Ontologically co-equal but a degree of sub-ordination in relation to creation and the plan of salvation; the Ontological Trinity and the Economic Trinity.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Doctrine of the Trinity
- Thread starter Lewis
- Start date
Butch5
Member
It's not a straw man. The words person and being are interchangeable. A human "Being" is a "Person." The teaching that one being is three persons is a logical contradiction and it is not what was originally taught. It's also not what Paul taught, Paul agreed with Deut. 6:4, he said,
KJV 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:6 KJV)
One God, the Father. He didn't say there is one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, he said there is one God, the Father.
th1b.taylor
Member
Your teaching smacks of SDA doctrine and that is very and strictly, the sort of legalism Jesus struck down when He said to the Samaritan Woman that one day she and the Jew would worship in truth and in spirit instead of at this place or that place. Your teaching also lends itself toward the heavy handed One God Cults.
Do you see and notice the bolded red highlighted? You ask me this question and then you arrogantly teach Free to go back and to read what you said? Guess what, you deserve the same treatment but you're not getting tonight. To answer your question, read the Devil's words that you directed at Free and while your at it, confirm that I accused you not.
th1b.taylor
Member
Butch,
I'll let Free take care of this but, REALLY?
Butch5
Member
Jesus is God (deity) because He is born of God (the Father). God (the Father) is deity, thus anything born of Him is deity. Regarding persons they are not the same.
Butch5
Member
Really what?
It is a straw man because you simply cannot go changing the meanings of the words being used. In this case, it is a comparison of "the being that is God" and "three persons". Difficult? Yes, of course, but a contradiction it is not.
Why are you ignoring the obvious? It simply is amazing how often anti-Trinitarians will quote this verse and miss the obvious. But this is even worse since you are, correctly, showing that 1 Cor 8:6 is Paul's expounding of the Shema, but you've only made half the argument.
Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (ESV)
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)
You cannot highlight "one God, the Father" and then leave out "one Lord, Jesus Christ". Both are a part of the Shema. And, of course, if you use this verse to say that Jesus therefore cannot be God, then logically one must conclude that the Father cannot be Lord. But we know the Father is Lord, so these are not exclusive terms.
Jesus is God because he is of the same substance of the Father, which means Jesus has existed for as long as the Father has existed. One of the very things that makes God God, is that he has always existed. But yet the Bible is clear that there is and always has been, only one God.
Not to mention that this contradicts your previous post. You want to highlight Paul's statement that "there is one God, the Father," but yet continue in this post to say that Jesus is God.
Butch5
Member
It's not a straw man, the idea that one being is three persons is a logical contradiction. Person and being are interchangeable terms, in essence the claim is that three persons are one person. It's difficult because it's a contradition.
Firstly, I am a Trinitarian, I just don't hold the modern contraction. I didn't notice the word and in the Shema. The Father is a Lord and the Son is a Lord, however, that doesn't mean they are the same Lord. Paul explicitly differentiates between the Father as God and the Son as Lord. Even Jesus acknowledged that the Father is the one true God.
KJV John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Joh 17:3 KJV)
Jesus is making a distinction between Himself and the Father.
Yes, your argument is a strawman and, no, person and being are not interchangeable. I strongly suggest you actually study what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches before making such claims.
I think polytheist fits your position, not Trinitarian. You believe in multiple gods, which is unbiblical. Shall I post the passages which clearly and unequivocally state that there is and always has been only one God?
Butch5
Member
No it doesn't. I'm simply using the word the way the Scriptures do. The word God is used as a name and a title. I believe many don't realize this and get confused. The majority of times the word God is used in the NT it is using it as a name for the Father. However, the word is also a title. We could use human presidents in a similar way. If I say the President, you would know I was speaking of Obama. However, if there were three presidents from three different countries, they all be a president but they would not all be the same person. The word theos, translated God means deity. The Father is deity, the Son is deity, the Holy Spirit is deity, in that sense they are God, however, that is the only sense in which they are God.
The man Jesus was born of Mary, the Word was born of God. The Word existed as a part of the Father but not as a separate entity apart from the Father as He did after being begotten.
Last edited:
LovethroughDove
Member
Here is where we ALL agree.
Butch5
Member
I have studied it, that's why I'm pointing out the contradiction. I might suggest the same advice.
per·son
ˈpərs(ə)n/
noun
- 1.
a human being regarded as an individual.
"the porter was the last person to see her"
synonyms:human being, individual, man/woman, child, human, being, (living) soul, mortal, creature; More
Not at all, what I've explained makes perfect sense. I've stated that whatever is born of God is deity. There is only one substance that is God, it stems from the Father. We've got to make sure we're understanding the difference between the name and the tile. Saying Jesus is God speaks to His substance, not his name. It's this confusion, I believe, that lead to the modern idea that three persons are one being.
What doesn't make sense is the modern contradiction. If "He," God, is three persons, what exactly is "He"
LovethroughDove
Member
Jesus would not want you to put him above the Father, and I don't refer to him as "God"............. but he is God. Does that make sense to anyone else?
Butch5
Member
Yes, on this point we do agree. I think this modern idea of the Trinity takes away from the Honor due to the Father. Many Christians put Jesus on equal ground with the Father, yet Jesus Himself said, 'the Father is greater than I.' Even when we look at the Father Son relationship among the Jewish people we see that the Father was greater than the Son. Abraham was the father of the Jewish people and was honored above all the Jews.
Butch5
Member
It makes sense to me if I understand the first occurrence of the word God as a name for the Father and the second occurrence of the word God as the substance or diety that Jesus (the Word) is.
LovethroughDove
Member
I understand where you are coming from Butch5 and I also see where everyone else is coming from.
I may actually learn something from this thread. It is going to take a lot to have it work out. Most of the discussion is done with words ( words that became flesh and dwelt among men ....). Because of our limited human intelligence we stumble over many things ( I am example # 1). Reading the information written to the 7 churches in Revelation; should show us most have good and bad in our (group / church). Of course most think we are right and most others have all the problems.
I arrived at Romans 1:19-20 in desperation. Every time I sought answers I had to learn a different doctrinal system ( and that is not totally wrong, but not totally correct). Errors are presented as truth.
IMHO. God foresaw all the discussion, and wrote in creation hints to unravel the mystery of who he is. Romans 1:19-20 says this clearly (?). Being from the backwoods of Mississippi does not help much. Except. In the quiet of the setting; nature (creation) is louder, in its speaking. The book of Job is full of God sending Job (and us by extension) to his creation / nature (so we can understand). The ocean was created with boundaries (the waves can come just so far). Some of the posts are doing a good job of setting limits in this thread. The beaches are established and the waves that would erode our being are (brought to naught). I personally see trinity in sun, moon and light. Three totally different things that help explain Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but others are using just doctrine. Doctrine is supported by creation. Holy Spirit strives against flesh (to keep flesh within boundaries).
eddif
I arrived at Romans 1:19-20 in desperation. Every time I sought answers I had to learn a different doctrinal system ( and that is not totally wrong, but not totally correct). Errors are presented as truth.
IMHO. God foresaw all the discussion, and wrote in creation hints to unravel the mystery of who he is. Romans 1:19-20 says this clearly (?). Being from the backwoods of Mississippi does not help much. Except. In the quiet of the setting; nature (creation) is louder, in its speaking. The book of Job is full of God sending Job (and us by extension) to his creation / nature (so we can understand). The ocean was created with boundaries (the waves can come just so far). Some of the posts are doing a good job of setting limits in this thread. The beaches are established and the waves that would erode our being are (brought to naught). I personally see trinity in sun, moon and light. Three totally different things that help explain Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but others are using just doctrine. Doctrine is supported by creation. Holy Spirit strives against flesh (to keep flesh within boundaries).
eddif
Gregg
Member
It is not my interpretation, but rather the truth and essence of what God said. John taught that the LORD Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.
What Jesus said is this, "For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (Jn 8:24 LITV). When Jesus spoke of the Father as being the true God, He was not excluding Himself as being God.
You say Theos is not the name of God, and that Jesus is not the name of the Son of God. On Pentecost the believers "began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave ability to them to speak" (Act 2:4) and men heard the Gospel "because they each heard them speaking in his own dialect" (Act 2:6). The Greeks heard Kurios and Iesous and Theos; perhaps the Hebrews heard Yahweh and Yeshua and Elohiym; perhaps the Romans heard Latin; and were English spoken then we would have heard LORD and Jesus and God. The Holy Spirit gives understanding of Who these names belong to.
Jocor, you redefine God's word to justify your understanding. You redefine God's Person, and the Son of God, to validate your perception. Do you limit God to speaking Hebrew? Jesus and His Apostles quoted from the Greek Septuagint.
Last edited:
Here is what the scripture says -
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40
and again -
17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the fish's belly. 2 And he said: "I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me. "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice. Jonah 1:17- 2:2
For as Jonah... Jonah was not dead in the belly of the great fish, for he prayed to the Lord from within the belly of the great fish.
"Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice...
Just as Jonah was not dead in the belly of the great fish, so Jesus Christ was not dead in the heart of the earth, in the belly of Sheol...
Though His Body lay dead in the tomb, Jesus Christ was alive in the heart of the earth.
And the scripture can not be broken!
JLB