Doctrine of the Trinity

[Gregg]

I do not believe he pre-existed as a literal being. He did pre-exist in Yahweh's plan of salvation. He began his existence when he was conceived in Miriam's womb. One cannot exist before he exists.

John the Baptist, who was born 6 months before Jesus, said this:

"This One was He of whom I said, 'He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me' " (John 1:15 LITV),

and this:

"This is He about whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has been before me, for He was preceding me' " (John 1:30 LITV).

 

[Sinthesis]

I do not believe he pre-existed as a literal being. He did pre-exist in Yahweh's plan of salvation. He began his existence when he was conceived in Miriam's womb. One cannot exist before he exists.

So you don't believe Christ is the Word?

 

[Malachi]

So you don't believe Christ is the Word?

In fact, the ETERNAL LOGOS. What saith the Scripture?

Quoting Psalm 102: 24-27 and applying it to Christ, the Holy Spirit says "And thou Lord in IN THE BEGINNING hast laid the foundation of earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands..." (Heb 1:10). Here Christ is both Lord and Creator, and in Psalm 102 He is God. He was there before anything was created, because He is the one who created all things. Therefore John 1:1 says "IN THE BEGINNING [before anything was created] was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD" [THEOS]. It cannot get any plainer than that, since Scripture also says ( Psalm 90:2) "...from everlasting to everlasting thou art God" as related to the created universe.

 

[th1b.taylor]

IMO, there is no way any Jew would believe a man born of woman was the Creator of all and Elohim of Israel, especially if that man died. The fact that a dead man resurrected does not prove he was God or else we should believe that Lazarus was God as well. Did anybody say to Lazarus, "My Lord and my God"? No. Thomas knew a dead man could not be God even if he was resurrected.

Jocor,
Opinions, yours, mine, Free´s nor anyone else's matter at all. What God has had recorded is final and not debatable. The truth that you have stated that in your opinion no Jew would believe is very dangerous ground to tread on. Jesus had eleven faithful Jewish followers from the beginning of His ministry (John 6:67-71) and the twelvth, Judas, He knew when He called him that he would betray Him. (Psa. 41:9 & John 6:70- 71) And then there is Saul, a leader of the Jews that when converted, God renamed Paul. Paul was one of the most Doctrine educated men of his day in the Jewish Religion but he spent 3 years at the feet of Jesus (Philippians) learning from the mouth of God.

I do not believe he pre-existed as a literal being. He did pre-exist in Yahweh's plan of salvation. He began his existence when he was conceived in Miriam's womb. One cannot exist before he exists.

Again, you are disputing God? Without God's revelation of the New Testament recording what God has instructed there, there will be no Christianity and in John 1:1-3 it is recorded that Jesus, the Son of God, created everything that was created and nothing was created without Him. But, as it is recorded in Matthew that He was born of Mary and Mary did not exist when He created the Galaxy.

 

[Free]

IMO, there is no way any Jew would believe a man born of woman was the Creator of all and Elohim of Israel, especially if that man died. The fact that a dead man resurrected does not prove he was God or else we should believe that Lazarus was God as well. Did anybody say to Lazarus, "My Lord and my God"? No. Thomas knew a dead man could not be God even if he was resurrected.

As I have stated before, I'm not interested in opinions but in what the Bible actually says. Your argument actually supports my point to a degree. Thomas knew very well that Jesus, as the Son of God, as Messiah, was God in human flesh and worshiped him as such. There simply is no other explanation for Thomas' reaction. You simply cannot keep ignoring the context; you must address it.

I do not believe he pre-existed as a literal being. He did pre-exist in Yahweh's plan of salvation. He began his existence when he was conceived in Miriam's womb. One cannot exist before he exists.

Except Jesus himself said that he existed before Abraham, not to mention the numerous Scriptures that explicitly and implicitly state that he actually preexisted.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (ESV)

 

[jocor]

The blind man did not claim to be God, but Jesus did claim to be God, the Son of God.

Chapter & verse please.

The Messiah was God in the flesh. Abraham and David and Isaiah knew it.

Chapter & verse please.

 

[jocor]

Clearly the word states Jesus Christ is our great God and Savior.

He is the Lord of the Old Testament who became flesh.

By Him are all things and through Him are all things.

Nothing that was made, was made apart from Him.

These are all references to The Creator, YHWH the Lord God.

Are you suggesting an angel was the Creator?

Who do you say Jesus was, before He became flesh?

JLB

You did not address 2Co 4:4.

No, I'm not suggesting an angel was the Creator. Yeshua's Father is the Creator.

I say he did not exist as a living being before he became flesh.

 

[jocor]

Yeshua,

"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuased though one rose from the dead" (Lk 16:31). What you have stated above is manifestly false, and most of your arguments are really quite specious, if not disingenuous.

When Peter preached to thousands of monotheistic Jews in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, he used the resurrection and exaltation of Christ at the right hand of the Father to establish that he is both LORD AND CHRIST (Acts 2:32-36): "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses... For David ...saith... The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand until I make thy foes they footstool. Therefore, let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, both Lord and Christ".

To the unbiased reader who is willing to listen to the Holy Spirit, what Peter was proclaiming to these monotheistic Jews was nothing less than the Deity of Christ on the basis of His resurrection, quoting from the Psalms to prove it!

Psalm 110:1 is proof that Yeshua ("my Lord" - "adoni") is not "Yahweh ("The LORD" - YHWH). One talks to the other. One sits on the right hand of the other.

For the Jew there is only one God and one Lord. Yet David revealed that the Lord Jesus would sit at the right hand of the Father, and He is also Lord. For the Jew there cannot be two Lords unless they both are Divine, nor can there be one supreme God and one lesser "god" (which is polytheism).

Throughout the OT, "Lord" (Heb adonai) when used as a form of address to Deity, is only appliciable to God. Yet Peter says that God has made Jesus "Lord" -- equal to Himself. And that is precisely what we see in Heb 1:8, and that this also precisely where you use specious argumentation to reject the fact that Jesus is God, even though the Father calls the Son "God". That is a very serious denial of the truth.

(Edited, ToS 2.1, denial of the diety of Christ. Obadiah.)

 

[jocor]

Yes sir, good point.

The denial of Jesus as Lord is to deny the Gospel.

For one to be saved, that person must confess Jesus as Lord, and God raised Him from the dead.

Which Jesus Himself claimed that He Himself raised Himself from the dead.

As He said - destroy this Temple and in three days I WILL RAISE IT, and the Temple He spake of was His own Body.


JLB

Rom_6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Messiah was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Gal_1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Yeshua Messiah, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)​

If Yeshua raised himself, then he was the God the Father. Yet, the trinity says the Father and Son are separate persons. Please harmonize that for me.

 

[jocor]

John the Baptist, who was born 6 months before Jesus, said this:

"This One was He of whom I said, 'He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me' " (John 1:15 LITV),

and this:

"This is He about whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has been before me, for He was preceding me' " (John 1:30 LITV).

The Greek "protos" can just as easily be translated “first,” “chief,” “leader,” "Superior," etc. The “first” and great commandment was not the first given in time, but the first in rank. There are many examples of this in Scripture, including: Matt. 20:27; 22:38; Mark 6:21; 10:44; Luke 11:26. John the Baptist recognized that Yeshua was above him in rank.

 

[jocor]

Except Jesus himself said that he existed before Abraham, not to mention the numerous Scriptures that explicitly and implicitly state that he actually preexisted.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (ESV)

You misunderstand his words just as the Jews did.

 

[Free]

You misunderstand his words just as the Jews did.

Your saying so does not mean it is the case. The context makes it pretty clear what Jesus is saying:

Joh 8:53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?"
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.'
Joh 8:55But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.
Joh 8:56Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (ESV)

In verse 58, Jesus makes a clear distinction between Abraham coming into being--"before Abraham was"--and his timeless preexistence--"I am". Even if you want to deny that it "I am" here denoted timeless preexistence, although it does, there is absolutely no way around Jesus claiming to have existed before Abraham. And that was in direct response to the Jews' question regarding his having seen Abraham. The Jews correctly recognized Jesus' claim to eternal preexistence and pick up stones to stone him, which was the penalty for blasphemy.

 

[jocor]

So you don't believe Christ is the Word?

I do believe he is the Word, but I believe he became the Word at his conception, not before. Before Yeshua's conception, I believe the logos was the Father's spoken words and thoughts. His logos became flesh in the person of Yeshua. He spoke His Son into existence.

 

[jocor]

Your saying so does not mean it is the case. The context makes it pretty clear what Jesus is saying:

Joh 8:53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?"
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.'
Joh 8:55But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.
Joh 8:56Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (ESV)

In verse 58, Jesus makes a clear distinction between Abraham coming into being--"before Abraham was"--and his timeless preexistence--"I am". Even if you want to deny that it "I am" here denoted timeless preexistence, although it does, there is absolutely no way around Jesus claiming to have existed before Abraham. And that was in direct response to the Jews' question regarding his having seen Abraham. The Jews correctly recognized Jesus' claim to eternal preexistence and pick up stones to stone him, which was the penalty for blasphemy.

You left out two important verses in the context:

Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
​

The context leading to verse 58 is the resurrection of the dead, including Abraham.

​

"Was," in verse 58, is in the aorist tense. Concerning the aorist tense, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament by Dana and Mantey says, "It has time relations only in the indicative, where it is past and hence augmented." The verb ginomai (was) is in the infinitive, not the indicative. Therefore it should not be translated in the past tense. This same reference says of the infinitive, "The aorist infinitive denotes that which is eventual or particular, ..." Abraham will eventually resurrect which is why the Greek uses the aorist infinitive. As I see it, the meaning is, "Before Abraham comes to be" not "Before Abraham was."

 

[th1b.taylor]

I do believe he is the Word, but I believe he became the Word at his conception, not before. Before Yeshua's conception, I believe the logos was the Father's spoken words and thoughts. His logos became flesh in the person of Yeshua. He spoke His Son into existence.

You continue with this false assertion even though you have been given John 1:1-3 by me earlier and you did not respond, why?

 

[Malachi]

If Yeshua raised himself, then he was the God the Father. Yet, the trinity says the Father and Son are separate persons. Please harmonize that for me.

Since we are considering the eternal triune Godhead, the correct Bible teaching about the resurrection of Christ is that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were all unitedly involved in the resurrection of our Savior.

At the same time, Scripture reveals that Christ raised Himself from the dead, and the reason for that is that He is "The Resurrection and the Life" (Jn 11:25,26) and also "In Him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY" (Col 1:19;2:9). This statement in itself needs no further comment.

But Jesus also declared that He would raise Himself up from the dead (Jn 2:19,21): "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this Temple, and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP... But He spake of the Temple of His body".

Then Christ declared (Jn 5:21): "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [gives life] them; EVEN SO THE SON QUICKENTH WHOM HE WILL".

Then Christ declared (Jn 10:17,18, 30, 38; 12:44,45; 13:31; 14:6, 9-11): "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, THAT I MIGHT TAKE IT AGAIN. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, AND I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT AGAIN. This commandment have I received of my Father... I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE...THE FATHER IS IN ME AND I IN HIM... He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on Him that sent me. And he that seeth me, SEETH HIM THAT SENT ME... Now is the Son of Man glorified, AND GOD IS GLORIFIED IN HIM... I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE... HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER... BELIEVEST THOU NOT THAT I AM IN THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER IN ME... BELIEVE ME THAT I AM IN THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER IN ME".

 

[Obadiah]

ToS 2.1 states "This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read: Statement of Faith"
Statement of Faith.:
"We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

A non-Christian does not have to believe our statement of faith, and may answer direct questions about what he believes or doesn't believe, but anything beyond a direct answer to a direct question will be considered an act of teaching or contending for non-Christian beliefs. Please keep this in mind, as it applies to this forum.

 

[JLB]

Rom_6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Messiah was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Gal_1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Yeshua Messiah, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)​

If Yeshua raised himself, then he was the God the Father. Yet, the trinity says the Father and Son are separate persons. Please harmonize that for me.

It is you that says: If Yeshua raised himself, then he was the God the Father.

I have only said what the scripture says.

18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?" 19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. John 2:18-21


Jesus stated clearly for all that He Himself would raise His Body from the dead.


It was God the Father's will that Jesus Body was raised from the dead.

It was Jesus, the Word who expressed God the Father's will.

It was the Power of the Holy Spirit that brought the Word into manifestation.


This is how the Godhead functions.

God the Father - The will of the Godhead.

God the Son - The Word that expresses the will of the Father

God the Holy Spirit - The power the brings the Word, that expresses the will, into manifestation.



These three are One!


JLB

 

[Gregg]

The Greek "protos" can just as easily be translated “first,” “chief,” “leader,” "Superior," etc. The “first” and great commandment was not the first given in time, but the first in rank. There are many examples of this in Scripture, including: Matt. 20:27; 22:38; Mark 6:21; 10:44; Luke 11:26. John the Baptist recognized that Yeshua was above him in rank.

Who is Jesus to you? Please be candid and comprehensive.

I would ask the moderators to allow his full answer to remain posted.

 

[Obadiah]

Who is Jesus to you? Please be candid and comprehensive.

I would ask the moderators to allow his full answer to remain posted.

That's fine if it is only a direct answer to a question asked directly of the member (as you have asked in this post I quoted here) and the answer does not drift into contending for non-Christian beliefs. If you read the last several posts in this thread carefully I think you will notice I have allowed many of those posts that were answers to direct questions to remain. (I personally don't delete or edit anything without leaving an obvious note behind so that readers can understand the post is no longer complete in the way the writer posted it, and the writer can understand the reason for the edit or deletion.) But if anyone goes beyond just a direct answer by arguing for or trying to convince others of a truth of non-Christian beliefs, that will be considered a violation of the ToS and will be removed. The rules are pretty clear about this. This is a Christian forum and not a place for non-Christians to try to publicly convince Christians that their Christian beliefs are wrong, not even in a debate forum.