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Doctrine of the Trinity

Obadiah said:
That's fine if it is only a direct answer to a question asked directly of the member (as you have asked in this post I quoted here) and the answer does not drift into contending for non-Christian beliefs. If you read the last several posts in this thread carefully I think you will notice I have allowed many of those posts that were answers to direct questions to remain. (I personally don't delete or edit anything without leaving an obvious note behind so that readers can understand the post is no longer complete in the way the writer posted it, and the writer can understand the reason for the edit or deletion.) But if anyone goes beyond just a direct answer by arguing for or trying to convince others of a truth of non-Christian beliefs, that will be considered a violation of the ToS and will be removed. The rules are pretty clear about this. This is a Christian forum and not a place for non-Christians to try to publicly convince Christians that their Christian beliefs are wrong, not even in a debate forum.
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I have noticed your lenience. Assuredly, jocor's reply will contradict Christian beliefs; so I would add to my question for jocor, that he fully expound his viewpoint without attempting to convince readers.
 
th1b.taylor said:
You continue with this false assertion even though you have been given John 1:1-3 by me earlier and you did not respond, why?
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I did not respond to John 1:1-3 because I addressed it in an earlier post. You are reading Messiah into the text. Versions that preceded the KJV translated the logos as an "it", not a "he".
 
Gregg said:
Who is Jesus to you? Please be candid and comprehensive.

I would ask the moderators to allow his full answer to remain posted.
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He is my Lord (not my "LORD") and my Savior. He is my sanctification, my atoning sacrifice, my righteousness, my wisdom, my redeemer, my hope of glory. He is my strength in this life, my anchor, my shepherd, my Passover Lamb, my mediator between me and my God, my soon coming King, my beloved who I am betrothed to. He is the Messiah, the SON of the living God (the living God being Yahweh, Yeshua's Father, a totally separate being from Yeshua). He is my head, my rest, my High Priest, the author and finisher of my faith, my light and my intercessor. He is my elohim/mighty one, but not my Elohim. He is my elder brother, but not my Heavenly Father. He is the only way for me to dwell forever in the presence of my Heavenly Father Yahweh. He is my resurrection and my life. Without him I have no hope of living forever in the Kingdom of Yahweh.
 
jocor said:
He is my Lord (not my "LORD") and my Savior. He is my sanctification, my atoning sacrifice, my righteousness, my wisdom, my redeemer, my hope of glory. He is my strength in this life, my anchor, my shepherd, my Passover Lamb, my mediator between me and my God, my soon coming King, my beloved who I am betrothed to. He is the Messiah, the SON of the living God (the living God being Yahweh, Yeshua's Father, a totally separate being from Yeshua). He is my head, my rest, my High Priest, the author and finisher of my faith, my light and my intercessor. He is my elohim/mighty one, but not my Elohim. He is my elder brother, but not my Heavenly Father. He is the only way for me to dwell forever in the presence of my Heavenly Father Yahweh. He is my resurrection and my life. Without him I have no hope of living forever in the Kingdom of Yahweh.
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I guess I should have just asked - Who is Jesus [in your understanding]? Who is that Person?
 
Gregg said:
I guess I should have just asked - Who is Jesus [in your understanding]? Who is that Person?
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He is the Messiah, the Son of the living God (Yahweh). He is the one Yahweh appointed to be the Savior of the world. He is the seed of David who will sit on the throne of Yahweh as he rules over the Kingdom of Yahweh.

If that is not what you are seeking, perhaps you should ask me who he is not.
 
jocor said:
I did not respond to John 1:1-3 because I addressed it in an earlier post. You are reading Messiah into the text. Versions that preceded the KJV translated the logos as an "it", not a "he".
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Then you are telling me that God does not influence by revealing what is needed when it is needed?
 
jocor said:
He is my Lord (not my "LORD") and my Savior. He is my sanctification, my atoning sacrifice, my righteousness, my wisdom, my redeemer, my hope of glory. He is my strength in this life, my anchor, my shepherd, my Passover Lamb, my mediator between me and my God, my soon coming King, my beloved who I am betrothed to. He is the Messiah, the SON of the living God (the living God being Yahweh, Yeshua's Father, a totally separate being from Yeshua). He is my head, my rest, my High Priest, the author and finisher of my faith, my light and my intercessor. He is my elohim/mighty one, but not my Elohim. He is my elder brother, but not my Heavenly Father. He is the only way for me to dwell forever in the presence of my Heavenly Father Yahweh. He is my resurrection and my life. Without him I have no hope of living forever in the Kingdom of Yahweh.
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You believe all of this and you do not see the God of both testaments in John 1:1-3? And you believe that it matters that much whether Logos is translated as IT or Word when the rest of the text clearly says Him?

What abouut the contextual influence?
 
th1b.taylor said:
You believe all of this and you do not see the God of both testaments in John 1:1-3? And you believe that it matters that much whether Logos is translated as IT or Word when the rest of the text clearly says Him?
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I see God in both. I just don't see Yeshua as the God in John 1:1-3.

What abouut the contextual influence?
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The context supports my view. If the logos was the Son and the Son is God and the Son was with God the Father, then you have two Gods.
 
Obadiah said:
Actually, that's a direct question addressed to you. This might be a good opportunity for you to give a direct answer, such as yes He does or no He doesn't.
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th1b.taylor said, "Then you are telling me that God does not influence by revealing what is needed when it is needed?"

No, I am not telling you that. Are you telling me that Christians for hundreds of years were wrong because they were believing the logos was an "it", but now they finally have it right?
 
jocor said:
I do believe he is the Word, but I believe he became the Word at his conception, not before. Before Yeshua's conception, I believe the logos was the Father's spoken words and thoughts. His logos became flesh in the person of Yeshua. He spoke His Son into existence.
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Romans 1:19-20
All the discussion of trinity is hidden in creation. To all this wisdom I am still in ignorance. I have some through a glass darkly understanding. The chromosome DNA word is speaking before conception (one side of the plan for Jesus must be in God). This is the prophetic utterance that can speak at creation. Is the physical man (Jesus) manifest yet? No. Is the plan written? Yes. Is the word more than we can conceptualize? Yes. Can Holy Spirit convey completion? Yes. In the original male Adam; all was complete. The rib, with help, brought about Eve. Eve with help brought about Jesus.

Do I understand it all yet? No. The Romans passage says we can understand from nature. Do I feel like a nut drawing us to creation over and over? Yes.

Just taking words to describe trinity; leaves out parts of the story. Hidden in nature / creation is more of the explanation. The ox is the Bishop.

eddif
 
jocor said:
I see God in both. I just don't see Yeshua as the God in John 1:1-3.



The context supports my view. If the logos was the Son and the Son is God and the Son was with God the Father, then you have two Gods.
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No, that is where you err. Although the scriptures do not use the word "Triune or Trinity" it is impossible to refute that the teaching of one God in multiple persons is taught all the way from Genesis 1 when God is quoted as saying "let us create man in our image."

In the context of the first paragraph, verses 1-5 is speaking of Jesus and God is the only being that can create and these verses do point to Jesus as that Creator. I do not, even, pretend to be able to explain anything about God, the Omnipotent Creator, but I am smart enough to follow the instructions in God's Handbook for Humans. God has taught me, a former, devout, Atheist, to live by the faith He requires to enter into the relationship He designed for humans to enjoy with Him. If the Bible says it, I believe it.
 
jocor said:
th1b.taylor said, "Then you are telling me that God does not influence by revealing what is needed when it is needed?"

No, I am not telling you that. Are you telling me that Christians for hundreds of years were wrong because they were believing the logos was an "it", but now they finally have it right?
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No, I am not doing that. But the context of the paragraph makes it clear, translated either way, points to Jesus. The Messiah is an it just as when I was in the Service I was an it when certain points were at issue. What I perceive you doing here is building doctrine based on certain verses and ignoring the context God has inspired to be recorded here.
 
th1b.taylor said:
No, I am not doing that. But the context of the paragraph makes it clear, translated either way, points to Jesus. The Messiah is an it just as when I was in the Service I was an it when certain points were at issue. What I perceive you doing here is building doctrine based on certain verses and ignoring the context God has inspired to be recorded here.
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I do not ignore context. I do, however, refuse to read things into the text. To me, and to men like William Tyndale, the logos was a thing, an "it". He chose not to read the Son into the text and neither will I.
 
jocor said:
I do not ignore context. I do, however, refuse to read things into the text. To me, and to men like William Tyndale, the logos was a thing, an "it". He chose not to read the Son into the text and neither will I.
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Jocor,
You have told Eddif you would love to lay your cards on the table and then you cop out as a coward because you fear the Admin here? God, in His Word has told us 365 times not to fear and the last three verses of the last chapter of Matthew command us to make converts or to move on. Are you that disobedient?
 
Jocor is aware of the rules of our site and he is trying to follow them. If anyone wishes to discuss things that go against our Terms of Service or our Statement of Faith when publicly taught or contended for, they are welcome to do so in Private Messages. Please see my post #176 above.

Obadiah.
 
Obadiah said:
Jocor is aware of the rules of our site and he is trying to follow them. If anyone wishes to discuss things that go against our Terms of Service or our Statement of Faith when publicly taught or contended for, they are welcome to do so in Private Messages. Please see my post #176 above.

Obadiah.
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Jocor,
I will read that PM because it is important to know the person one converses with and the rule is, actually, a good rule because of kids and babes in Christ. Please PM me.
 
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