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Does being Christian equate to elitism today?

Sorry. Me again. I caught this after I posted last. I used to be on our elder board, and we would call members who haven't been to worship in a given period of time. No matter how carefully we worded our calls that our concern was that they are not in worship anywhere, there would always be those who felt we were harassing them. All we wanted to know is:

A. Are you in worship anywhere while you haven't been here?
B. Is there a reason we need to know that you haven't been coming?
C. Is there anything we can pray on for you?

But all some people (the minority) heard was "Where have you been!?" "Why aren't you here!?" This never stopped us from calling, because we cared, and we didn't want it to appear as though no one did. If I stopped going to a church, and no one bothered to check why or how I'm doing, I'd definitely get the feeling no one cared. Most people were grateful for our call and concern.

Could it possibly be that you're taking the purpose of the calls wrong?

I agree that a 10% tithe is not in the spirit of our faith. One church by us forces members to submit their W2's, and they insist on the full 10%!! :o

But a church does need funds to operate. People never want to hear about the need for offerings, no matter how it's delivered. If they bring it up once a year, people have it in their minds that they're always bothering them with it. They should be able to appeal to their members for glad offerings, but they shouldn't demand it, and someone's welcome to worship shouldn't be contingent on it. :nono

I understand your concern and that some people may misconstrue your calls and questions. I admire concern for the congregation certainly, but there is a huge difference between calls and mailings of concern and repeated calls and mailings after I have clearly explained why I will no longer attend or why they said I wasnt to come back or was made to feel unwelcome (sometimes church staff isnt always all on the same page with each other). If I choose to leave or was pushed out of a church, my wishes should be respected to stop receiving communication from the church in question in all forms. There are many churches and many ways to worship God but some churches feel that if it's not their church, youre following false beliefs or not worshipping correctly in some way, shape or form.

I am not one to easily misconstrue things.Im not saying all churches are this way but to me an alarming percentage have some glaring issues, some it tends to be their attitudes towards different classes of people, some it tends to be their way or no way and others it tends to be that they cant respect boundaries or wishes very well. As for the worst types that press the callings and mailings they usually fall under what I would call cultish sects or offshoots though some of the seemingly normal churches arent any better. It all depends on the views of the staff who work and run the church. Ive even been told Im going to hell for not attending a specific church or not tithing. That is absurd.

As for tithing not everyone can afford 10% or not everyone believes in what a specific church may do with the funds so they dont tithe and eventually move on to another church.

As for offerings I have no problem sparing what I can for the church so long as I feel theyre using the money appropriately. When a church has no community programs in a very poor area and they are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on new statues or new locations or paying staff exceedingly high wages or buying businesses or just general wasteful spending, I question whether or not my offerings would be better applied elsewhere.

I dont feel pastors should be paid excessive wages and no I dont feel they should be poor either but spending two months out of country on a family vacation and affording a brand new vehicle every year and being paid 85k a year is ridiculous when the community is suffering in poverty and people arent receiving proper medical care for serious conditions or peoples basic needs in general arent being met.

The average median salary for a pastor in this country is $85,634 annually according to stats I looked at with the 25th percentile getting around 70k average and the top end being 75th percentile and higher receiving on average 97k .

The average salary for citizens in this country equates to $44,389 being precisely median with 20% of citizens earning less than 20k annually.

It highly concerns me that men of god are living twice as well as the average person and many times higher than those in poverty.

If the church needs more funds to operate, perhaps the pastors should donate half their salaries to the church and earn only the average wage and live modestly and more in line with christian teachings. Of course this will offend some.

I just find it hypocritical for churches to go against the very bible it teaches or preach modesty and charity while the same people receive double the average annual wage.

Historically priests were poor and ministered to the community, today its hard to find a priest who ministers to the community as they once did and hard to find one who would donate his salary for much of anything.

Many churches are in a bad state, IMO.

As far as appeals for offerings go I personally believe passing the offering plate at church is enough and if not then address the congregation at church, no one wants mailings usually and many detest calls, my opinion is that churches are often arrogant and greedy as a majority and they try to outcompete each other with trips to many countries that are costly once a year while ignoring the local suffering the whole year.
 
I literal just started the forum so it hasnt gotten very far in any direction but it is intended to be a forum where all topics can be discussed freely without being ridiculed, banned or treated poorly for bring up what are deemed controversial christian topics.

the one guy there has a filthy mouth
 
Tithing is wrong? :confused

I'll go check with God on that one, in the mean time I'll continue to pray for a job so I can tithe my 10%.

People may find it hard to give their 10%, but God rewards them for this giving and the reward is far greater than 10%!

I'd never tithe at a UU church either, by the way. Who knows what that money would go to...
 
Tithing is wrong? :confused


Yes.

Without getting very complex here, the churches have completely distorted the bible to reflect their goals.

In the bible the 10% is to be given to the Levites to support them. Are there Levites among the church? No.

And there are actually three tithes mentioned in the bible equating to a total of 23 percent of one's income roughly speaking.

1st tithe = Num 18:21-29 , Lev 27:30

2nd tithe aka festival tithe = Deut 12:10-11, Deut 12:17-18

3rd tithe aka poor tithe = 10% every 3rd year = Deut 28:14

This equates to about 23% of your income. So not only is 10% off... it is meant to support the levites...

And the new covenant is:

"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loveth a cheerful giver." 2 Corinthians 9:7

So the whole tithing thing is wrong off, its either 23% and adhere to all of the laws of the OT or properly apply the covenants that apply and allow people to give as they can.

You cant pick and choose the parts of the bible you like and toss out the rest.
 
Tithing is wrong? :confused

I'll go check with God on that one, in the mean time I'll continue to pray for a job so I can tithe my 10%.

People may find it hard to give their 10%, but God rewards them for this giving and the reward is far greater than 10%!

I'd never tithe at a UU church either, by the way. Who knows what that money would go to...

2 Cor 9:
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28947">"6</sup>Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28948">7</sup>Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28949">8</sup>And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work."

As I understand it, with the New Covenant, it isn't the number, it's the nature. Is it better to give 10% and feel the tinge of financial burden or 5% and do it with a glad heart. Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't be in a place where OVER 10% feels like a burden. The government is taxing me at 30% :grumpy and the Giver of everything is asking for a mere 10? This shouldn't be a burden, but it all comes down to where your heart is.

I just don't fixate on that number, and I certainly don't think churches should demand it to the point of requiring W2's.
 
1 Corinthians 16:2 should help you. We are to tithe a percentage of our income. That percentage should be decided upon in prayer with God (James 1:5).

Don't let people hoodwink you into thinking tithes are no longer required, the New Testament is clear that they still are wanted. The 10% is just what many people have decided is the minimum to tithe. If we want to be truly Biblical you need to tithe so that you feel it. If you are tithing and are not feeling the impact of having less money, you are not tithing enough.
 
If we want to be truly Biblical you need to tithe so that you feel it. If you are tithing and are not feeling the impact of having less money, you are not tithing enough.

If someone is looking to tithe until they feel it or it has an impact, I'm not sure their motivation is where it should be. Sort of like "no pain, no gain"? Ideally, we should be in a place where we cheerfully give more than 10 percent. If a person gets to 10% and feels a certain level of satisfaction in that, I believe "pride" has entered the equation. On the other hand if 10% does feel like a burden, you're keeping 90% for yourself, and there's a burden in 10%? It could be time to check the heart, but I'm not going there.
 
Mike, sorry if I did not make it clear. Tithing must be something you desire and love doing. Tithing should be the highlight of your week. However, a good rule of thumb is to find the percentage where all of a sudden you find yourself having to shop for the deals and maybe turning the A/C on an hour or two later in order to save money. God wants us to be in this position because when we have little we come to Him for lots and that is what He wants. The Bible doesn't say give until your feel the pain, but I am suggesting this as a good rule because it makes you come closer to God sense you will need Him more and more.

But you are right, giving should be with a happy heart, not forced. If it is forced it is robbery, like taxes ;)

I don't know, some people probably would feel the pain at 10% or even lower. If you make minimum wage, then every cent counts.
 
Re: Does being Christian equate to the elitism today?

I think we have gotten off track...way off track.

Does tithing make you a Christian? nope...

Does going to church make you a Christian? nope...

Is everyone in church a Christian? nope...

We assume that churches are populated by the majority being Christians. But I think that somehow along the way we have left behind the true meaning of "Christian" and of "church".

I think that being a "christian" does equate to elitism today....at least what the world see's a christian. If you are indeed a Christian...and that means you are a "follower of Christ" or "Christ-one", then you cannot be an elitist.

The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

By the mere definition of Christianity, we are undeserving humans who have been given a right standing with an all deserving God.

Unfortunately...Most in the churches today, or should I say, most that come together in buildings today that are called "churches" do practice elitism. One day....it will all be sorted out.
 
Re: Does being Christian equate to the elitism today?

I think we have gotten off track...way off track.

Does tithing make you a Christian? nope...

Does going to church make you a Christian? nope...

Is everyone in church a Christian? nope...

We assume that churches are populated by the majority being Christians. But I think that somehow along the way we have left behind the true meaning of "Christian" and of "church".

I think that being a "christian" does equate to elitism today....at least what the world see's a christian. If you are indeed a Christian...and that means you are a "follower of Christ" or "Christ-one", then you cannot be an elitist.

The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

By the mere definition of Christianity, we are undeserving humans who have been given a right standing with an all deserving God.

Unfortunately...Most in the churches today, or should I say, most that come together in buildings today that are called "churches" do practice elitism. One day....it will all be sorted out.

BEST. POST. ALL. DAY. !!!

The only thing I'll say is basically what I said in my first post here. People of all nations and socioeconomic levels practice envy and elitism; not just in churches. But your point and one I will highlight is that we should differentiate ourselves from the "world". Unfortunately, there's that darn human condition! Darn you, sin!!!

I'll also say that any time we look to people for perfection, we will at one point or another be let down. We ALL fall sometimes, and it can impact the walk of those around us. People should stop expecting what they shouldn't expect from fellow Christians - perfection. We find that looking up, not around.


Seriously, as Pard noted, VERY well said.
 
the uu isnt quite a christian denomation as they dont believe in what the lord says about the only way to heaven.

theres only one path to heaven, and the lord is it.
 
the uu isnt quite a christian denomation as they dont believe in what the lord says about the only way to heaven.

theres only one path to heaven, and the lord is it.

This doesnt mean that I do not believe it, of course.

If they said that Jesus is the only way to heaven, it wouldnt be multi-faith.

UU is supposed to foster harmony between all peoples and faiths regardless of their differences.

I believe the message of UU is a pure and noble one and I have seen more christian like behavior out of UU members regardless of their faith than the other churches in my area.

It cannot be said to be christian as a church but I dont believe in churches to teach people the word of God, that is the bible's job. Human hands have destroyed a great many things including the teachings of the lord.People cannot interpret what the scriptures mean to you, for you.

Church for me is about community and all walks of life coming together to worship and grow spiritually.Everyone at UU is given an equal voice and everything is open for discussion without judgment.Every service, everyone is allowed to comment or discuss either the service or topics they have.

I enjoy the UU church and it is what is best for me personally.To me the UU practices what it preaches and shows great love for each other more than any other church Ive personally experienced.
 
that is odd,you attend something that teaches 180 from what you believe,

you say that they show love, ok. my churches does that we give to the poor.

you say that they dont exclude so would a drunkard that didnt repent, according their doctrine make it too heaven, in the thread the christian tolerance, you very loosely believe in what God of the bible is, as you say that he isnt confined to one religion and to claim the absolute way to heaven is bad as no man know God

yet this, you claim to believe the words of the messiah.

God did write to us via the bible and state what he wanted from us.

Jesus alone said he is the way, the life , the truth.
 
It is not a complete 180 from what I believe, they simply do not make it exclusive by stating a christian belief which I feel is key to fostering harmony and love among all peoples and faiths. Like it or not, we are to love our neighbor and we must share the world with all people.

A person's beliefs does not make them good or bad.

Giving to the poor is not necessarily love. One can do so out of many reasons ranging from pity to arrogance, love isnt handing out food and objects, christian love is inviting them to your table to eat and dine with you as an equal brother or sister. Love is more than handouts no matter which way you slice. Handouts can be an act of love but in many cases these days it can stem from other reasons as well.Love is many things that is difficult to explain in a brief forum post.

What does being a drunkard have to do with repenting or not? Noah was a drunkard yet a holy man. I do not see your correlation or reason for picking a drunkard.

I believe God is known by many names to many people but as the bible says there is one god.

I do believe in the words of the messiah and no man or woman can judge me in that only god can judge my faith, brother.

By your logic a serial murderer who believes in Jesus goes to heaven and a virtuous buddhist suffers in hell? It is more complex than just faith in jesus or acceptance in jesus.

I believe it take more than faith in Jesus to make it heaven and that our actions weigh heavily upon our souls.

Why do you attack me brother? I am strong in my faith. I respect other's rights however to believe their own faiths.

If I do not share my faith with others, how can they learn of my faith and the teachings? Should I only surround myself with christians and no others?

I am honestly curious as to why such anger and accusation toward me.Have I offended you brother?
 
that wasnt an attack, by no means.

you will know when i attack and get angry.

you are in deception , should i not warn you. its called checking one fruits, if i lie and are in sin, i hope if a brother that sees will rebuke me as my soul needs it.

it was once a bisexual and was told it was a sin by a sister in the lord, she saved me from hellfires or a life of sorrow. I didnt want to hear it but i needed it.

where do you get the idea that i would ever condone a murder making it to heaven, you need to re up on what solo fide is to the protestants, it includes living by that claim of repentance.

when on repent once doenst just sorry lord and keep sinning they change! and sometimes we need the miracolous help from the lord to stop sinning.

you contradict yourself here again. you claim that the lord is right and yet it takes more then faith to get to heaven. agian please read up on solo fide and you can learn from the book of james and also romans. they dont contradict each other.

where in the bible does it say the The Lord changed his apperance and becomes the hindu god shiva,nirtti, ra, osiris, seth etc..

this isnt an attack, but a call to some serious doctrinal examination. do it for your soul and read up on what the bible says.

btw i used to be into alot of eastern thinking, you my friend mean well but reak of it.
 
that wasnt an attack, by no means.

you will know when i attack and get angry.

you are in deception , should i not warn you. its called checking one fruits, if i lie and are in sin, i hope if a brother that sees will rebuke me as my soul needs it.

it was once a bisexual and was told it was a sin by a sister in the lord, she saved me from hellfires or a life of sorrow. I didnt want to hear it but i needed it.

where do you get the idea that i would ever condone a murder making it to heaven, you need to re up on what solo fide is to the protestants, it includes living by that claim of repentance.

when on repent once doenst just sorry lord and keep sinning they change! and sometimes we need the miracolous help from the lord to stop sinning.

you contradict yourself here again. you claim that the lord is right and yet it takes more then faith to get to heaven. agian please read up on solo fide and you can learn from the book of james and also romans. they dont contradict each other.

where in the bible does it say the The Lord changed his apperance and becomes the hindu god shiva,nirtti, ra, osiris, seth etc..

this isnt an attack, but a call to some serious doctrinal examination. do it for your soul and read up on what the bible says.

btw i used to be into alot of eastern thinking, you my friend mean well but reak of it.

Forgive me brother if I misunderstood your post but it came off as being hostile to me. I am in deception in what manner? I believe the bible and live it, I believe in the lord and his teachings.

You are not god nor jesus, how can you judge me to know if I am in deception or need to be put in check?

I never said you condoned murder but you used an example of an unrepentant drunkard and I used an example of a murderer who was repentant.

I am not contradicting myself brother I am contradicting you. I believe that it takes more than faith or claimed faith in jesus to make it to heaven. I do not believe that repenting is all that is required to make it to heaven nor did the saints or great christian minds. If all it takes is faith in jesus or repenting why do we have so many laws for living from the bible as well as the commandments? It takes more than faith to enter the kingdom of heaven. I feel this is shown in the bible in many ways.

You are basically judging me and telling me Im wrong and need serious examination for fear that my soul may be damned.This is arrogant. You are not god nor do you know that I am damned or not.

Bottom line is I contradict your faith not mine.

Where did I say Jesus changed form? Where does it say he didnt change form? Lack of evidence is not evidence brother, this is purely conjecture.

Do you presume to know the history of god or the future? The bible leaves out much and much is possible can you say for fact that god had no other forms? Can you say you know everything god did before and after the bible?

Anything is possible. Do I personally believe God took these forms? I believe it is possible and do not discount those who believe so. I have my faith and am strong in it and I accept and follow the teachings of my faith.
 
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