Do you believe in predestination ?

[Consecrated Life]

Consecrated Life my brother.
Yeah. I see it very clearly too from my point of view, as it has been down through the ages. We get to exercise our love for each other, as more important than our final outcome of our thinking and our separate opinions.
I love that.
Exercising love over opinion. the way it should always be.
We come here centered in Christ's love, after we pray before we come here, asking God to provide us the love we need for others before we come here for discussion.
To me, that's just AWESOME.
Who cares about who's right or wrong about predestination.
We get to love each other in the Lord, regardless of what we think.
Do you find that exciting?
I sure do!

Seasoned By Grace ,
The discussion of Predestination & Love are not mutually exclusive .
In fact long before you first addressed me in this thread I prior questioned the void that existed in this predestination thread of any mention whatsoever pertaining to the gift of love for the lost and suffering in spiritual need coming forth from the predestined .

"Still interested in hearing the Spiritual application of belief in predestination's fruits in feeding the spiritually hungry , giving drink to the spiritually thirsty, clothing the spiritually naked, visiting those alone in spiritual prison ?
When you come across these people in such spiritual desperation do you really believe they are in need of hearing how they too can have a predestined badge of preferment pinned to themselves ?
Or is there some infinitely more paramount truth that you think they need to hear about first and foremost ?"

" The Word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart,
that is the Word of faith , which we preach .
That if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saved."
( Romans 10: 8-9 )

That was post #100 by the way, and I even brought up this lack of love being mentioned prior to that post.

Curious then to me that with your emphasis on loving that my bringing up the void existing in this thread of any mention of love by the predestined for the spiritually blind, the spiritually poor , the spiritually alone & suffering, you never commented, or chimed in at all ?

Better late than never though and I am glad my brother to have you join me in recognizing this complete absence of any mention of God's purpose of predestination in our being ambassadors of His Love in this thread.
So why do you think there is complete absence of any mention of the predestined preaching the Love of God to the lost and spiritually thirsty from this thread ?
For me predestination and the giving out of the Love of God follow one another as night follows day .
You must have some opinion on why not one word of Love being brought to a selfish & yet unsatisfied world by the predestined has been uttered here ?
After all Predestination is completely fireless orthodoxy with no Love of God being given out to those in desperate need of this Love .
Living water of Love given out to those drinking at the dirty cisterns of this world .

God Bless You + Brother

 

[Vince]

Brethren, I appreciate the Christian courtesy and reasonableness that the posters on this thread are using.

But there is a problem with philosophy. One Godly poster stated that if you can choose to accept Christ, you control God by forcing Him to save you. Scripture teaches that God did indeed bind Himself to save everybody who calls on Him, but that is God's choice, not ours.

And assigning non-Biblical definitions to words does not make those definitions true. Nowhere does the Bible use the word "predestination" to describe all events, nor does Scripture ever make predestination unconditional.

And there is still the problem of reading the word "unconditionally" into verses, changing the meaning of the verse. For instance , Romans 8:28 does not tell us "... them who are unconditionally called according to his unconditional purpose." Without adding the word "unconditionally," the verse tells us that God's purpose is to save everyone who calls on Him, and that He then works in them to make them like Himself.

 

[SolaScriptura]

“And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:1-10)

Some Bible versions, like the King James version, render the first verse, “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins”. Note that the words “hath he quickened”, are in in italics, which means there are not part of the original Greek, which is “και υμας οντας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν και ταις αμαρτιαις”. I would like anyone to show from the Greek here, where they find the words, “hath he quickened”. It does not exist!

Paul in this passage, is telling Christians, that they “once walked…once lived”, in sinful lives, pleasing their sinful passions, and were naturally “children of wrath”, like the rest of the people in this world. Paul the goes on to show these Christians, that even though they were spiritually “dead”, that it was the Lord, Who is Rich in Mercy, “made us alive together with Christ”, and it is by His Grace that we are born-again, and not by any good works that we have, or can do. There is absolutely nothing in this passage that says, that God first “quickens” the sinner, so that they then have the “ability”, to call on the Lord for salvation. No. This is something that those who teach this unbiblical nonsense, want us to believe, is from the Holy Bible, as some also try to force John 3:1-8, to show this same teaching, which is not there either!

In Romans 6:11, Paul uses very similar language, “Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord”. Paul is here telling the believer, that they should as Christians, consider themselves now "dead" in regard to their sins; and "alive", because of their new birth which God has done through Jesus Christ.

All Paul is doing, is showing the sinner who has been “saved”, that this was not because of any human “efforts”, where we, by our “good works”, can some how “appease” God of His Just wrath against us, and thereby save us by what “good”, that we have done. Our salvation is not because of what “we have done”, but based on the Great Mercy, Love, and Forgiveness of our Great God. Notice, that there is no mention here of any “faith”, as a requirement for salvation, because Paul is not here dealing with this, but showing that we are saved not because or own “merits”, but by Grace alone. Paul is contrasting the old life of the saved believer, with their lives before in this sinful world that they live in. Nothing else should be read into this.

This passage in no way removes the fact, that for the sinner to be saved, they must “repent” of their sins (Mark 1:15; Luke 24:47; Acts 2:37-38; 3:19, etc), and “believe” in the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Gospel as a whole (Mark 1:15, 16:16; Hebrews 11:6, etc). Regardless of what some might teach, that all that a person requires for their salvation, is to just “believe”, this is NOT what the Bible Teaches, as “Repentance from sins and Faith in Jesus Christ”, are the Bible way for true salvation.

 

[Christ the King]

Salvation...

Is it through faith?
Is it through works?
Is it through baptism?

Well maybe its through none of them...
Maybe its not up to us at all...
Maybe we are predestined...

I don't know for sure... There is scripture to support all of the views therefore i cannot be certain of either

 

[Vince]

I THINK my friend Sola Scriptura is saying that the doctrine that God makes unsaved people spiritually alive so that they can accept Christ is unscriptural. If so, he is correct.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Salvation...

Is it through faith?
Is it through works?
Is it through baptism?

Well maybe its through none of them...
Maybe its not up to us at all...
Maybe we are predestined...

I don't know for sure... There is scripture to support all of the views therefore i cannot be certain of either

what does Jesus Himself say in Mark 1:15? "REPENT and BELIEVE", which is required by all sinners if they want to get saved from their sins, and go to heaven. NO "good works", or "water baptism" can ever save anyone!

 

[SolaScriptura]

I THINK my friend Sola Scriptura is saying that the doctrine that God makes unsaved people spiritually alive so that they can accept Christ is unscriptural. If so, he is correct.

Exactly what I am saying, which is a FALSE teaching of the Reformed/Calvinists. It is very clear from the Bible, that "faith comes from the hearing of the Gospel being preached" (Romans 10:17), which leads the convicted sinner to "repent of their sins". The teaching of "election to salvation", is a human invention, and has ZERO support in the Bible.

 

[Christ the King]

what does Jesus Himself say in Mark 1:15? "REPENT and BELIEVE", which is required by all sinners if they want to get saved from their sins, and go to heaven. NO "good works", or "water baptism" can ever save anyone!

And there is also the scripture that says you will be judged on what you do and the scripture that says we are predestined...

How can you be certain which one it is?

Besides, you don't want to be showing up with bad deeds anyway. Especially unrepentant ones

 

[SolaScriptura]

And there is also the scripture that says you will be judged on what you do and the scripture that says we are predestined...

How can you be certain which one it is?

Besides, you don't want to be showing up with bad deeds anyway. Especially unrepentant ones

getting saved is a personal CHOICE, as we read in Joshua 24:15, for example,

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

God does not CHOOSE for us!

 

[Vince]

John 6:44 is another verse that teaches Calvinism IF you add words: "
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me chooses unconditionally to draw him..." which contradicts the next verse.

John 6:45 explains "
It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me—…"

All people are taught by God, and those who respond to this drawing come to Him. Without that drawing, no one could come to Christ.

 

[Fastfredy0]

John 6:44 is another verse that teaches Calvinism IF you add words: "
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me chooses unconditionally to draw him..." which contradicts the next verse.

Dude, you shouldn't subvert bible texts.
The word UNCONDITIONALLY was inserted into the text by YOU!

• NET© No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
• NIV© "No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
• NASB© "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• ESV© No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
• NLT© For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
• MSG© You’re not in charge here. The Father who sent me is in charge. He draws people to me-that’s the only way you’ll ever come. Only then do I do my work, putting people together, setting them on their feet, ready for the End.
• BBE© No man is able to come to me if the Father who sent me does not give him the desire to come: and I will take him up from the dead on the last day.
• NKJV© "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
• NRSV© No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day.
• KJV© No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Vince]

My friend Fred is correct. I inserted the words "chooses unconditionally." They change the meaning of the verse so that it teaches Calvinism and contradicts the next verse.

Continuing: Does God teach all men, or only some? "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us..." Titus 2:11-12

God draws all men to Himself by teaching them. Without that drawing, no one could be saved. And those who respond to that drawing come to Christ.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Dude, you shouldn't subvert bible texts.
The word UNCONDITIONALLY was inserted into the text by YOU!

• NET© No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
• NIV© "No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
• NASB© "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• ESV© No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
• NLT© For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
• MSG© You’re not in charge here. The Father who sent me is in charge. He draws people to me-that’s the only way you’ll ever come. Only then do I do my work, putting people together, setting them on their feet, ready for the End.
• BBE© No man is able to come to me if the Father who sent me does not give him the desire to come: and I will take him up from the dead on the last day.
• NKJV© "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
• NRSV© No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day.
• KJV© No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Dude, how is this any problem with the fact that every human being is covered in the Death of Jesus Christ? No one ever disputes that fact, that ALL sinners must be "convicted" by God the Holy Spirit, of their sins (John 16:8-10), who only then can "call on the Name of the Lord", for their salvation? This is very clear from Acts 2, when, after Peter had preached the Gospel, that those who heard him, were "cut to the heart" (v.37), and turned to the Disciples and said, "what must we DO"? To which Peter responds, "REPENT...for the forgiveness of your sins" (v.38).

You are trying to wrest the Word of God to fit your theology!

 

[Fastfredy0]

Continuing: Does God teach all men, or only some? "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us..." Titus 2:11-12

God draws all men to Himself by teaching them. Without that drawing, no one could be saved. And those who respond to that drawing come to Christ.

If by ALL you mean everyone without exception then your statement is a demonstrable false hood.

Since Christ's death billions of people have died with no knowledge of Him. Thus, God does not draw everyone without exception to Himself. https://reachbeyond.org/Advocate/RBActionGuide.pdf
Since those who have reached the age of accountability must have heard of Christ to be saved, all those in the above sentence are in hell per:

• John 14:6 No one comes to the Father except through me".
• And the Apostle Peter confirms, Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved".
• Matthew 11:27b and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son [deliberately] wills to reveal Him.
• John 12:48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
• Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among people by which we must be saved [for God has provided the world no alternative for salvation].”
• Romans 3:10 As it is written and forever remains written, “There is none righteous [none that meets God’s standard], not even one.11 “There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God. 12 “All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, no, not one.”
• Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law, though it is [actually] confirmed by the Law and the [words and writings of the] Prophets. 22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction, 23 since all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are being justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,

Without that drawing, no one could be saved. And those who respond to that drawing come to Christ.

Agreed. God chooses/elects/predestines/efficaciously draws or call/appoints those who He chooses to adopt as sons and daughters. Obviously, those who have never heard of Christ are NOT drawn, chosen, predestined.

This is even more clear for the billions of people who never reached the age of accountability. By definition, they cannot respond to the Gospel message. If they are saved, it logically cannot be self-determined by said individuals.

Aside: Thanks for pointing out that you edited John 6:44. That's a no-no.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Dude, how is this any problem with the fact that every human being is covered in the Death of Jesus Christ?

You shown in the past that you don't respond to questions. Thus I will not give you an explanation.

No one ever disputes that fact, that ALL sinners must be "convicted" by God the Holy Spirit, of their sins (John 16:8-10), who only then can "call on the Name of the Lord", for their salvation? This is very clear from Acts 2, when, after Peter had preached the Gospel, that those who heard him, were "cut to the heart" (v.37), and turned to the Disciples and said, "what must we DO"? To which Peter responds, "REPENT...for the forgiveness of your sins" (v.38).

No, sense responding as you don't answer questions.

Aside: You are trying to wrest the Word of God to fit your theology!

 

[SolaScriptura]

If by ALL you mean everyone without exception then your statement is a demonstrable false hood

John Calvin, had this to say on this verse:

“That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”

So, John Calvin, who is supposed to be the ultimate "Calvinist", is false in saying what he does here???

 

[SolaScriptura]

You shown in the past that you don't respond to questions. Thus I will not give you an explanation.


No, sense responding as you don't answer questions.

Aside: You are trying to wrest the Word of God to fit your theology!

because what you write is usually lame "reformed" arguments that are so not Bible!

 

[Vince]

Continuing the discussion:

Jesus said "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” The Greek word "draw" is the same word Jesus used when He said that no one can be saved unless the Father draw him. The next verse shows that the Father draws all men to Christ by teaching them.

As far as Jesus Himself drawing all men to Himself, John 1:9 tells us "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." Jesus draws all people to Himself by enlightening them; the Father draws all men to Christ by teaching them.

 

[Vince]

The discussion continues with Romans 9:18:"“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he unconditionally will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth unconditionally.”

Nonsense

God wills to have mercy on anyone who comes to Him. There are Old Testament cases of people humbling themselves and receiving mercy without being saved, such as Ahab. But God's mercy is not unconditional.

Sometimes God gives men the strength and courage they need to destroy themselves in their own sin, but this is not unconditional. Pharaoh had long rejected God's commands before God destroyed him. Pharaoh was not an innocent man whom God forced to sin; Pharaoh chose to sin for a long time, under heavy pressure, before God gave him the strength and courage to destroy himself. God's decision to harden Pharaoh's heart was not unconditional.

 

[Edward]

Salvation...

Is it through faith?
Is it through works?
Is it through baptism?

Well maybe its through none of them...
Maybe its not up to us at all...
Maybe we are predestined...

I don't know for sure... There is scripture to support all of the views therefore i cannot be certain of either

I've been chewing on this topic some and looked at it from a slightly different perspective for a moment.

Has anyone ever heard that God wrote a book about each of us before the foundation of the world? I remember this for a long time but don't know the scripture off the top of my head. Ok waitaminute...

Psalm 139:15-17
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!.../

...when as yet there were none of them, so...before the foundation of the world, right? That was easy to find. Yay Google lol.

So maybe it is possible for predestination of every person born on earth and at the same time allow us complete free will and able to make our own choices. I'll explain.

If God wrote an adventure story of His plan for our lives and has it...why then is there no predestination? For He has wrote the book and planned it all out. BUT!! We simply must obey our Lord. And if we do, then our future is predestined and God can flip to the last page and see how it turns out for us.

No one can do this. The only person who has never disobeyed God, was Jesus Himself. Remember He said, I only do what the Father says and I only do what I see the Father do. So Jesus never disobeyed God's will and plan for His life.

But a regular person? Along comes Edward into God's predestination for him, and...well, Edward has a track record showing where he disobeyed God regularly for awhile. I made my own decisions with my free will and deviated from God's plan for my life. ...must stay in God's will...

So how's that? Does that make sense? We can have predestination but it requires our participation in that, we have to obey. Listen to God and immediately obey.

(Tadaa!!!)