not be Jewish. Lot of times Jewish folks among Protestant Churches don't reveal their Jewish heritage, and there's really no need for them to do that. In other words, those don't practice orthodox Judaism, although they may still adhere to some old Jewish traditions like God's health laws. Among the Adventists, there are many Jewish folks along with many Gentile folks. Though I don't agree with a lot of their interpretation of end time prophecy, one will hear the Gospel message being preached among them.
But for an orthodox Jew which follows the religion of Judaism, those are not going to preach the Gospel, because they don't believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You won't hear the Gospel being preached among orthodox Jews who still follow the religion of Judaism. But you will discover Gentiles among them also which follow the religion of Judaism and have become Jews. Sammy Davis Jr., the singer, became a Jew, even though he was born a Gentile.
. glorydaz said:
MY COMMENTS: Yes indeed, he preached the kingdom of God. While I couldn't find any verse that specifically said "gospel of the kingdom of God", that is certainly what Paul preached.
And there are also some other connections to "gospel" that I didn't mention: for instance, "gospel of his Son"..Rom. 1:9; and "gospel of peace"..Eph. 6:15.
To me, the "good news" given to Paul to preach is encompassed by all of these, whether "God" or "Christ" or "the kingdom of God" or "grace" or "peace."
An enlightening study would be the differences between "kingdom of heaven" (literally-'kingdom of the heavens') and "kingdom of God".
Nick
Member
So is the argument here that there were two different gospels being preached?
If so, I have only to quote Galations 1:1-10 here:
1Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2and all the brothers with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
3Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
In verses 2-4 we see the gospel message. And later, in verses 6-7, we see that there was some false teaching going on, but these can hardly be called gospels. Verses 8 and 9 state a warning to anyone preaching against the one and true gospel mentioned in verses 2-4 that they shall be eternally condemmed, including those who say that there is a second gospel.
And the only gospel is (as we see in verse 10) from God, and those who are only trying to seek the approval of God will be preaching the true gospel.
If so, I have only to quote Galations 1:1-10 here:
1Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2and all the brothers with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
3Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
In verses 2-4 we see the gospel message. And later, in verses 6-7, we see that there was some false teaching going on, but these can hardly be called gospels. Verses 8 and 9 state a warning to anyone preaching against the one and true gospel mentioned in verses 2-4 that they shall be eternally condemmed, including those who say that there is a second gospel.
And the only gospel is (as we see in verse 10) from God, and those who are only trying to seek the approval of God will be preaching the true gospel.
cyberjosh
Member
Hi Dan,
First of all THANK YOU for answering the questions. That really helps me understand where you are coming from.
I will try to respond in kind.
#1 Okay, I was confirming.
#2 Was that not a Jewish misunderstanding of what Paul taught that had led them to that accusation (as they often falsely accused Jesus?
Also I don't understand what you believe the "consequences" are of Paul preaching against Jesus' message. Are you saying Jesus' message did not apply to the Gentiles, thus Paul's message was different - or are you actually saying that Paul's message fundamentally contradicted Jesus' teachings (making him a liar and a false teacher)?
It seems that Paul must have cursed Jesus' gospel in Galatians 1:9 if the above is true. And what about what Jesus said in Revelation 2:14 which seems to curse those who taught that eating meat sacrificed to idols was okay (which Paul did) to a GENTILE church (Pergamum)? Are you advocating a complete contradiction between Jesus' and Paul's teachings?
dan p said:
First of all THANK YOU for answering the questions. That really helps me understand where you are coming from.
I will try to respond in kind.
#1 Okay, I was confirming.
#2 Was that not a Jewish misunderstanding of what Paul taught that had led them to that accusation (as they often falsely accused Jesus?
Also I don't understand what you believe the "consequences" are of Paul preaching against Jesus' message. Are you saying Jesus' message did not apply to the Gentiles, thus Paul's message was different - or are you actually saying that Paul's message fundamentally contradicted Jesus' teachings (making him a liar and a false teacher)?
It seems that Paul must have cursed Jesus' gospel in Galatians 1:9 if the above is true. And what about what Jesus said in Revelation 2:14 which seems to curse those who taught that eating meat sacrificed to idols was okay (which Paul did) to a GENTILE church (Pergamum)? Are you advocating a complete contradiction between Jesus' and Paul's teachings?
cybershark5886 said:
Hi Josh , and it kicked me out again , and will try again !!
1) It says in Acts 21:21 to " forsake Moses " very plain to me .
2) The Greek word for " forsake " is APOSTASIA nad means to depart defect and does NOT means APSOTASY , because it is a not a translated word , BUT a Transliterated word .
3) Revlation has NOTHING to do with the Body of Christ , unless you have a verse that proves that ???
4) I do not see where Jesus is Cursed in Gal 1:9 , for it is speaking about those that Teach the Law and are Kingdom type preachers that Paul warned about in Gal 1:9 and in Acts 20:29 .
cyberjosh
Member
Hello Dan,
Thank you again for your candid response.
I would say that Paul's teaching of the law was no different than Jesus', the only change was that the Jews had since realized that all foods were clean (as Peter, a Jew, saw in his vision of the heavenly sheet - Acts 10:9-16), and other OT laws were not ritually required, only the law that Jesus had set forth on the Sermon on the Mount (the law of the heart, under grace), which the Jewish people (and sometimes even his own disciples) were too dense to realize during Jesus' ministry.
The first few chapters of Revelation are addressed to Christian Gentile Churches. What are you talking about?
The logic seems very simple to me: If Paul said that any person preaching a Gospel other than the one they had received and which he had preached to them is to be accursed, thus if you say that Jesus and Paul preached a different Gospel then Paul must have excluded Jesus' Gospel when he said only his was the true Gospel.
Also do you accept the point that I made about Paul being Apostle to the Jews as well as the Gentiles (Acts 9:15)? That means that Paul's Gospel to the Jews was the same as for the Gentiles (with the additional freedom in Christ to observe their traditional observances - not to keep the law though).
I would like to hear your thoughts further on this matter.
God Bless,
Josh
Thank you again for your candid response.
dan p said:
I would say that Paul's teaching of the law was no different than Jesus', the only change was that the Jews had since realized that all foods were clean (as Peter, a Jew, saw in his vision of the heavenly sheet - Acts 10:9-16), and other OT laws were not ritually required, only the law that Jesus had set forth on the Sermon on the Mount (the law of the heart, under grace), which the Jewish people (and sometimes even his own disciples) were too dense to realize during Jesus' ministry.
dan p said:
The first few chapters of Revelation are addressed to Christian Gentile Churches. What are you talking about?
dan p said:
The logic seems very simple to me: If Paul said that any person preaching a Gospel other than the one they had received and which he had preached to them is to be accursed, thus if you say that Jesus and Paul preached a different Gospel then Paul must have excluded Jesus' Gospel when he said only his was the true Gospel.
Also do you accept the point that I made about Paul being Apostle to the Jews as well as the Gentiles (Acts 9:15)? That means that Paul's Gospel to the Jews was the same as for the Gentiles (with the additional freedom in Christ to observe their traditional observances - not to keep the law though).
I would like to hear your thoughts further on this matter.
God Bless,
Josh
cybershark5886 said:
The first few chapters of Revelation are addressed to Christian Gentile Churches. What are you talking about?
dan p said:
The logic seems very simple to me: If Paul said that any person preaching a Gospel other than the one they had received and which he had preached to them is to be accursed, thus if you say that Jesus and Paul preached a different Gospel then Paul must have excluded Jesus' Gospel when he said only his was the true Gospel.
Also do you accept the point that I made about Paul being Apostle to the Jews as well as the Gentiles (Acts 9:15)? That means that Paul's Gospel to the Jews was the same as for the Gentiles (with the additional freedom in Christ to observe their traditional observances - not to keep the law though).
I would like to hear your thoughts further on this matter.
God Bless,
Josh[/quote:3v8xm3re]
Hi Josh , it will awhile before I believe that you know where I am coming from, just what I deduce from your answers , my opinion of course , and I have not yet fully explained Paul position on Dispensationalism that Veteran said , as setting the stage .
I had a written response as to what the Revelation is about and it kicked me out and will have to post again , and is not like what you say on the many forums that I am on . They see the Church in the first 3 chapters , see the Rapture in the 7 trumpet , and try to say what the Bowls means , and much confusion .
I have posted an OP on Acts 9:15 .
You keep sayins that Jesus and Paul spoke about the same Law , and do you have a verse that says that ?????
After Acts 28:28 , Israel was set aside , and has been set aside for 2000 years by Titus in 70 AD , a Historical FACT , and do you reject that Historical fact ?????
If all you see in Acts 10 , is clean food , read it through again , as Acts is TRUELY the most mis-intrepretative book of the bible. Acts explains WHY Paul and the coming of the Grace of God , and I will have to give an explanation on my take of Acts 10 with Cornelius .
cyberjosh
Member
Hi Dan,
Fundamentally what I don't think I understand about your view is how you view the New Testament as a whole. It seemed like you dimissed any Christian application of the Gospels as "not applicable" because it was only for "the Jews". It is frustrating to think that someone would not see a continuation between Jesus' teaching and his very own apostles! Why would Paul not teach what Jesus taught? I don't understand. For what reason then did Jesus himself come and teach (other than for atonement)? Please explain that to me. I sincerely would like to understand your view on that.
Hmmm, I am thinking we may need to discuss Revelation separately, but my point was that since you seem to think Jesus and Paul preached different things, how do you avoid heretical/unorthodox conclusions that Jesus and Paul contradicted one another (as an atheist and other skeptics would)?
The point about food in Revelation was that some (mostly skeptics) say that Jesus said it was not okay to eat meat sacrifices to idols while Paul said it WAS okay. So is there a contradiction?
I would like to read that, but I cannot find it. Would you mind posting a link to it here? Thanks.
There is only one Old Testament Law. When Jesus speaks frequently in the Gospels of "the law and the prophets" and Paul - all throughout Romans - speaks about the Law, they are one and the same. Infact, Jesus and Paul said almost identical things about how love fulfills the law (as Jesus in the story of the Good Samaritan, and Paul in Romans 13:8-10, "he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law" (vs. 8), and "Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law" (vs. 10)). Are you going to tell me that they are not talking about the same law?
I'm not big on pin-pointing an exact date of when God set Israel aside (unlike Preterists - who say most Biblical eschatology was fullfilled in 70 AD), but Paul well before then in Romans 9-11 spoke of how God turned to the Gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy and that Israel would be restored - and he made it clear that the Gentiles were grafted into the promises of Israel, not the other way around.
I'm not sure what you are talking about here, I was only focusing on Peter's vision - not hte whole chapter. My point was that what Jesus said about the Law and what was revealed afterwards were not at odds, and in fact complimented one another. And I wanted to point out that it was revealed to a Jew (Peter), not a Gentile.
God Bless,
~Josh
Fundamentally what I don't think I understand about your view is how you view the New Testament as a whole. It seemed like you dimissed any Christian application of the Gospels as "not applicable" because it was only for "the Jews". It is frustrating to think that someone would not see a continuation between Jesus' teaching and his very own apostles! Why would Paul not teach what Jesus taught? I don't understand. For what reason then did Jesus himself come and teach (other than for atonement)? Please explain that to me. I sincerely would like to understand your view on that.
dan p said:
Hmmm, I am thinking we may need to discuss Revelation separately, but my point was that since you seem to think Jesus and Paul preached different things, how do you avoid heretical/unorthodox conclusions that Jesus and Paul contradicted one another (as an atheist and other skeptics would)?
The point about food in Revelation was that some (mostly skeptics) say that Jesus said it was not okay to eat meat sacrifices to idols while Paul said it WAS okay. So is there a contradiction?
I would like to read that, but I cannot find it. Would you mind posting a link to it here? Thanks.
There is only one Old Testament Law. When Jesus speaks frequently in the Gospels of "the law and the prophets" and Paul - all throughout Romans - speaks about the Law, they are one and the same. Infact, Jesus and Paul said almost identical things about how love fulfills the law (as Jesus in the story of the Good Samaritan, and Paul in Romans 13:8-10, "he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law" (vs. 8), and "Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law" (vs. 10)). Are you going to tell me that they are not talking about the same law?
I'm not big on pin-pointing an exact date of when God set Israel aside (unlike Preterists - who say most Biblical eschatology was fullfilled in 70 AD), but Paul well before then in Romans 9-11 spoke of how God turned to the Gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy and that Israel would be restored - and he made it clear that the Gentiles were grafted into the promises of Israel, not the other way around.
I'm not sure what you are talking about here, I was only focusing on Peter's vision - not hte whole chapter. My point was that what Jesus said about the Law and what was revealed afterwards were not at odds, and in fact complimented one another. And I wanted to point out that it was revealed to a Jew (Peter), not a Gentile.
God Bless,
~Josh
cyberjosh
Member
Nick said:Do we want this as a 1-on-1 debate?
Ehhh, I don't really like the connotation of 'debate' when I'm just trying to understand someone's point. I don't regard this as a debate, just conversing. And normally if it comes down to a disagreement I'll just agree to disagree. For now though I sincerely am trying to understand Dan's point of view, as Dan actually says some really interesting things.
Nick
Member
Ok. Just thought of the idea as you two are the only people in the thread at the moment. But let's just leave it open then.cybershark5886 said:Nick said:Do we want this as a 1-on-1 debate?
Ehhh, I don't really like the connotation of 'debate' when I'm just trying to understand someone's point. I don't regard this as a debate, just conversing. And normally if it comes down to a disagreement I'll just agree to disagree. For now though I sincerely am trying to understand Dan's point of view, as Dan actually says some really interesting things.
dan p said:
If you'd take time to read what I wrote in the above, you'd have your answer. It's apparent you choose to dodge answers given you when it does not suit your doctrine of a double-gospel. At the end of the Gospel Books of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, our Lord Jesus tells His Apostles to go and preach The Gospel to all nations and baptize them. Does that include their preaching to Gentiles? Of course it does. That is a hard Biblical proof that our Lord Jesus sent Israelites to preach The Gospel to Gentiles. Acts 10 with Peter being sent by God to preach to Gentiles is another of many examples. The Book of Acts of full of those type examples. But not just Acts, but the Gospel Books also! Probably a good thing you don't care to respond to that from the Gospel Books, since you'd be calling our Lord Jesus a liar if you said He did not tell His Apostles to go preach to ALL NATIONS.
But what about Apostle Paul, especially since he himself said he was a Jew, born of the tribe of Benjamin? (Acts 22; Phil.3) Paul preached to Gentiles, and also baptized some.