Does God control sin?

[SolaScriptura]

P

I am not trying to drag you back into the conversation.

Knowledge for anyone who is intereseted.....



Consider now the term permits. This is the preferred term in Arminian theology, in which it amounts to a denial that God causes sin. For the Arminian, God does not cause sin; he only permits it. Reformed theologians have also used the term, but they have insisted that God’s permission of sin is no less efficacious than his ordination of good. Calvin denies that there is any “mere permission” in God:

From this it is easy to conclude how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be not by [God’s] will, but merely by his permission. Of course, so far as they are evils, which men perpetrate with their evil mind, as I shall show in greater detail shortly, I admit that they are not pleasing to God. But it is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.34

God’s permission is an efficacious permission. Heppe describes it as voluntas efficaciter permittens and quotes J. H. Heidegger:

Nor whether He is willing or refusing is God’s permission like man’s permission, which admits of an eclipse which he neither wills nor refuses, as the Lombard and with him the Scholastics assert. It is effective, mighty, and not separate from God’s will at all. Otiose permission of sin separated from God’s will is repugnant both to the nature of the First Cause and to the divine and almighty foresight, to His nature and to Scripture.35

If God’s permission is efficacious, how does it differ from other exercises of his will? Evidently, the Reformed use permit mainly as a more delicate term than cause, suggesting that God brings sin about with a kind of reluctance born of his holy hatred of it.

This usage does reflect a biblical pattern. When Satan acts, he acts, in an obvious sense, by God’s permission.36 God allows him to take Job’s family, wealth, and health. But God will not allow Satan to take Job’s life (Job 2:6). So Satan is on a leash, acting only within limits set by God. In this respect, all sinful acts are similar. The sinner can go only so far before he meets the judgment of God.

It is appropriate, therefore, to use permission to refer to God’s ordination of sin. But we should not assume, as Arminians do, that divine permission is anything less than sovereign ordination. What God permits or allows to happen will happen. God could easily have prevented Satan’s attack on Job if he had intended to. That he did not prevent that attack implies that he intended it to happen. Permission, then, is a form of ordination, a form of causation.37 The fact that it is sometimes taken otherwise is a good argument for not using it, but perhaps not a decisive argument.

Because so called Reformed theology redefines the meaning of words to suit the theological system, like making FOREKNOW equivalent to FOREODAIN!

 

[electedbyhim]

Because so called Reformed theology redefines the meaning of words to suit the theological system, like making FOREKNOW equivalent to FOREODAIN!

Redefines?

The words are synonymous.

If the Lord "controls" sin and allows it, that means He "permits" it.

No?

 

[SolaScriptura]

Redefines?

The words are synonymous.

If the Lord "controls" sin and allows it, that means He "permits" it.

No?

Do you guys even understand the meaning of these English words that you use?

The Westminster Confession of Faith Says That God was PLEASED With The Fall of The Human Race.

“Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory” (On the Fall of Man)

Not only does the WCF say that God was PLEASED to ALLOW Adam and Eve to sin, and therefore the entire human race. But, it goes on to say, that God so PLANNED TO ORDER THEIR SIN TO HIS OWN GLORY.

This is the highest form of BLASPHEMY, as it clearly makes God the AUTHOR of our sins, and that He takes PLEASURE in our SINNING!!!

The Oxford English Dictionary defines PLEASED:

“Affected by feelings of satisfaction or pleasure; contented, gratified, in good humour”

And ORDER:

The English language is from US, the ENGLISH race, as is defined as WE have done so!

“Of the Deity, etc.: To regulate or determine (occurrences, events, etc.); to ordain”

 

[electedbyhim]

Do you guys even understand the meaning of these English words that you use?

The Westminster Confession of Faith Says That God was PLEASED With The Fall of The Human Race.

“Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory” (On the Fall of Man)

Not only does the WCF say that God was PLEASED to ALLOW Adam and Eve to sin, and therefore the entire human race. But, it goes on to say, that God so PLANNED TO ORDER THEIR SIN TO HIS OWN GLORY.

This is the highest form of BLASPHEMY, as it clearly makes God the AUTHOR of our sins, and that He takes PLEASURE in our SINNING!!!

The Oxford English Dictionary defines PLEASED:

“Affected by feelings of satisfaction or pleasure; contented, gratified, in good humour”

And ORDER:

The English language is from US, the ENGLISH race, as is defined as WE have done so!

“Of the Deity, etc.: To regulate or determine (occurrences, events, etc.); to ordain”

Scripture is clear, God ordains and controls sin.


Prove it wrong from Scripture.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Redefines?

The words are synonymous.

If the Lord "controls" sin and allows it, that means He "permits" it.

No?

like some of the "Reformed", cannot accept the PLAIN teaching of John 3:16, that God Loves the entire human race with a SAVING LOVE, and has sought to PERVERT what the Greek KOSMOS means here, by saying that it only includes the ELECT!!!

 

[SolaScriptura]

Scripture is clear, God ordains and controls sin.


Prove it wrong from Scripture.

Good luck with your TWISTED use of words. I have already PROVEN your "theology" is TOTALLY WRONG!

I will not comment any further with people who WREST the Word of God and the ENGLISH language for their own WARPED purposes!

 

[electedbyhim]

like some of the "Reformed", cannot accept the PLAIN teaching of John 3:16, that God Loves the entire human race with a SAVING LOVE, and has sought to PERVERT what the Greek KOSMOS means here, by saying that it only includes the ELECT!!!

Anyone who is saved is God's elect.

 

[electedbyhim]

Good luck with your TWISTED use of words. I have already PROVEN your "theology" is TOTALLY WRONG!

I will not comment any further with people who WREST the Word of God and the ENGLISH language for their own WARPED purposes!

Sola, you proved no such thing my friend.

I am certain anyone following this thread will also say that you did not prove anything.

If I am wrong, someone please point this out to me.

 

[jasonc]

Sola, you proved no such thing my friend.

I am certain anyone following this thread will also say that you did not prove anything.

If I am wrong, someone please point this out to me.

The wcf uses depending on which one . Elizabeth,Oxford or modern English .

 

[SolaScriptura]

The wcf uses depending on which one . Elizabeth,Oxford or modern English .

As originally written which is what really matters.

Modifying it means nothing

 

[electedbyhim]

As originally written which is what really matters.

Modifying it means nothing

The Bible is the authority.

God controls the sinful actions of humans

Gen 45:4-8; 50:20; 2 Sam 24:1 [compare 1 Chr 21:1]; Isa 10:5; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28 [compare Matt 17:12]).

 

[jasonc]

As originally written which is what really matters.

Modifying it means nothing

In Hebrew and koine Greek?

Without chapter ,sentence as we know it ?

You literally are arguing that God isn't control but then says He permits .

I need govt permission from the state to drive ,own a car ,operate it,own my house ,don't pay ad valorem.,build anything on a lot without a permit and see what happens .

If Satan killed job would God just shrug and get angry ? If Satan is not able to defy God in any hindrance God makes then what ?

What stops man from nuking all of creation to dust ?

Notice it says I raises up kings and nations .they but a drop to me .

Strange one you are ,you argue that God gave us free will then says he permits sin .and argue that God doesn't control sin .

Funny thing I'm not a Calvinist .I'm neither am arminist .both have flaws.

God planning for sin to occur isn't whopps they sinned ,quick Jesus go die for them and the two decide when it's right and it's why millienia after the fall the cross happens .

 

[SolaScriptura]

God planning for sin to occur

this means that God is the AUTHOR of sin. Period!

Stop playing around with words, when it is clear that you don't even know what they mean!

Check the meaning of PLAN, and you might then see you are 100% WRONG!

 

[jasonc]

this means that God is the AUTHOR of sin. Period!

Stop playing around with words, when it is clear that you don't even know what they mean!

Check the meaning of PLAN, and you might then see you are 100% WRONG!

No it doesn't .
Really ? So In the new age since God made us with free choice ,I can up and leave God and he will just let me and not judge me
?
Freedom to choice then must always exist .therefore God can't do away with sin .

Why? Because having a choice to sin ,means someone always will choose it .yet the bible doesn't teach free will as you state it .

He let Adam and Eve choose sin and could have judged them and slay them and started over but didn't .

You do know the modern English and middle English have words that are archaic .

Can you read Shakespeare English easily and old maps ,documents and understand it ?

Try reading old survey maps of Florida by the English .that's fun archiaic words that don't exist in common use .

God knowing man would sin and foreknowing it would happen and letting it happen in no waysmakes him the author .

So your choices and life and whatever chooses you made good or bad you simply can't see God doing that to make you ?
Degrees ,degrees.

I recall Joseph saying this .

Genesis 45

 

[electedbyhim]

this means that God is the AUTHOR of sin. Period!

Stop playing around with words, when it is clear that you don't even know what they mean!

Check the meaning of PLAN, and you might then see you are 100% WRONG!

I have asked you several times what these verses mean.

God controls the sinful actions of humans

Gen 45:4-8; 50:20; 2 Sam 24:1 [compare 1 Chr 21:1]; Isa 10:5; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28 [compare Matt 17:12]).

 

[Fastfredy0]

The glory of God, not the happiness of the creature, is the true theodicy of sin.
“The entire problem of theodicy arises from a wrong question or a wrong presumption. Rather one should see God as essentially good and deriving the definition of good from observing the one true and living God. We abstract an idea of good and then try to measure God against that human abstraction. That is always a losing proposition because we don’t know what ‘good’ is. The problem occurs when persons come up to us and says “if God does this, He can’t be good.” They don’t realize that is an internal contradiction. The only God that exists is a God who is good. He defines what is good by consistency with His own character, and not by the fact that He corresponds to some arbitrary understanding of good. But we must never fall into the trap – we can’t accept the presumption that we are trying to define God over against a human abstraction called “good.” Instead we have to simply come back again and again to the fact that God is good. Whatever He does is good. Albert Mohler

The glory of God, not the happiness of the creature, is the true theodicy of sin. William G.T. Shedd. Dogmatic Theology

 

[electedbyhim]

The glory of God, not the happiness of the creature, is the true theodicy of sin.
“The entire problem of theodicy arises from a wrong question or a wrong presumption. Rather one should see God as essentially good and deriving the definition of good from observing the one true and living God. We abstract an idea of good and then try to measure God against that human abstraction. That is always a losing proposition because we don’t know what ‘good’ is. The problem occurs when persons come up to us and says “if God does this, He can’t be good.” They don’t realize that is an internal contradiction. The only God that exists is a God who is good. He defines what is good by consistency with His own character, and not by the fact that He corresponds to some arbitrary understanding of good. But we must never fall into the trap – we can’t accept the presumption that we are trying to define God over against a human abstraction called “good.” Instead we have to simply come back again and again to the fact that God is good. Whatever He does is good. Albert Mohler

The glory of God, not the happiness of the creature, is the true theodicy of sin. William G.T. Shedd. Dogmatic Theology

Instead we have to simply come back again and again to the fact that God is good. Whatever He does is good. Albert Mohler

Indeed.

 

[SolaScriptura]

In what way does God "control" mass murders, serial killers and rapists?

How can God be said to "control" these heneous sins like what Hitler did?

I am not too interested in the twists by some of the so called Reformed

 

[electedbyhim]

In what way does God "control" mass murders, serial killers and rapists?

How can God be said to "control" these heneous sins like what Hitler did?

I am not too interested in the twists by some of the so called Reformed

Is not the torture and crucifixtion of Jesus Christ 10x worse than any of what you mentioned?

And yet the Lord ordained (predetermined plan) it, for our purpose and His glory.

How do you explain that?

 

[electedbyhim]

In what way does God "control" mass murders, serial killers and rapists?

How can God be said to "control" these heneous sins like what Hitler did?

I am not too interested in the twists by some of the so called Reformed

Why is it that you do not answer my questions.

You rail against what we post, but have no answers for us why we are wrong.