Doctrine of the Trinity

[JLB]

jocor said -

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

This verse, as I understand it, implies a being other than Yeshua that created everything "for" and "through" him. IMHO, all of Hebrews 2 declares a being greater than Yeshua who has the power to put everything in subjection to His Son; to raise him from the dead; to make him lower than angels; to crown him with glory, etc.

By whom are all things...

Through whom are all things...


15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:15-16

And the scripture can not be broken!


...looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13


Jesus Christ is my God and Savior!


Who is your Savior and God?


JLB

 

[WIP]

Just want to interject with a reminder. Discussions about the trinity very often end with no real conclusion and sometimes take a downhill turn. So far this thread has for the most part remained civil although there have been some personal comments thrown in. Please remember to keep to the subject and avoid allowing personal feelings to interfere.

I personally believe we struggle with this so much because we are trying to explain a Godly nature using human understanding, which means it is impossible to truly understand or explain completely. One day we will know the truth without question.

WIP

 

[eddif]

Here is what the scripture says -

40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40

and again -

17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the fish's belly. 2 And he said: "I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me. "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice. Jonah 1:17- 2:2


For as Jonah... Jonah was not dead in the belly of the great fish, for he prayed to the Lord from within the belly of the great fish.

"Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice...


Just as Jonah was not dead in the belly of the great fish, so Jesus Christ was not dead in the heart of the earth, in the belly of Sheol...

Though His Body lay dead in the tomb, Jesus Christ was alive in the heart of the earth.


And the scripture can not be broken!


JLB

Out of the physical symbols comes the spiritual understanding.
You done good.
As have others.

eddif

 

[Gregg]

Heb 1:9 is a quote of a verse in Hebrew. It is the Hebrew that matters.
Just because we have Thomas' words in Greek does not mean he spoke Greek.

Assuming the Jewish Thomas spoke Greek and not Hebrew or Aramaic, you need to prove he said "theos" because he thought Yeshua was his God, the God of Israel.

Where are the Hebrew language manuscripts to the NT? I do not know of any [if at all] that predate the NT Greek manuscripts. The NT letters and books were written in Greek, inspired by the Holy Spirit who moved men to write the Scriptures in Greek.

Thomas called Jesus LORD and God (Jn 20:28). If Jesus was not LORD and God, why didn't He reprimand Thomas for calling Him LORD and God?

If Jesus was not LORD and God, why did the Father say "let all the angels of God worship Him"? (Heb 1:6, LXX Deut. 32:43).

As I understand the word "foreknowledge", it means you have knowledge of something beforehand. 1Pe 1:20 says Yahweh foreknew His Son before the foundation of the world. If the Son always existed, then the Father always knew him. He cannot have known him beforehand unless he didn't exist yet. A being cannot exist before he comes to exist. Yeshua came into existence at his conception.

Rather, the eternal Son of God became a flesh and blood Man; whom we know as the LORD Jesus Christ. The Son of God is eternal; but as Immanuel His body was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Whether that body came into existence 6 months after John the baptist, or half of His DNA was prepared in Adam's rib, or perhaps pre-Adam from the dust of the earth in Gen 1:1-2 - I am not sure; nonetheless, His body was created and prepared for Him. But the Son of God [who became flesh] existed before creation.

In essence and substance, you are denying the Father's witness that He sent His Son. The Father did not send a mere created being as His Lamb; but rather He sent His eternal Son who became the Lamb of God. God the Son became a Man.

 

[Sinthesis]

I doubt that someone with the less-than-Hebrew name of 'Thomas' felt compelled to converse in Hebrew rather than Aramaic or Greek.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I have studied it, that's why I'm pointing out the contradiction. I might suggest the same advice.

per·son
ˈpərs(ə)n/
noun

1. 1.
   a human being regarded as an individual.
   "the porter was the last person to see her"
   synonyms:human being, individual, man/woman, child, human, being, (living) soul, mortal, creature; More

Not at all, what I've explained makes perfect sense. I've stated that whatever is born of God is deity. There is only one substance that is God, it stems from the Father. We've got to make sure we're understanding the difference between the name and the tile. Saying Jesus is God speaks to His substance, not his name. It's this confusion, I believe, that lead to the modern idea that three persons are one being.


What doesn't make sense is the modern contradiction. If "He," God, is three persons, what exactly is "He"

Butch,
I'm an ancient corkscrew that was pronounced to be less than two year termenal 7 or better years ago. I am only alive today because of a Hezekiah Blessing from my LORD. Sometimes the staff here has to break me down and correct me because the dozens of scars get heavy that are on my brain (My way of saying the old Bil, tied on my back, rears it's ugly head and quenches the Spirit.) take over and I get stupid.

Otherwise I am myself and when I am I totally surrendered to the Holy Spirit that indwelt me from the moment I was saved. This is all highlighted to say that, though Free has needed to remind me of the ToS on occasion, the Spirit in him is in agreement with the Spirit in me. There are two things the Holy spirit, the third person of the Triune God, can never do:
1. Disagree with Itself.
2. Disagree with the recorded Word of God.

You may conclude anything you wish but of the staff and members here, there are very, very, few that the Spirit in me disagrees with and I'm telling you, Free is right.

 

[jocor]

Your teaching smacks of SDA doctrine and that is very and strictly, the sort of legalism Jesus struck down when He said to the Samaritan Woman that one day she and the Jew would worship in truth and in spirit instead of at this place or that place. Your teaching also lends itself toward the heavy handed One God Cults.

I am not an SDA nor am I part of a one God cult.

Do you see and notice the bolded red highlighted? You ask me this question and then you arrogantly teach Free to go back and to read what you said? Guess what, you deserve the same treatment but you're not getting tonight. To answer your question, read the Devil's words that you directed at Free and while your at it, confirm that I accused you not.

This is the second time you falsely accused me of saying something I did not say. It was Free that told me to go back and read what he said. Look at the end of his post #78. If your accusation is true, please site the post in which I said that. BTW, I forgive you for both false accusations. Please be more careful in the future.

 

[jocor]

What Jesus said is this, "For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (Jn 8:24 LITV). When Jesus spoke of the Father as being the true God, He was not excluding Himself as being God.

Yeshua did not say "I AM" as though he was the great "I AM" of Ex 3:14. That is the translator adding his bias into his translation. Yeshua simply said "I am" referring back to his declaration in verse 23 that he was from above and not of this world.

You say Theos is not the name of God, and that Jesus is not the name of the Son of God. On Pentecost the believers "began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave ability to them to speak" (Act 2:4) and men heard the Gospel "because they each heard them speaking in his own dialect" (Act 2:6). The Greeks heard Kurios and Iesous and Theos; perhaps the Hebrews heard Yahweh and Yeshua and Elohiym; perhaps the Romans heard Latin; and were English spoken then we would have heard LORD and Jesus and God. The Holy Spirit gives understanding of Who these names belong to.

Jocor, you redefine God's word to justify your understanding. You redefine God's Person, and the Son of God, to validate your perception. Do you limit God to speaking Hebrew? Jesus and His Apostles quoted from the Greek Septuagint.

Theos is a title, not a name. "Jesus" is a conglomeration of Hebrew, Greek, Latin and English. The Greeks did not hear "Iesous". They heard "Yeshua" and did the best they could to transliterate it into Greek. Names do not change from one language to another. They are transliterated (the same sound is brought over into the new language). I don't know why your are derailing this thread with a discussion of names.

 

[jocor]

Here is what the scripture says -

40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40

and again -

17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the fish's belly. 2 And he said: "I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me. "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice. Jonah 1:17- 2:2


For as Jonah... Jonah was not dead in the belly of the great fish, for he prayed to the Lord from within the belly of the great fish.

"Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice...


Just as Jonah was not dead in the belly of the great fish, so Jesus Christ was not dead in the heart of the earth, in the belly of Sheol...

Though His Body lay dead in the tomb, Jesus Christ was alive in the heart of the earth.


And the scripture can not be broken!


JLB

Surely you jest. Jonah entered the fish ALIVE. Yeshua entered the tomb DEAD.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Messiah died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:​

I don't know what Gospel you preach, but it is not what Paul preached.

 

[jocor]

By whom are all things...

Through whom are all things...


15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:15-16

And the scripture can not be broken!

Correct, Scripture cannot be broken, but erroneous translations can. 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For in him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created through him, and for him: Colossians 1:15-16

...looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13


Jesus Christ is my God and Savior!


Who is your Savior and God?


JLB

Yahweh is my God and Savior. Yeshua is also my Savior. Many other versions, such as the Revised Version, American Standard Version, NAS, Moffatt, RSV, NRSV, Douay, New American Bible,NEB, etc., translate the verse very differently. The NASB reads, “…looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” In the KJV, we await the “glorious appearing” of God, while in the NASB and other versions we await the “appearing of the glory” of God our Savior (this is a use of “Savior” where the word is applied in the context to God, not Christ), i.e., we are looking for the “glory” of God, which is stated clearly as being “Jesus Christ.”

 

[jocor]

Where are the Hebrew language manuscripts to the NT? I do not know of any [if at all] that predate the NT Greek manuscripts. The NT letters and books were written in Greek, inspired by the Holy Spirit who moved men to write the Scriptures in Greek.

Thomas called Jesus LORD and God (Jn 20:28). If Jesus was not LORD and God, why didn't He reprimand Thomas for calling Him LORD and God?

He didn't reprimand Thomas because Thomas did NOT call him "LORD and God". He called him "kurios and theos". Since both words are used of men, no reprimand was necessary.

If Jesus was not LORD and God, why did the Father say "let all the angels of God worship Him"? (Heb 1:6, LXX Deut. 32:43).

The Greek word "proskuneo" translated "worship" is used of men bowing down to other men. It does not only apply to worshipping God.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Yeshua did not say "I AM" as though he was the great "I AM" of Ex 3:14. That is the translator adding his bias into his translation. Yeshua simply said "I am" referring back to his declaration in verse 23 that he was from above and not of this world.

This is an interesting though contradictory to scriptural interpretation, wherein lies the issue here. The scriptures have, under the hand of the Omniscient God, benn interpreted and yet instead of reading and mentally ingesting what God has for you to understand.

You reference Exo. 3:14, that's good but you have ignored John 1:1-3, proving that Jesus is the I Am of the entirety of scripture. The rule of Hermeneutics we must, always, remember is, not quoting, "No scripture, group of scripture nor any collection of scriptures can ever be fully and or correctly understood without the light of all other scripture shinning on it/them.

And then there is the issue here of One God. Of the Triune God, there are three co-equal persons that are yet of a definite ranking. Top down the ranking is Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Butch5]

Butch,
I'm an ancient corkscrew that was pronounced to be less than two year termenal 7 or better years ago. I am only alive today because of a Hezekiah Blessing from my LORD. Sometimes the staff here has to break me down and correct me because the dozens of scars get heavy that are on my brain (My way of saying the old Bil, tied on my back, rears it's ugly head and quenches the Spirit.) take over and I get stupid.

Otherwise I am myself and when I am I totally surrendered to the Holy Spirit that indwelt me from the moment I was saved. This is all highlighted to say that, though Free has needed to remind me of the ToS on occasion, the Spirit in him is in agreement with the Spirit in me. There are two things the Holy spirit, the third person of the Triune God, can never do:
1. Disagree with Itself.
2. Disagree with the recorded Word of God.

You may conclude anything you wish but of the staff and members here, there are very, very, few that the Spirit in me disagrees with and I'm telling you, Free is right.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you. All one has to do is research the early church to see what they believed.The idea of three, coequal, co eternal persons that are God doesn't appear until about the time of Augustine. I believe it's his model that is what many believe today, however, his model was not what was believed in the beginning. Augustine parted with what had been believed prior to him on several doctrines, not just the Trinity. If you look at the Nicene Creed it says the same thing that Paul said.

Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

This is the creed that came from the debate on the nature of Christ. It says, "I believe in one God, the Father." Notice that Jesus is God (deity) because He is of one substance with the Father. This is what was first taught in the church prior to Augustine, yet in Augustine's time we see this idea of three coequal persons.

The early understanding fits the totality of Scripture and we don't have to try to explain how one being can be three persons. That just doesn't work.

 

[JLB]

jocor said -

Yahweh is my God and Savior. Yeshua is also my Savior. Many other versions, such as the Revised Version, American Standard Version, NAS, Moffatt, RSV, NRSV, Douay, New American Bible,NEB, etc., translate the verse very differently. The NASB reads, “…looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.”

The appearing of the glory, becvause He Himself will appear, for He is our great God and Savior.

...of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.


One thing hasn't changed, which is the fact He is our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.


JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you. All one has to do is research the early church to see what they believed.The idea of three coequal co eternal person that are God doesn't appear until about the time of Augustine. I believe it's his model that is what many believe today, however, his model was not what was believed in the beginning. Augustine parted with with what had been believed prior to him one several doctrines, not just the Trinity. If you look at the Nicene Creed it says the same thing that Paul said.

Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

This is the creed that came from the debate on the nature of Christ. It says, "I believe in one God, the Father." Notice that Jesus is God (deity) because He is of one substance with the Father. This is what was first taught in the church prior to Augustine, yet in Augustine's time we see this idea of three coequal persons.

The early understanding fits the totality of Scripture and we don't have to try to explain how one being can be three persons. That just doesn't work.

Butch,
all of the Creeds are man made!

 

[Butch5]

Just want to interject with a reminder. Discussions about the trinity very often end with no real conclusion and sometimes take a downhill turn. So far this thread has for the most part remained civil although there have been some personal comments thrown in. Please remember to keep to the subject and avoid allowing personal feelings to interfere.

I personally believe we struggle with this so much because we are trying to explain a Godly nature using human understanding, which means it is impossible to truly understand or explain completely. One day we will know the truth without question.

WIP

Hi WIP,

Actually, I don't think it's that hard to understand if we simply let go of things we've been taught that don't work. I did that and considered the evidence. One thing I find rather intriguing is that people can't explain how three persons are one being, yet reject a perfectly plausible explanation of the Trinity. There's nothing in the Scriptures that says God is one being but three persons so that idea had to come from the mind of man, yet it seems modern Trinitarians refuse to let go of the idea. It's seems that they refuse to admit that man could be wrong.

 

[Butch5]

Butch,
all of the Creeds are man made!

Yes, and so is the modern idea of the Trinity. It comes from the Anthanasian Creed. However, my point in posting it was to show what was first believed.

 

[jeff77]

Yes, and so is the modern idea of the Trinity. It comes from the Anthanasian Creed. However, my point in posting it was to show what was first believed.

Interesting Butch, but you do believe Jesus is God correct?

 

[JLB]

He didn't reprimand Thomas because Thomas did NOT call him "LORD and God". He called him "kurios and theos". Since both words are used of men, no reprimand was necessary.

Theos is a reference to God.

Why would you say such a thing?

Theos is a direct reference to God.


11 For the grace of God [theos] that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God [theos] and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. Titus 2:11-15

and again -


1 Paul, a bondservant of God [theos] and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's [theos] elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, [theos] who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior; 4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God [theos] the Father and the Lord [kurios] Jesus Christ our Savior.


You have never added anything constructive to these discussions, only trying to undermine what the word of God says.

You only seem to say, that doesn't mean what it says, or this bible and that bible are no good because they are bad translations.

The word of God has found you out.

Thomas was calling Jesus Both Lord and God!


Jesus is the creator of all things, as the word of God says.

He is God, and Lord and Savior, as the word of God states.

He is our Great God and Savior.


He is YHWH! The Lord and Savior.

For I am the LORD your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I gave Egypt for your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in your place. Isaiah 43:3


I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11


Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me. Isaiah 45:21




...but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. 2 Peter 3:18


...looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13


Jesus Christ is YHWH, to the glory of God the Father!





JLB

 

[Butch5]

Interesting Butch, but you do believe Jesus is God correct?

Hi Jeff,

I believe the original teaching of the Trinity, that is, there is one God the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ, as Paul said. Jesus is God (deity) because He is the of the same substance as the Father. Here is where the three persons one being comes from, it's from the Anthanasian Creed. This creed is credited to Athanasias but most scholars don't believe he wrote it. It's believed to be from around the 5th century. It's also not what Anthanasias believed.

The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ.

The only way they are coequal is in substance, they are all deity. As far as order goes the Father is supreme and there is none above or equal to him.