Do you believe in predestination ?


That's one wrong writer then. You're a Christian. The Book of Truth, not a book of truths but The book of truth says many things to the contrary so we must believe it first and foremost, right?

It sounds to me like you would profit from studying up on Covenants. Some Covenants are BiLateral (meaning both parties have a responsibility to fulfill in the terms of the Covenant...Another type of Covenant is a Unilateral Covenant where only one party of the Covenant has any responsibilities)

The uh, Noaic (?) Noahhide (?) Covenant (not sure what they call it) The Covenant that God made to Noah (for all of mankind) was a unilateral Covenant where only God has a stated responsibility under the terms of the covenant. And because God has the only responsibility in that Covenant he made a Rainbow to serve as a reminder to men, that God will never interfere with mankind again by bringing a flood or whatever...essentially giving or allowing free will of our own.

Now the rule is, You have not because you ask not.

Unless you have a different interpretation of Noah's Covenant?
 

Brightfame, let's look at the passage your writer quoted a little more closely. It is used by proponents of Predestination to mean that God choices some for salvation and some for damnation. But that is clearly not what is being referenced:

Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory. (Romans 9:21-23)

Now, the first thing that jumps out is that he is discussing vessels fitted for destruction? Though there are many that teach that the soul ceases to exist after death, this is not the Christian tradition. So according to Christian doctrine, is he talking here about their state after death, or something that would happen to them in this life?

The second thing is that he mentions God doing these things "to make His power known." If this is in reference to casting souls into Hell, is that His motivation for doing so? He sends people to Hell just so He can impress others? Who exactly would He be impressing, since natural man cannot see Hell? No, the reference is to showing the nations of the earth at that time who the Most High God was, and that He could deliver His people even out of the strongest empires on earth.

There are other points I could use to prove your writer is grossly misapplying the text in question, but the upstart of the whole matter is simply this: Don't let people create your doctrines for you. Judge for yourself, and read scripture for yourself. If you will do that, you may come to your own conclusions, and see that things you have been taught are wrong. As a result, you will understand scripture much clearer.

God bless,
Hidden In Him
 

Since I have some time and would rather be looking at scripture, let me explain the entire Chapter in its context:

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Ok, every passage in this Chapter is about the earthly state of the Jews and Gentiles, and what was happening with each. At the present time the Jews were being bypassed by God in favor of the Gentiles. Paul wasn't happy to see them being bypassed and the gospel being preached to the Gentiles in the earth instead, so he was saying the above.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Again, this is about what was happening in the earth. Paul was explaining why the gospel was being preached to the Gentiles now, and it was because the promise was not to Israel's "seed" in the flesh but to his seed spiritually. But again, the discussion is about why God was now turning to the Gentiles to preach to them the gospel in the earth.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

These are now two different illustrations of decisions God made about what fate people would suffer in the earth, not in eternity. He determined in advance that Jacob would be blessed and Esau would not, to illustrate the principle that "it is not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit" says the Lord, and "when you prosper, do not say, 'My hand has gotten me this wealth,' for it is the Lord who has caused you to prosper." He knew Esau would be a very fleshly man before he was even born, and chose to illustrate that the power of the flesh will not determine whom God chooses to bless and who He does not in the earth.

He also uses Pharaoh as an illustration of the same point. Who was stronger in the flesh, the Israelites or the Egyptian army? Obviously the Egyptians were, but there was nothing they could do to stop the Israelites from leaving Egypt, because "It is not by power, nor by might, but by My Spirit" says the Lord.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

This is now an indictment against fleshly Israel in Paul's time, because they were without excuse for having rejected their Messiah. They could not simply say, "Who has resisted His will?" They had rejected Him, and now He was turning to the Gentiles. Like Jacob, spiritual Israel was now being blessed with "the covenants, and the adoption, and the glory" in the earth instead of natural Israel, and like Esau, natural Israel was essentially selling their spiritual birthright for a bowl of porridge. But this was not about salvation, but about the current spiritual state of the Jews and the Gentiles at the time Paul was writing, and why God was turning to them now, which is what he refers to in the next verse:

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

This "glory" he is referring to is described by Paul elsewhere as follows:

1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known through the church unto the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord (Ephesians 3:1-11)

This is thus what Paul is talking about when he finishes out the rest of Romans 9:

25 As He says also in Hosea: “I will call them My people, who were not My people, and her beloved, who was not beloved.” 26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ there they shall be called sons of the living God.” 27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved. 28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.” 29 And as Isaiah said before: “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah.” 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, and whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
 
That's one wrong writer then. You're a Christian. The Book of Truth, not a book of truths but The book of truth says many things to the contrary so we must believe it first and foremost, right?

It sounds to me like you would profit from studying up on Covenants. Some Covenants are BiLateral (meaning both parties have a responsibility to fulfill in the terms of the Covenant...Another type of Covenant is a Unilateral Covenant where only one party of the Covenant has any responsibilities)

The uh, Noaic (?) Noahhide (?) Covenant (not sure what they call it) The Covenant that God made to Noah (for all of mankind) was a unilateral Covenant where only God has a stated responsibility under the terms of the covenant. And because God has the only responsibility in that Covenant he made a Rainbow to serve as a reminder to men, that God will never interfere with mankind again by bringing a flood or whatever...essentially giving or allowing free will of our own.

Now the rule is, You have not because you ask not.

Unless you have a different interpretation of Noah's Covenant?
I think the writer was scriptural on that particular issue.
 
Brightfame, let's look at the passage your writer quoted a little more closely. It is used by proponents of Predestination to mean that God choices some for salvation and some for damnation. But that is clearly not what is being referenced:

Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory. (Romans 9:21-23)

Now, the first thing that jumps out is that he is discussing vessels fitted for destruction? Though there are many that teach that the soul ceases to exist after death, this is not the Christian tradition. So according to Christian doctrine, is he talking here about their state after death, or something that would happen to them in this life?

The second thing is that he mentions God doing these things "to make His power known." If this is in reference to casting souls into Hell, is that His motivation for doing so? He sends people to Hell just so He can impress others? Who exactly would He be impressing, since natural man cannot see Hell? No, the reference is to showing the nations of the earth at that time who the Most High God was, and that He could deliver His people even out of the strongest empires on earth.

There are other points I could use to prove your writer is grossly misapplying the text in question, but the upstart of the whole matter is simply this: Don't let people create your doctrines for you. Judge for yourself, and read scripture for yourself. If you will do that, you may come to your own conclusions, and see that things you have been taught are wrong. As a result, you will understand scripture much clearer.

God bless,
Hidden In Him
I believe the writer was accurate and biblical.
 
Since I have some time and would rather be looking at scripture, let me explain the entire Chapter in its context:

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Ok, every passage in this Chapter is about the earthly state of the Jews and Gentiles, and what was happening with each. At the present time the Jews were being bypassed by God in favor of the Gentiles. Paul wasn't happy to see them being bypassed and the gospel being preached to the Gentiles in the earth instead, so he was saying the above.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Again, this is about what was happening in the earth. Paul was explaining why the gospel was being preached to the Gentiles now, and it was because the promise was not to Israel's "seed" in the flesh but to his seed spiritually. But again, the discussion is about why God was now turning to the Gentiles to preach to them the gospel in the earth.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

These are now two different illustrations of decisions God made about what fate people would suffer in the earth, not in eternity. He determined in advance that Jacob would be blessed and Esau would not, to illustrate the principle that "it is not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit" says the Lord, and "when you prosper, do not say, 'My hand has gotten me this wealth,' for it is the Lord who has caused you to prosper." He knew Esau would be a very fleshly man before he was even born, and chose to illustrate that the power of the flesh will not determine whom God chooses to bless and who He does not in the earth.

He also uses Pharaoh as an illustration of the same point. Who was stronger in the flesh, the Israelites or the Egyptian army? Obviously the Egyptians were, but there was nothing they could do to stop the Israelites from leaving Egypt, because "It is not by power, nor by might, but by My Spirit" says the Lord.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

This is now an indictment against fleshly Israel in Paul's time, because they were without excuse for having rejected their Messiah. They could not simply say, "Who has resisted His will?" They had rejected Him, and now He was turning to the Gentiles. Like Jacob, spiritual Israel was now being blessed with "the covenants, and the adoption, and the glory" in the earth instead of natural Israel, and like Esau, natural Israel was essentially selling their spiritual birthright for a bowl of porridge. But this was not about salvation, but about the current spiritual state of the Jews and the Gentiles at the time Paul was writing, and why God was turning to them now, which is what he refers to in the next verse:

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

This "glory" he is referring to is described by Paul elsewhere as follows:

1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known through the church unto the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord (Ephesians 3:1-11)

This is thus what Paul is talking about when he finishes out the rest of Romans 9:

25 As He says also in Hosea: “I will call them My people, who were not My people, and her beloved, who was not beloved.” 26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ there they shall be called sons of the living God.” 27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved. 28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.” 29 And as Isaiah said before: “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah.” 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, and whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
Im familiar with the context. The writer is also I would suppose.
 
I think the writer was scriptural on that particular issue.

It may sound so from a limited perspective of scripture because as you know, all of our interpretations have to agree with all of scripture before we could possibly consider it to be the truth. The writer of that piece does not take into consideration the wide variety of scriptures which debunk his premise.

But...believe as you wish to.
 
For what purpose if God already knew who would be His own?
He doesn't know birth and death of you?
How did he plan to save man from his sins?He didn't plan to or even know sin .Satan would occur .was it by chance he made the trees of life and knowledge .

We have to be allowed to choose but God choose to allow us to deny him.He didn't make us choose but let's us choose .where it gets hard is how much choose we do have .one side seems to think alor the other not so much

I postulate if a cop simply let a man commit suicide without trying to stop him it wouldn't go well .yet some post God let's that happen .he informs us of death .sorrow and we knowingly choose to die like that .the other side says God knows and doesn't care to save that person and let's them be judged using his words to judge them.

IMHO it's not so clear .thus not a hill to die on. I lean left of the reformed .but see holes in my side.you simply can't choose to serve God if He never offers Himself .the only race chosen and offered is the Jews .before the cross . There's no evidence to suggest He did or didn't and not for us to know this side of heaven

I prefer not to make doctrines out of arguments of silence
 
He doesn't know birth and death of you?
How did he plan to save man from his sins?He didn't plan to or even know sin .Satan would occur .was it by chance he made the trees of life and knowledge .

We have to be allowed to choose but God choose to allow us to deny him.He didn't make us choose but let's us choose .where it gets hard is how much choose we do have .one side seems to think alor the other not so much

I postulate if a cop simply let a man commit suicide without trying to stop him it wouldn't go well .yet some post God let's that happen .he informs us of death .sorrow and we knowingly choose to die like that .the other side says God knows and doesn't care to save that person and let's them be judged using his words to judge them.

IMHO it's not so clear .thus not a hill to die on. I lean left of the reformed .but see holes in my side.you simply can't choose to serve God if He never offers Himself .the only race chosen and offered is the Jews .before the cross . There's no evidence to suggest He did or didn't and not for us to know this side of heaven

I prefer not to make doctrines out of arguments of silence
God will make Himself known to all who will ask with a sincere heart.
 
I tend not to believe in predestination, but do believe in foreknowledge. But even if predestination was true, in the end it doesn't matter, anyway. Even God lets things run their course, even with His foreknowledge. So we should live our lives and evangelize like predestination was never a thing, since the end result is the same either way. Inasmuch as evangelism is not done because "we are predestined anyway"--that is how much I take issue with predestination.
 
God will make Himself known to all who will ask with a sincere heart.
He leads.no man can come to father except he be drawn first .

I wanted my sin over God and had no intention to get saved .I was interupted by God .God sends men to tell .if God didn't none would repent unless God acts first
 
He leads.no man can come to father except he be drawn first .

I wanted my sin over God and had no intention to get saved .I was interupted by God .God sends men to tell .if God didn't none would repent unless God acts first
Yes, I agree that God draws us to Him, but there are so many that their hearts are so hardened and wicked as they have made their own choice to reject Him as they refuse His calling them.
 
Mans religion teaches contrary to scripture, that Gods predestination is premised on Gods foresight of mans doing something, his works or believing etc, but its not true. Gods predestination is conditioned upon His own Eternal Purpose, the good pleasure of His Will Eph 1:5

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 
In light of what I showed you in that passage, my question then is why? What in the passage gives you the impression he is correct while I am not?
Thats simple, I agree with the writer and you dont, the reason why is what the writer has written which you obviously dont agree with.
 
I've studied the scriptures for decades, I've heard most, if not all the major slants, and I've come to a conclusion.
When I turned 2, I recalled that my first memory was being conscious, and what appeared to be about 7 feet in front of me, was a ball of pure, white, light. Shining out from it a little and thickly clustered, where white rays. All around this ball was black space. I've remembered this every day of my life.
I was raised by a socialist atheist. I thought that Jesus was the Christmas baby and had something to do with the Easter bunny. I had no interest in religion.
In 1973, when I was 14, I was nagged into going to church, only agreeing to go if he would stop bugging me. He agreed.
I found the service, Pentecostal, to be extremely unappealing. At the time, I was doing my best to be a hippy.
When it ended, a guy came to me, opened a bible and read John 3:16 to me. I instantly saw somewhere else. About 3 feet in front of me was a curtain.
A hand holding a sword thrust through it, plunging the sword deep into my belly, along with the knowledge that what he'd just read was true. I have never been able to stop believing it, though for many years I tried.
In 1994, I walked into a church, where I met my Father. Our hearts have been one ever since, though I've been anything but a typical Christian.
For me, I can't lose my salvation. Shalom.
 
Yes, I agree that God draws us to Him, but there are so many that their hearts are so hardened and wicked as they have made their own choice to reject Him as they refuse His calling them.
Never implied I was reformed .I do address this thread or such like to show that either side isn't heritical .
 
Thats simple, I agree with the writer and you dont, the reason why is what the writer has written which you obviously dont agree with.

Brightfame, I was asking you to discuss the passage with me. I already knew you agreed with him and didn't agree with me. :)

Never mind. Maybe we'll have better luck next time.
 
I've studied the scriptures for decades, I've heard most, if not all the major slants, and I've come to a conclusion.
When I turned 2, I recalled that my first memory was being conscious, and what appeared to be about 7 feet in front of me, was a ball of pure, white, light. Shining out from it a little and thickly clustered, where white rays. All around this ball was black space. I've remembered this every day of my life.
I was raised by a socialist atheist. I thought that Jesus was the Christmas baby and had something to do with the Easter bunny. I had no interest in religion.
In 1973, when I was 14, I was nagged into going to church, only agreeing to go if he would stop bugging me. He agreed.
I found the service, Pentecostal, to be extremely unappealing. At the time, I was doing my best to be a hippy.
When it ended, a guy came to me, opened a bible and read John 3:16 to me. I instantly saw somewhere else. About 3 feet in front of me was a curtain.
A hand holding a sword thrust through it, plunging the sword deep into my belly, along with the knowledge that what he'd just read was true. I have never been able to stop believing it, though for many years I tried.
In 1994, I walked into a church, where I met my Father. Our hearts have been one ever since, though I've been anything but a typical Christian.
For me, I can't lose my salvation. Shalom.

I honestly don't know that I could lose mine at this point. If Satan had gotten to me very early and put a REALLY good offer on the table (especially regarding sexual temptations), I might have considered it.

Those days are gone now. Today there's nothing he could offer me in this entire world. I'd laugh in his face, Lol.
 
Never implied I was reformed .I do address this thread or such like to show that either side isn't heritical .
I never said you were reformed. The whole thing with threads like this it becomes a battle between having or not having freewill. Many people teach that man either has no freewill (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. I only give what I have studied about this subject and give the scriptures, but it's up to others to believe how they want.
 
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