Does God choose people to go to Hell?

[atpollard]

You indicated in your posts that I am more loving than God sir, as I wouldn't torture people eternally whereas you state He will. Christians believe that God is Love, and that one of His main qualities is Justice. His word gives us His idea of justice, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for life, now that is justice is it not.

So you tell me, what sin could someone do in their short life span that would warrant such a judgment? But I will give you this sir, if God is going to torture people eternally in a lake of fire, I will be right there beside you, cursing the day that I had to be born under such a god. That would truly make satan a hero, to suffer the torture we will have to endure, to not give in to such an evil god.

Hypothetically, you take a ceramic class a create a coffee mug. This coffee mug then willfully refuses to allow you to drink your coffee from it (pouring hot coffee down your shirt every time). No matter what you say or do, this coffee cup, which you created with your own hands, refuses to serve the purpose for which you created it.

What will you do with this coffee cup?
Will you allow your children to drink from it and get burned with hot coffee?

(at this point, this is NOT a metaphor … you have a real problem with a real coffee cup that happens to have Free Will).

 

[Fastfredy0]

You indicated in your posts that I am more loving than God sir, as I wouldn't torture people eternally whereas you state He will.

I never said you are more loving than God. That is a ridiculous assertion.
I repeated what God stated in scripture ... that those not in Christ will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (tortured) Revelation 20:14-15; Matthew 13:42; Matthew 8:12. If you wish to refute my statement, give scripture to do so.
Premise 1: Scripture states men will be tortured for eternity .. Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was hurled into the lake of fire and burning brimstone (sulfur), where the beast (Antichrist) and false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever.
Premise 2: you would not torture people for eternity if you were God
Conclusion: You feel you are more loving than God ... WOW

Christians believe that God is Love, and that one of His main qualities is Justice. His word gives us His idea of justice, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for life, now that is justice is it not.

Agreed. God is also a God of wrath. Christ’s command tells us to do good to those who hate us. It is like the natural benevolence that God shows toward all men (Matthew 5:43-45). But we should have “nothing but hatred” (Psalm 139:21-22) toward non-Christians in the sense that we oppose all of who they are, what they believe, and what they do. We strive to diminish their influence and undermine their agenda by the gospel of Jesus Christ. Contrary to popular belief, we are even to rejoice over God’s punishments upon the non-Christians. (Leviticus 20:23; Deuteronomy 18:12; Deuteronomy 25:16; Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:4-5,6; Psalm 11:5; Psalm 58:10a; Proverbs 3:32a; Proverbs 6:16–19; Nahum 1:2; Hosea 9:15; John 3:36b; Romans 9:13; Romans 9:22; Romans 12:9; 1 Corinthians 16:22; Revelation 14:10, 11; Revelation 18:20)

So you tell me, what sin could someone do in their short life span that would warrant such a judgment? But I will give you this sir, if God is going to torture people eternally in a lake of fire, I will be right there beside you, cursing the day that I had to be born under such a god. That would truly make satan a hero, to suffer the torture we will have to endure, to not give in to such an evil god.

One should worship the God of scripture. The God of scripture is not how you paint him in this post. Granted, we all get it wrong to some extent.
Revelation 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “Whoever worships the beast and his image and receives the mark [of the beast] on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he too will [have to] drink of the wine of the wrath of God, mixed undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone (flaming sulfur) in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb (Christ). 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night—those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

 

[journeyman]

You indicated in your posts that I am more loving than God sir, as I wouldn't torture people eternally whereas you state He will. Christians believe that God is Love, and that one of His main qualities is Justice. His word gives us His idea of justice, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for life, now that is justice is it not.

So you tell me, what sin could someone do in their short life span that would warrant such a judgment? But I will give you this sir, if God is going to torture people eternally in a lake of fire, I will be right there beside you, cursing the day that I had to be born under such a god. That would truly make satan a hero, to suffer the torture we will have to endure, to not give in to such an evil god.

Well said.

 

[Highway54]

Hypothetically, you take a ceramic class a create a coffee mug. This coffee mug then willfully refuses to allow you to drink your coffee from it (pouring hot coffee down your shirt every time). No matter what you say or do, this coffee cup, which you created with your own hands, refuses to serve the purpose for which you created it.

What will you do with this coffee cup?
Will you allow your children to drink from it and get burned with hot coffee?

(at this point, this is NOT a metaphor … you have a real problem with a real coffee cup that happens to have Free Will).

Good illustration At, and does drive home the point, the wicked cannot be allowed to stay to harm the righteous.

 

[Highway54]

I never said you are more loving than God. That is a ridiculous assertion.
I repeated what God stated in scripture ... that those not in Christ will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (tortured) Revelation 20:14-15; Matthew 13:42; Matthew 8:12. If you wish to refute my statement, give scripture to do so.
Premise 1: Scripture states men will be tortured for eternity .. Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was hurled into the lake of fire and burning brimstone (sulfur), where the beast (Antichrist) and false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever.
Premise 2: you would not torture people for eternity if you were God
Conclusion: You feel you are more loving than God ... WOW



Agreed. God is also a God of wrath. Christ’s command tells us to do good to those who hate us. It is like the natural benevolence that God shows toward all men (Matthew 5:43-45). But we should have “nothing but hatred” (Psalm 139:21-22) toward non-Christians in the sense that we oppose all of who they are, what they believe, and what they do. We strive to diminish their influence and undermine their agenda by the gospel of Jesus Christ. Contrary to popular belief, we are even to rejoice over God’s punishments upon the non-Christians. (Leviticus 20:23; Deuteronomy 18:12; Deuteronomy 25:16; Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:4-5,6; Psalm 11:5; Psalm 58:10a; Proverbs 3:32a; Proverbs 6:16–19; Nahum 1:2; Hosea 9:15; John 3:36b; Romans 9:13; Romans 9:22; Romans 12:9; 1 Corinthians 16:22; Revelation 14:10, 11; Revelation 18:20)


One should worship the God of scripture. The God of scripture is not how you paint him in this post. Granted, we all get it wrong to some extent.
Revelation 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “Whoever worships the beast and his image and receives the mark [of the beast] on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he too will [have to] drink of the wine of the wrath of God, mixed undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone (flaming sulfur) in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb (Christ). 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night—those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

I never said you are more loving than God. That is a ridiculous assertion.
I repeated what God stated in scripture ... that those not in Christ will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (tortured) Revelation 20:14-15; Matthew 13:42; Matthew 8:12. If you wish to refute my statement, give scripture to do so.
Premise 1: Scripture states men will be tortured for eternity .. Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was hurled into the lake of fire and burning brimstone (sulfur), where the beast (Antichrist) and false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever.
Premise 2: you would not torture people for eternity if you were God
Conclusion: You feel you are more loving than God ... WOW

And you would be correct, I am not, so logically since I would not torture people eternally with my limited love, why would God?

One should worship the God of scripture. The God of scripture is not how you paint him in this post. Granted, we all get it wrong to some extent.

Who is the God of Scripture sir?

 

[Fastfredy0]

And you would be correct, I am not, so logically since I would not torture people eternally with my limited love, why would God?

I assume for Justice as He is holy. The fact remains that I cited numerous verses saying God has people suffering eternally. You have not offered a different understanding of said verses. One must determine who God is and what He does based on what God has said. Where there is seeming conflict like God is love and God has people suffering for eternity one must delve more deeply to figure it out.
Here's some more possible answers to: Is hell real? Is hell eternal?

Is hell real? Is hell eternal? | GotQuestions.org

Is hell real? Is hell eternal? Will unbelievers truly suffer in hell forever?

www.gotquestions.org

Who is the God of Scripture sir?
Scripture defines the God of scripture. God is infinite. He is knowable, yet incomprehensible.

Isaiah 55:8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts higher than your thoughts. Let God define God and we just follow along.​

 

[Highway54]

Well said.

Thank you sir.

 

[atpollard]

Good illustration At, and does drive home the point, the wicked cannot be allowed to stay to harm the righteous.

Beyond that, you and I cannot destroy the coffee cup … even if we shatter it into splinters of ceramic, those splinters still exist and need to be placed SOMEWHERE!

God breathed His breath into Adam to make him a living being … we (people) cannot be destroyed, so we must be placed SOMEWHERE.

God exists for eternity, so His breath (our life force) might exist for eternity and will exist SOMEWHERE for eternity.

We had a small problem with a cup … God has creatures with His breath to deal with.

 

[journeyman]

Thank you sir.

I believr unsaved people will suffer as their sins are exposed at Christs' judgment seat. After that they will no longer exist.
The term "forever" may be applied to all that a does in this world, as in,

he shall serve him for ever. Exo.21:6

There, it means his life in this world. He doesn't mean the afterlife. Neither does Rev.20:10.

 

[Highway54]

I assume for Justice as He is holy. The fact remains that I cited numerous verses saying God has people suffering eternally. You have not offered a different understanding of said verses. One must determine who God is and what He does based on what God has said. Where there is seeming conflict like God is love and God has people suffering for eternity one must delve more deeply to figure it out.
Here's some more possible answers to: Is hell real? Is hell eternal?

Is hell real? Is hell eternal? | GotQuestions.org

Is hell real? Is hell eternal? Will unbelievers truly suffer in hell forever?

www.gotquestions.org

Who is the God of Scripture sir?
Scripture defines the God of scripture. God is infinite. He is knowable, yet incomprehensible.

Isaiah 55:8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts,​

Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,​

So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts higher than your thoughts. Let God define God and we just follow along.​

I assume you would like to know what hell is, since you have done research on it, likely because what people say God is going to do to others does not seem like Justice or out of Love either.

There are 4 words that some versions of the Bible translate hell. Let's start with the 2 most used, they are sheol in Hebrew, and hades in Greek.

1. How many times do they occur in the Bible?

2. How are they translated into English?

3. Are they the same place?

4. How are they defined?

5. With answering those questions, what is your conclusion of what kind of place they are Fred?

If you are having trouble finding the answers, the site Blue Letter Bible can assist you sir.

 

[Highway54]

Beyond that, you and I cannot destroy the coffee cup … even if we shatter it into splinters of ceramic, those splinters still exist and need to be placed SOMEWHERE!

God breathed His breath into Adam to make him a living being … we (people) cannot be destroyed, so we must be placed SOMEWHERE.

God exists for eternity, so His breath (our life force) might exist for eternity and will exist SOMEWHERE for eternity.

We had a small problem with a cup … God has creatures with His breath to deal with.

Sorry sir, we part company here, satan said we will not die, God said we would:
Ge 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

I stand on that as well sir. Life or death, that is what God offers. We can go more into detail on that if you like, as the Bible is clear on it.

 

[Highway54]

I believr unsaved people will suffer as their sins are exposed at Christs' judgment seat. After that they will no longer exist.
The term "forever" may be applied to all that a does in this world, as in,

he shall serve him for ever. Exo.21:6

There, it means his life in this world. He doesn't mean the afterlife. Neither does Rev.20:10.

Pretty simple sir, what does the Bible say the wages of sin is? Do you believe His words about it? If God is going to suffer people eternally in a volcano of fire, for their sins, what is the point?

 

[atpollard]

I stand on that as well sir. Life or death, that is what God offers. We can go more into detail on that if you like, as the Bible is clear on it.

Not really necessary ... it never really seemed worth arguing over (as IF we were going to change what God will do).
I assume that you mean "annihilationism". It is a comforting view (most of my family had little use for God). I am personally unconvinced from scripture that it is correct (I have seen the scripture for both sides).

Fortunately, I have enough TRUST that whatever GOD DOES will be RIGHT, so I just leave the BIG QUESTIONS in His hands. (They are above my pay grade.)

 

[atpollard]

Wasn't the point of my answer though sir, it was more of an identification of hell. The answer to your questions are both no. God's desire for all humans is this sir: 2pe 3:9 The Lord is . . . not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

While your thoughts are welcome, your opinions are irrelevant to the POLL.

"I know a Calvinist and you, Sir, are no Calvinist!" 😉

On a serious note, the POLL was to weigh the relative common/rarity of a specific view on Predestination (Active "positive-positive" Double Predestination). If you do not believe in PREDESTINATION at all, then this POLL was not really directed towards you.

As an aside, you should read the rest of the chapter surrounding 2 Peter 3, because you have completely missed what Peter was saying. It has to do with the SAINTS and when will JESUS RETURN and EVANGELISM and a question from scoffers. It is NOT about God loving those whom he will trample in the wine press of His wrath. [Revelation 19:15]

 

[Fastfredy0]

Trying to stay on topic. In post #40 you said:
"if God is going to torture people eternally in a lake of fire, I will be right there beside you, cursing the day that I had to be born under such a god. That would truly make satan a hero, to suffer the torture we will have to endure, to not give in to such an evil god."
So, the topic/debate is: You say God does not treat non-believers horribly after they die and I disagree.

I assume you would like to know what hell is, since you have done research on it, likely because what people say God is going to do to others does not seem like Justice or out of Love either.

Doesn't fit your definition of love and justice.
God decided to kill millions of babies in the time of Noah. Do you think an immutable God is JUST and/or LOVING in that activity? We are getting off topic. You say God does not treat non-believers horribly after they die and I disagree.

There are 4 words that some versions of the Bible translate hell. Let's start with the 2 most used, they are sheol in Hebrew, and hades in Greek.

1. How many times do they occur in the Bible?

2. How are they translated into English?

3. Are they the same place?

4. How are they defined?

5. With answering those questions, what is your conclusion of what kind of place they are Fred?

I don't know. The specifics of the topic are not of great interest to me. See https://www.gotquestions.org/sheol-hades-hell.html for some answers.
My conclusion is Hell, Lake of Fire, Hades, Sheol suck BIG TIME. What is your point.
The topic is: You say God does not treat non-believers horribly after they die and I disagree.
I gave verses to show God treats people terribly in hell, Lake of Fire, whatever place you want to call it. You have not explained how my interpretation is incorrect or given verses to contradict my verses.

 

[journeyman]

Pretty simple sir, what does the Bible say the wages of sin is? Do you believe His words about it? If God is going to suffer people eternally in a volcano of fire, for their sins, what is the point?

I agree with you about this matter. I don't believe our Father created anything, for the express purpose of destroying it.
I think one reason people get confused, is because our Lord referred to people as dead, while they were still living (Mt.8:22), but having the dead continue eternally is contrary to scripture.
Knowing our Savior better refutes never ending torment. We know by his Spirits' influence that no just person would torture another without end.

 

[Highway54]

Not really necessary ... it never really seemed worth arguing over (as IF we were going to change what God will do).
I assume that you mean "annihilationism". It is a comforting view (most of my family had little use for God). I am personally unconvinced from scripture that it is correct (I have seen the scripture for both sides).

Fortunately, I have enough TRUST that whatever GOD DOES will be RIGHT, so I just leave the BIG QUESTIONS in His hands. (They are above my pay grade.)

I may be a nut At, but I truly think every honest hearted person would be quite angered by a Father who got mad at their son for not doing what he told them and tortured them, burning them with a torch, tearing their flesh with belts, breaking bones, and keeping in mind this is temporary. I would absolutely be repulsed by that individual and want to abuse him. I certainly would not ever give allegiance or reverence to him, no matter if he had the highest authority on earth.

I am no different with God, there is right and wrong, if God tortures people eternally for the offenses they commit for their short lifespan, he is an unjust god, with whom I would deem my enemy. I would never give allegiance or reverence to him.

God chose to define what death is, and He was very careful to make sure He defined what the lake of fire is, and why it is necessary. If I prove to be in error in my understanding of it, and God is going to torture people eternally, I sincerely hope I have the strength to stand against him, because if I knuckle under I realize it will be just a matter of time before I p him off and end up there anyway. I would rather be tortured for making a stand for righteousness than to cower in fear because someone might harm me.

 

[Highway54]

While your thoughts are welcome, your opinions are irrelevant to the POLL.

"I know a Calvinist and you, Sir, are no Calvinist!" 😉

On a serious note, the POLL was to weigh the relative common/rarity of a specific view on Predestination (Active "positive-positive" Double Predestination). If you do not believe in PREDESTINATION at all, then this POLL was not really directed towards you.

As an aside, you should read the rest of the chapter surrounding 2 Peter 3, because you have completely missed what Peter was saying. It has to do with the SAINTS and when will JESUS RETURN and EVANGELISM and a question from scoffers. It is NOT about God loving those whom he will trample in the wine press of His wrath. [Revelation 19:15]

Yes sir you are correct, I am not a Calvinist, I am a Christian. I speak to people of all faiths, no matter who they choose to serve.

 

[Highway54]

Trying to stay on topic. In post #40 you said:
"if God is going to torture people eternally in a lake of fire, I will be right there beside you, cursing the day that I had to be born under such a god. That would truly make satan a hero, to suffer the torture we will have to endure, to not give in to such an evil god."
So, the topic/debate is: You say God does not treat non-believers horribly after they die and I disagree.


Doesn't fit your definition of love and justice.
God decided to kill millions of babies in the time of Noah. Do you think an immutable God is JUST and/or LOVING in that activity? We are getting off topic. You say God does not treat non-believers horribly after they die and I disagree.



I don't know. The specifics of the topic are not of great interest to me. See https://www.gotquestions.org/sheol-hades-hell.html for some answers.
My conclusion is Hell, Lake of Fire, Hades, Sheol suck BIG TIME. What is your point.
The topic is: You say God does not treat non-believers horribly after they die and I disagree.
I gave verses to show God treats people terribly in hell, Lake of Fire, whatever place you want to call it. You have not explained how my interpretation is incorrect or given verses to contradict my verses.

You say God does not treat non-believers horribly after they die and I disagree.

Nice we have settled that Fred.

Doesn't fit your definition of love and justice.
God decided to kill millions of babies in the time of Noah. Do you think an immutable God is JUST and/or LOVING in that activity? We are getting off topic. You say God does not treat non-believers horribly after they die and I disagree.

You are quite correct, God did kill those in the flood, but that logically isn't their final judgment. Jesus did compare the upcoming destruction to the flood, but this one is a determining factor for everlasting life. If one is destroyed when he returns, it will be permanent 2 Thes 1:6-9.

The specifics of the topic are not of great interest to me.

I see. If you ever want to discuss it, feel free to ask Fred.

 

[Highway54]

I agree with you about this matter. I don't believe our Father created anything, for the express purpose of destroying it.
I think one reason people get confused, is because our Lord referred to people as dead, while they were still living (Mt.8:22), but having the dead continue eternally is contrary to scripture.
Knowing our Savior better refutes never ending torment. We know by his Spirits' influence that no just person would torture another without end.

I agree that may very well contribute to the lack of understanding. Furthering it a bit, I believe it was a ploy to scare people who had some spirituality into serving God. Serving God out of fear is not His way, serving out of reverential fear (love) like one has for his human father is His way, He never forces anyone to serve Him, rather has given us free will to choose whom we will serve.