Bible Study Do You Know Where the New Covenant is, in the Bible ?

[Restin]

Inward Truth Prevails

The problem is that you must be a Jew OUTWARDLY before you can be a Jew. If you're not a Jew outwardly, then you're a Gentile. If you're a Gentile, there is nowhere in the bible that says you can become Jewish.

This was the problem in the early christian community, after the return of Jesus to heaven. People do not discern the difference between what is inward and what is outward. Carried down to today -- many so called christians claim that 'outward' confession and performance is enough.

Titus 1:13 For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
NASU

Outwardly keeping the commandments is nothing more than a myth!

In this I would have to stay with the verses quoted by Jay T

"But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God" (Romans 2:29).
AND.....
"For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people", (Hebrews 8:10)

Inward Truth Prevails.......

 

[ddubsolo85]

ddubsolo85 wrote:
The problem is that you must be a Jew OUTWARDLY before you can be a Jew. If you're not a Jew outwardly, then you're a Gentile. If you're a Gentile, there is nowhere in the bible that says you can become Jewish.

Jay T: "But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God", (Romans 2:29).
Quote:

ddub: This is a statement TO the Jews. You must first be a Jew outwardly before you can be one inwardly. If you are not a Jew outwardly first, then you have no opportunity to be one inwardly. If you are born a Gentile, then you will remain a Gentile for the duration of your life. You can become a saved Gentile, but a Gentile nonetheless. It is the same with a Jew. You can be born Jewish, but a true Jew is born again, as Jesus declared one must be to Nicodemus.

It would be as if a Black man wanted to become a White man. No matter what he did inwardly, he would always be a Black man. He could never be White (and vice-versa).

You can have salvation, but that is given to both Jew and Gentile. There is no place that says a Gentile becomes a Jew. Romans doesn't say that.

Jay T: Then, how can you come under the 'NEW' Covenant, then ?

ddub: You can't. That would be my point. The New Covenant is specifically for Jews, not for Gentiles. Nowhere does the bible say the New Covenant is for Gentiles. On top of that, nowhere does the bible say the New Covenant is even here yet.

God Bless!

 

[ddubsolo85]

ddubsolo85 wrote:
The problem is that you must be a Jew OUTWARDLY before you can be a Jew. If you're not a Jew outwardly, then you're a Gentile. If you're a Gentile, there is nowhere in the bible that says you can become Jewish.

Restin: This was the problem in the early christian community, after the return of Jesus to heaven. People do not discern the difference between what is inward and what is outward. Carried down to today -- many so called christians claim that 'outward' confession and performance is enough.

Quote:
Titus 1:13 For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
NASU

Outwardly keeping the commandments is nothing more than a myth!

ddub: I couldn't agree with you more. However, I'm not discussing anyone's actions, I'm discussing what someone is, and not by choice. What you are inwardly would involve choice. What you are outwardly (by way of birth) is not by choice.

I hope you see the difference.

God Bless!

 

[evanman]

As Paul wrote, "We are the circumcision made without hands!"

No we are NOT Spiritual Jews, we are Children of God and as such are counted amongst the Commonwealth of Israel! Grafted into the Vine (Christ Jesus) so that we too partake of His Holy Covenant"!

Eph 2:11-22 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[ddubsolo85]

evan: As Paul wrote, "We are the circumcision made without hands!"

No we are NOT Spiritual Jews, we are Children of God and as such are counted amongst the Commonwealth of Israel! Grafted into the Vine (Christ Jesus) so that we too partake of His Holy Covenant"!

ddub: I couldn't agree with you more. But the question is, WHICH COVENANT? The bible says it's the Old Covenant;

Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the FIRST TESTAMENT, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

ddub: Do you disagree with this assessment?

 

[evanman]

The Old covenant was a set of Mitzvot (commandments) chiselled on tablets of stone. The keeping of these entailed various ordinances and rituals.

The New Mitzvah means that these same commandments become chiselled in the hearts and minds of belivers. The keeping of these no longer entails the keeping of the same sorts of ordinances and rituals.

The former has been disanulled and a New and Living way has been established. The former has been completed and fulfilled. The point of the Old Covenant was to reveal to people their sin and need for a Saviour, once this was fulfilled, and the end reached, we have no more need for the Old Covenant.

 

[ddubsolo85]

evan: The Old covenant was a set of Mitzvot (commandments) chiselled on tablets of stone.

ddub: The old covenant was the promise made to Abraham long ago. The commandments chiseled onto stone were added to the promise;

Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

evan: The keeping of these entailed various ordinances and rituals.

The New Mitzvah means that these same commandments become chiselled in the hearts and minds of belivers. The keeping of these no longer entails the keeping of the same sorts of ordinances and rituals.

ddub: The promise given to Abraham INCLUDED Gentiles from the beginning. This promise was the Old Covenant.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

ddub: Gentiles were always meant to be included in the seed of Christ. Gentiles were included in the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant.
I'm not discussing the ordinances and rituals. They would be a part of the law. I'm discussing the promise, the Old Covenant, which the law was added to. Jews and Gentiles were always meant to be a part of that together as one seed in Christ. That is a part of the Old Covenant.

evan: The former has been disanulled and a New and Living way has been established. The former has been completed and fulfilled.

ddub: I can find nothing to support this claim in the bible. The New has been established, on that I agree. But nothing says that the former has been disanulled or completed. And if it is fulfilled, that would mean it has been allowed to function as it was intended to function.

evan: The point of the Old Covenant was to reveal to people their sin and need for a Saviour, once this was fulfilled, and the end reached, we have no more need for the Old Covenant.

ddub: No, that was the purpose of the law which was added to the Old Covenant. They are two different things. When the law was added to the Old Covenant, it prevented those under it to find grace. When Jesus removed the ability of the law to inhibit, the grace within the Old Covenant could be found. The original intention of the Old Covenant could be realized;

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

ddub: So it was already written that salvation would come to the Gentiles, and it was promised in the Old Covenant. The New Covenant, however, is not to include Gentiles. It isn't for Gentiles.

God Bless!

 

[Jay T]

ddubsolo85 wrote:
The problem is that you must be a Jew OUTWARDLY before you can be a Jew. If you're not a Jew outwardly, then you're a Gentile. If you're a Gentile, there is nowhere in the bible that says you can become Jewish.

Jay T: "But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God", (Romans 2:29).
Quote:

ddub: This is a statement TO the Jews. You must first be a Jew outwardly before you can be one inwardly. If you are not a Jew outwardly first, then you have no opportunity to be one inwardly. If you are born a Gentile, then you will remain a Gentile for the duration of your life. You can become a saved Gentile, but a Gentile nonetheless. It is the same with a Jew. You can be born Jewish, but a true Jew is born again, as Jesus declared one must be to Nicodemus.

It would be as if a Black man wanted to become a White man. No matter what he did inwardly, he would always be a Black man. He could never be White (and vice-versa).

You can have salvation, but that is given to both Jew and Gentile. There is no place that says a Gentile becomes a Jew. Romans doesn't say that.

Jay T: Then, how can you come under the 'NEW' Covenant, then ?

ddub: You can't. That would be my point. The New Covenant is specifically for Jews, not for Gentiles. Nowhere does the bible say the New Covenant is for Gentiles. On top of that, nowhere does the bible say the New Covenant is even here yet.

God Bless!

Well, according to your ideas....there will be no gentiles in heaven.
Too bad for you.

 

[ddubsolo85]

Jay T: Well, according to your ideas....there will be no gentiles in heaven.
Too bad for you.

ddub: Why would there be no gentiles in heaven? Where does that come from? You don't have to be under the New Covenant to go to heaven, you only need salvation. The bible says salvation came under the Old Covenant (Hbr 9:15).

So I'm not really sure how you come to that conclusion.

God Bless!

 

[Restin]

The Old dies, The New LIVES!

The bible says salvation came under the Old Covenant (Hbr 9:15).

• Heb 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
  16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
  17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
  
  1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
  NASU, emphasis supplied

ddub --- YES! ---The death of Jesus Christ, the Son of God,
paid the 'redemption for transgressions committed under the first (old) covenant'.

But Jesus isn't DEAD anymore ---- He is Risen ----

"He is the mediator of a new covenant" -- "the promise of the eternal inheritance"
The old covenant has no 'force' or hold on Jesus, because He is risen to live
'under grace' -- the NEW COVENANT -- with promise!
1 Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Praise God!

 

[Vic C.]

Why would there be no gentiles in heaven? Where does that come from? You don't have to be under the New Covenant to go to heaven, you only need salvation. The bible says salvation came under the Old Covenant (Hbr 9:15)....God Bless!

Hello there. I'm not certain this is what 9:15 is implying. This may explain it better than I.

Holman's Bible Dictionary

In the New Testament only Hebrews makes covenant a central theological theme. The emphasis is on Jesus, the perfect High Priest, providing a new, better, superior covenant (Heb. 7:22; 8:6). Jesus represented the fulfillment of Jeremiah's new covenant promise (Heb. 8:8,10; 10:16). Jesus was the perfect covenant Mediator (Heb. 9:15), providing an eternal inheritance in a way the old covenant could not (compare 12:24). Jesus' death on the cross satisfied the requirement that all covenants be established by blood (Heb. 9:18,20) just as was the first covenant (Ex. 24:8). Christ's blood established an everlasting covenant (Heb. 13:20). If Israel suffered for breaking the Sinai covenant (Heb. 8:9-10), how much more should people expect to suffer if they have "counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing" (Heb. 10:29).

 

[Restin]

He is Risen

Jay T: Then, how can you come under the 'NEW' Covenant, then ?

ddub: You can't. That would be my point. The New Covenant is specifically for Jews, not for Gentiles. Nowhere does the bible say the New Covenant is for Gentiles. On top of that, nowhere does the bible say the New Covenant is even here yet.

• Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man,
  there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

ddub: --- While religion, gender, politics, do not exist in Jesus Christ
-- Jesus is the NEW COVENANT -- the seed of promise!

1 Cor 11:25 This cup is the new covenant in My blood;

Hebrews 9:15,16 "For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant"
... "the promise of the eternal inheritance"
The old covenant has no 'force' or hold on Jesus,
because He is risen to live 'under grace' -- NEW COVENANT Salvation -- with promise!

Praise God
Restin

 

[ddubsolo85]

ddubsolo85 wrote:
The bible says salvation came under the Old Covenant (Hbr 9:15).

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
NASU, emphasis supplied

ddub --- YES! ---The death of Jesus Christ, the Son of God,
paid the 'redemption for transgressions committed under the first (old) covenant'.

Restin: But Jesus isn't DEAD anymore ---- He is Risen ----

"He is the mediator of a new covenant" -- "the promise of the eternal inheritance"
The old covenant has no 'force' or hold on Jesus, because He is risen to live

ddub: Take a close look at Hbr 8:6

Hbr 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Christ *OBTAINED* (past tense) a more excellent ministry. That is what he BROUGHT (past tense.

Now, he is ALSO the mediator of something else. He is the mediator of a better covenant (New Covenant). This IS NOT what he BROUGHT (past tense), but what he established.

Therefore, he BROUGHT salvation to the Old Covenant, and he established the way for the New Covenant to come.

Restin: 'under grace' -- the NEW COVENANT -- with promise!
1 Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

ddub: But you list no scriptures that say the New Covenant came, that the New Covenant brought grace. I listed for you a scripture that says grace came under the Old Covenant (Hbr 9:15).

God Bless!

 

[ddubsolo85]

ddubsolo85 wrote:
Why would there be no gentiles in heaven? Where does that come from? You don't have to be under the New Covenant to go to heaven, you only need salvation. The bible says salvation came under the Old Covenant (Hbr 9:15)....God Bless!

Vic: Hello there. I'm not certain this is what 9:15 is implying. This may explain it better than I.

Holman's Bible Dictionary
Quote:
In the New Testament only Hebrews makes covenant a central theological theme. The emphasis is on Jesus, the perfect High Priest, providing a new, better, superior covenant (Heb. 7:22; 8:6).

ddub: The bible says Jesus established a new covenant, NOT that he provided a new covenant. Provided the way for a new covenant, but not that he provided a new covenant.

Holman: Jesus represented the fulfillment of Jeremiah's new covenant promise (Heb. 8:8,10; 10:16).

ddub: No scriptures say Jesus represented the fulfillment of the New Covenant promise. This would be Holman's opinion, wouldn't it? It does say Jesus established the New Covenant, but not that he fulfilled it.

God Bless!

 

[ddubsolo85]

ddubsolo85 wrote:
Jay T: Then, how can you come under the 'NEW' Covenant, then ?

ddub: You can't. That would be my point. The New Covenant is specifically for Jews, not for Gentiles. Nowhere does the bible say the New Covenant is for Gentiles. On top of that, nowhere does the bible say the New Covenant is even here yet.

Jay T: Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man,
there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

ddub: It's clear that both Jew and Gentile are in Christ, and are equal in that. The promise of salvation is for both. However, this says nothing of the new covenant. Whenever the new covenant is spoken of, it is promised to Israel period.

ddub: --- While religion, gender, politics, do not exist in Jesus Christ
-- Jesus is the NEW COVENANT -- the seed of promise!

Jay T: 1 Cor 11:25 This cup is the new covenant in My blood;

ddub: When will they drink it new? (Mat 26:28).

Jay T: Hebrews 9:15,16 "For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant"
... "the promise of the eternal inheritance"
The old covenant has no 'force' or hold on Jesus,
because He is risen to live 'under grace' -- NEW COVENANT Salvation -- with promise!

ddub: The old covenant was OBTAINED, and the new covenant was ESTABLISHED. That means one is here, and the other has the way set for it. The bible never says the old covenant ended. Why is that? The bible never says the new covenant is here. Why is that? If it were so, wouldn't the bible say so on such an important issue?

God Bless!

 

[evanman]

ddub: The promise given to Abraham INCLUDED Gentiles from the beginning. This promise was the Old Covenant.

This is where you are mistaken. The Old Covenant was NOT made between God and Abraham. The Old Covenant was made between God and Israel via MOSES!

The covenant was between God and Israel!

What God established with Abraham was a promise, also called "The Blessing". The Blessing !

Psa 133:3 As the dew of Hermon, [and as the dew] that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, [even] life for evermore.

It was for the cause of this Blessing that Jacob conned issac. It was because of this Blessing that Esau hated his brother.

Gen 28:4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[ddubsolo85]

Quote:
ddub: The promise given to Abraham INCLUDED Gentiles from the beginning. This promise was the Old Covenant.

evan: This is where you are mistaken. The Old Covenant was NOT made between God and Abraham. The Old Covenant was made between God and Israel via MOSES!

The covenant was between God and Israel!

What God established with Abraham was a promise, also called "The Blessing". The Blessing !Quote:
Psa 133:3 As the dew of Hermon, [and as the dew] that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, [even] life for evermore.

ddub: Maybe we'd better back up a bit. What is it that you consider to be the Old Covenant?

 

[Restin]

Old covenant

ddub: Maybe we'd better back up a bit. What is it that you consider to be the Old Covenant?

Exodus 34:27 Then the LORD said to Moses, " Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."
28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

2 Corinthians 3:5 but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

• Old covenant as compared in 2 Cor 3:5-9
  .....the letter
  .....ministry of death
  .....in letters engraved on stones
  .....came with glory
  .....ministry of condemnation
  
  New Covenant
  .....made us adequate as servants of a new covenant
  .....of the spirit
  .....gives life
  .....the ministry of the spirit -- more with glory
  .....ministry of righteousness

With trust and hope in a better covenant -- the New Covenant!

 

[ddubsolo85]

Quote:
ddub: Maybe we'd better back up a bit. What is it that you consider to be the Old Covenant?

Exodus 34:27 Then the LORD said to Moses, " Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."
28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

ddub: That's what I suspected. Now I see the reasons for the confusion. What Moses was given was the law. (The law is "A" covenant). What Abraham was given was the Old Covenant. The law and the Old Covenant are two different things. The law was ADDED to the Old Covenant;

Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

ddub: As you can see, the law (given to Moses) was ADDED to the Old Covenant 430 years after it was given to Abraham. As Moses states, the law covenant was not the covenant "made with our fathers", which is the Old Covenant;

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Deu 5:3 The LORD made NOT this covenant with our fathers, but with us, [even] us, who [are] all of us here alive this day.

ddub: Moses declares that what he was given was not the Old Covenant which was given to Abraham, as it's not the covenant "made with our fathers", and the Old Covenant was.

The covenant being spoken of is the one given to Abraham at Gen 12:3;

Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Restin: 2 Corinthians 3:5 but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

Old covenant as compared in 2 Cor 3:5-9
.....the letter

ddub: That would be the law.

.....ministry of death

ddub: That would be what the law brought to the Old Covenant.

.....in letters engraved on stones

ddub: Again, that's the law, not the Old Covenant.

.....came with glory

ddub: The Old Covenant came with glory.

.....ministry of condemnation

ddub: Because of what the law brought.

New Covenant
.....made us adequate as servants of a new covenant

ddub: Servants, NOT recipients.

.....of the spirit

ddub: As are all of God's covenants.

.....gives life

ddub: Eternal life? Came under the Old Covenant (Hbr 9:15).

.....the ministry of the spirit -- more with glory

ddub: A more excellent ministry was OBTAINED, which is Old Covenant.

.....ministry of righteousness
With trust and hope in a better covenant -- the New Covenant!

ddub: Notice that the more excellent ministry has been obtained, and the better covenant has only been established.

God Bless!

 

[Jay T]

Jay T: Well, according to your ideas....there will be no gentiles in heaven.
Too bad for you.

[quote:abb0d]
ddub: Why would there be no gentiles in heaven? Where does that come from?[quote:abb0d] You don't have to be under the New Covenant to go to heaven,

Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (Revelation 22:14)

you only need Salvation..

[/quote:abb0d][/quote:abb0d]And what is salvation ?
The Christian world has yet to understand what it is !!!

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people [from] their sins.

The Christian world teaches that God will save you [in] your sins......NOT !

The truth is....1 John3:9 "Whosoever is born of God [doth not] commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God".