Calvinism is often charged with believing that God selected some people to go to Heaven and God selected other people to go to Hell and this selection was made before we were born. The technical term for this is “positive-positive” Double Predestination and teaches that God is equally active in saving some and damning others. This poll is primarily for Calvinists to quantify how common this view is or is not.
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Does God choose people to go to Hell?
- Thread starter atpollard
- Start date
Fastfredy0
2023 Supporter
Aside: A majority of Reformed people don't believe in "positive positive double predestination .. I.E. Sproul, MacArthur, Grudem
I vote Yes of "positive positive" (not that this is a democracy)
Double predestination teaches that God proactively elects some to heaven and proactively elects some to hell—it is a balanced predestination in that God is as equally active in choosing people for hell as He is in choosing people for heaven.
John 12:37 Even though He had performed so many signs in their presence, they did not believe in Him. 38 But this was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet, who said: Lord, who has believed our message? And who has the arm of the Lord been revealed to? 39 This is why they were unable to believe, because Isaiah also said: 40 He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they would not see with their eyes or understand with their hearts, and be converted, and I would heal them
Romans 9:18 "God has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills"
Romans 9:21 Does the potter not have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump [of clay] one object for honorable use [something beautiful or distinctive] and another for common use [something ordinary or menial]? 22 What if God, although willing to show His [terrible] wrath and to make His power known, has tolerated with great patience the objects of His wrath [which are] prepared for destruction?
1 Peter 2:7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe [in Him as God’s only Son—the Source of salvation]; but for those who disbelieve, “The [very] stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief Cornerstone,” 8 and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they disobey the word [of God], and to this they [who reject Him as Savior] were also appointed.
Wayne Grudem blatantly slanders and opposes Scripture when he writes, "So in the presentation of Scripture the cause of election lies in God, and the cause of reprobation lies in the sinner." This is both unbiblical and impossible. It is unbiblical because it contradicts the Bible. Paul says that God had decided to treat Jacob and Esau differently "before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad." It is impossible because there is only one God. Just as election is not based on "anything good" in the person, reprobation is not based on "anything bad" in the person. It is not as if the man could create and control himself while God passively watches him. Vincent Cheung – Commentary on Ephesians
I vote Yes of "positive positive" (not that this is a democracy)
Double predestination teaches that God proactively elects some to heaven and proactively elects some to hell—it is a balanced predestination in that God is as equally active in choosing people for hell as He is in choosing people for heaven.
John 12:37 Even though He had performed so many signs in their presence, they did not believe in Him. 38 But this was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet, who said: Lord, who has believed our message? And who has the arm of the Lord been revealed to? 39 This is why they were unable to believe, because Isaiah also said: 40 He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they would not see with their eyes or understand with their hearts, and be converted, and I would heal them
Romans 9:18 "God has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills"
Romans 9:21 Does the potter not have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump [of clay] one object for honorable use [something beautiful or distinctive] and another for common use [something ordinary or menial]? 22 What if God, although willing to show His [terrible] wrath and to make His power known, has tolerated with great patience the objects of His wrath [which are] prepared for destruction?
1 Peter 2:7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe [in Him as God’s only Son—the Source of salvation]; but for those who disbelieve, “The [very] stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief Cornerstone,” 8 and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they disobey the word [of God], and to this they [who reject Him as Savior] were also appointed.
Wayne Grudem blatantly slanders and opposes Scripture when he writes, "So in the presentation of Scripture the cause of election lies in God, and the cause of reprobation lies in the sinner." This is both unbiblical and impossible. It is unbiblical because it contradicts the Bible. Paul says that God had decided to treat Jacob and Esau differently "before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad." It is impossible because there is only one God. Just as election is not based on "anything good" in the person, reprobation is not based on "anything bad" in the person. It is not as if the man could create and control himself while God passively watches him. Vincent Cheung – Commentary on Ephesians
Cool … I always like people holding views different than my own. If we agreed on everything, then one of us would be superfluous. 😉
journeyman
Member
the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, Rev.21:8
Fastfredy0
2023 Supporter
What? You enjoy being wrong? *giggle*
Two cannot walk together unless they are agreed ... I like a little disagreement once in a while. On a forum like this it is entertaining which is an asset (usually).
Hi AT, hell became necessary with the sin of Adam sir. With his sin, we all inherited death. The good news is, all in hell will be released from it as was Jesus by the coming resurrection. Then with death being no more, therefore no more need for it, death and hell get cast into the lake of fire to be disposed of eternally Rev 20:13,14
I don't know, I might ... it just hasn't happened yet.
Ummm ... few people question the existence of Hell (and none that believe the Bible question that Hell is real and many will go there). The question was "Were they born for the specific purpose of going to Hell? Was that God's purpose for them from eternity past?" Some people, like me, say "no" and some people, like Fastfredy0, say "yes".
The poll was to see how "common" each view is here on CF.net ...
What “activity“ is God “active” in, since His choosing took place before the foundation of the world?
You stopped short of Revelation 20:15 [NLT] "And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire." and if we push on to Revelation 21:8 we get [NLT] “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
However, the question was "Were they born for the specific purpose of going to Hell/Lake of Fire? Was that God's purpose for them from eternity past?"
But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?”
Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.” John 12:37-40
- Lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.
These verses do not have to do with God choosing some for salvation.
These verses refer to healing.
JLB
Why would God need to hardened the heart of someone whom He had already chosen for damnation?
It would seem that the persons freewill is stronger than God’s predetermination then.
JLB
Fastfredy0
2023 Supporter
Well, if you are a deist then you would believe God is not active. I am not of that persuasion per:
Acts 17:28 For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being],
or ... Colossians 1:17 And He Himself existed and is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. [His is the controlling, cohesive force of the universe.]
Admittedly, there are dualists who think there is another power other than God's
Fastfredy0
2023 Supporter
Re: Ever being wrong ...
Glad you usually agree with me. 
Sweet, I can refer to you and/or scripture then. You da man!!!
Glad you usually agree with me.
Fastfredy0
2023 Supporter
Assuming:
1) God wanted the reprobates to go to heaven and
2) people go to heaven if they have not reached the age of accountability and
3) synergism
4) God loves everyone the same as the elect
then God just has to have the reprobates die earlier and avoid anyone going to hell. So, God chooses and a purpose is assumed.
Hmmm, is there a single atom in the universe that God does not have a purpose? Why would he create anything if He had not purpose for it.
.... I think I am rambling .... pretend your my wife and ignore me ....
electedbyhim
Member
Romans 9:21-22 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction,
2 Peter 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, blaspheming where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
Its hard to argue with the above verses.
Who am I to say what God can and cant do.
2 Peter 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, blaspheming where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
Its hard to argue with the above verses.
Who am I to say what God can and cant do.
electedbyhim
Member
There are many that do not believe God controls atoms or even nature.Assuming:
1) God wanted the reprobates to go to heaven and
2) people go to heaven if they have not reached the age of accountability and
3) synergism
4) God loves everyone the same as the elect
then God just has to have the reprobates die earlier and avoid anyone going to hell. So, God chooses and a purpose is assumed.
Hmmm, is there a single atom in the universe that God does not have a purpose? Why would he create anything if He had not purpose for it.
.... I think I am rambling .... pretend your my wife and ignore me ....
But He does.