Innerfire89
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Its not that confessing faith is what saves, but that faith is present in the heart and the mouth gives the evidence
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Does God hear the prayer of the Lost person other than the prayer for salvation
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Its not that confessing faith is what saves, but that faith is present in the heart and the mouth gives the evidence
Jim Parker
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In the heart, in the mouth and by your works.
You have heard the saying, "Talk is cheap."
James said, "Faith without works is dead".
Innerfire89
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You mean that works are evidence of true faith? I just wanted to make sure I'm understanding correctly.
That's not how the scriptures read.
Indwelling through the seal of God's holy spirit till the end of time is what informs the new creature, the redeemed former sinner who is now no longer dead in their sin but alive in the body of Christ, who is the holy spirit that is God the father, is what communicates to and leads that new creature, the Christian, to serve God's purpose in this world.
They are led to therefore work on behalf of the Kingdom, which is within them as Christ said as per Luke 17:21.
Working for the kingdom being compelled or led by the holy spirit isn't a matter of what secures that person being in Christ. Rather, it is evidence of their being alive in Christ. Because they are doing the work of God at God's leading. It is proof of their being in Christ because it is an example of being Christ like being Christ was giving, charitable, loving, toward people during his earthly ministry. Demonstrating by his own actions the power of God indwelling what to others appeared as a mere man.
Jim Parker
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If someone says they have faith in Jesus but does not strive to do as Jesus commanded, that person is deceived or a liar.
Faith in Jesus means that you have submitted to Him as your Lord and, since He is your Lord, you do as He commanded.
What did Jesus command?
(1) Love God. (Mat 22:37-38)
(2) Love your neighbor. (Mat 22:39)
(3) Even love your enemy.
(4) Bless those who curse you.
(5) Do good to those who hate you.
(6) Pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you. (Mat 5:44)
(The Biblical definition of 'love" can be found at 1 Cor 13:4-8a)
(7) Do good works. (Mat 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
(Biblical examples of "good works" can be found at Mat 25:35-36)
(8) Forgive those who sin against you if you want to be forgiven your sins. (Mat 6:15)
(9) Be merciful if you want to receive mercy. (Mat 5:7)
And many more
IN short; if someone has faith then then he should act like he has faith and it should be obvious to everyone.
It's like when Jesus told the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.” and the pharisees had a fit because only God can forgive sins.
So Jesus asked them:
“For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”
And he arose and departed to his house. (Mat 9:2 -7)
In a similar manner, it's easy to say; "I'm a Christian." It's easy to talk like a Christian and to quote scripture like a Christian (especially around other Christians) but it's an entirely other thing to actually ACT like a Christian.
(1Jo 4:20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can[he love God whom he has not seen?)
Consider the lives of St. Francis of Assisi and Mother Theresa of Calcutta.
They didn't just talk the talk.
We shouldn't either.
iakov the fool
Innerfire89
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Yes, but what I'm asking is, is justification by faith alone or faith plus works? Not if faith and works can be separated.
Innerfire89
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Were not on the same page here, of course the indwelling of the Holy Spirit causes the believer to be Christ like.
I'm simply asking if he meant if we were justified by faith alone or faith plus works.
Jim Parker
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AH! That's easy.
Here's what the Bible says: (Jas 2:24) You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Jim Parker
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Actually, it ENABLES the believer to be Christ like. The believer has to exert his own effort to conform to Jesus' image.
For example:
Eph 4:17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of[fn] the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
Eph 4:28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.
Rom 6:19b For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
Rom 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Rom 12:9-19 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”says the Lord.
And there are many, many more such instructions which, if the Holy Spirit just made us do these things automatically, a lot of the NT would be totally unnecessary.
So, yes, as the Bible specifically says: ...as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (Jas 2:26)
As I am sure that you are aware, nothing that is dead can give life. Dead, workless, faith cannot give eternal life.
iakov the fool
Innerfire89
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I'm sure this debate has been batted around enough already and I don't want to derail the thread. So I will simply say that in my understand of James 2:24 is that man is justifed before other men by their works, his works show is faith to be true.
Before God we are justifed by faith alone because of Christ works, but that faith is not alone.
Innerfire89
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Good works are preordained for us to do by God, of course we are willing to do them and to obey Christ out of love, but it's all within God's planning what works we will do.
Ephesians 3:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them
We agree that faith without works is dead, if you love Christ you obey him.
Jim Parker
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That's what scripture tells us.
Jhn 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments."
But Jesus did not say; "The Holy Spirit will cause you to keep my commandments."
WE have to take responsibility and to exert the effort to obey Him.
It doesn't come naturally. What comes naturally is that sin dwelling in our flesh fights against us tooth and nail every step of our way in our desire to keep His commandments.
But neither can we keep His commandments without the power of the Holy Spirit working within us.
God will not force us to do His will.
We have to choose to do it and we choose to do it because we trust (have faith) that His will for us is perfect and, because we have faith, we act upon it, not out of compulsion but out of a desire to please God "Who so loved the world..."
iakov the fool
Jim Parker
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That understanding is completely contrary to the teaching of scripture.
Luk 16:15 And (Jesus) said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God."
And we will not answer to "other men" at the judgment.
According to Jesus, here's how He will judge mankind:
Jhn 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Jesus will judge us based on whether we have done good or done evil.
Paul said the same thing.
Rom 2:6-10 God “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Jesus will judge us based on whether or not we did acts of mercy. (Which are "good works.")
Mat 25:34-36 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me."
and
Mat 25:41-43 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me."
aned
Mat 25:46 And these (merciless) will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous (merciful) into eternal life.
No one earns salvation by doing good works.
Salvation is by grace through faith.
By grace because it is by the power of God's power that saves those who trust Him.
No one will enter the kingdom of heaven who does not obey Jesus' commandments and do the good works for which God created him to walk in.
Only those whose faith is demonstrated by their works will be called righteous in God's sight.
Jas 2:21-22 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
iakov the fool
There are some variants that append the teachings of Emmanuel as to impart works sustain faith and by proxy then commute the damned unto salvation through those mechanisms. However, I believe in following the teachings of Emmanuel Christ first we have to concur with what Christ taught and ultimately died to seal as the Father's new covenant with the worlds people.
In the new testament remember Emmanuel is God the Father. Therefore we may consider the foundation principles upon which the new covenant was bestowed through God's grace by looking to that which occurred in the old testament prior to the crucifixion of Emmanuel and as pertains to matters of saving faith.
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
And this then recalled by the apostle Paul in his writing, epistle , which means letter, to the churches in Rome.
Romans 4:1-5
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Jim Parker
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In my reading this morning, I came across these verses which I believe address that understanding.
Speaking of the scribes and Pharisees, whom He called hypocrites, Jesus said concerning doing works for others to see: “But all their works they do to be seen by men." (Mat 23:5)
So Jesus had no respect for works done to be seen by men.
Paul said: "And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men," (Col 3:23)
And so Paul said to do your works as unto God, not as unto men.
Both those statements directly refute the idea that we do good works in order to be justified before other men.
iakov the fool
Jim Parker
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That is incorrect.
Mat 1:20-23
But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.v
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
So, the son brought forth by the virgin who is called Immanuel is named Jesus Who is God the Son.
By that, it appears you suggest that God the Father was crucified.
It was God the Son who was crucified.
Paul was making the case that no one is justified by works of the Law. He was not referring to the good works for which God created us that we should make them our habitual manner of living. (i,e,: "walk in them")
(Eph 2:10)
James complemented that teaching in response to the false teaching that a believer is not commanded by God to do good works.
Jas 2:20-24 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
iakov the fool
The very scripture you post revokes your claim that Emmanuel was not God. Please do not post falsehoods on the eve of Resurrection Day. Thank you.
Was Jesus God?
The answer of the Bible is an unqualified “Yes!” The Bible teaches that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit are one, and yet they are three. Note these statements from Scripture:
Jesus claimed to be “one” with the Father. They accused Jesus of blasphemy for making Himself equal with God (see also John 5). Jesus did not deny these charges. It is what He claimed, and what they thought He claimed. Thomas, on seeing the resurrected Christ, proclaimed, “My Lord and My God” (John 20:28).
John 1:51—Angels ascend and descend on the Son of Man (Jesus), which is an image that is found in Jacob’s dream in Genesis 28:12. John 14:9 “He who has seen Me has seen the Father.”
While men and angels refuse worship, since they are not God, Jesus accepts worship as God: See John 9:38; Acts 10:25-26; Matthew 28:9; Matthew 14:33; Matthew 2:11; Revelation 19:9-10; 1:9-20.
Other texts refer to our Lord as both Jesus and God: John 11:4; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; 1 John 5:20
Other texts which apply to this issue are: Hebrews 1:1-4; Philippians 2:5ff.; Colossians 2:9; Revelation 1:9-20
As to the possibility that Jesus is somehow a diminished version or representation of God, I would particularly consider: Hebrews 1:1-4; Colossians 1:15-19 (note especially v. 19); Colossians 2:19.
Related Topics: Christology
The answer of the Bible is an unqualified “Yes!” The Bible teaches that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit are one, and yet they are three. Note these statements from Scripture:
Isaiah 7:14 /Matthew 1:23 = Messiah/Jesus is to be named “Imanuel,” which means, God with us.
Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Mark 2:1-12 “No one can forgive sins but God alone”
Mark 10:18 (also Luke 18:19) “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone?”
Our Lord existed in eternity past. He was the Creator (John 1:1-3; Col 1:15-19). He existed before Abraham (John 8:58). See Micah 5:2. John 10:30-33, 36-28Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Mark 2:1-12 “No one can forgive sins but God alone”
Mark 10:18 (also Luke 18:19) “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone?”
Jesus claimed to be “one” with the Father. They accused Jesus of blasphemy for making Himself equal with God (see also John 5). Jesus did not deny these charges. It is what He claimed, and what they thought He claimed. Thomas, on seeing the resurrected Christ, proclaimed, “My Lord and My God” (John 20:28).
John 1:51—Angels ascend and descend on the Son of Man (Jesus), which is an image that is found in Jacob’s dream in Genesis 28:12. John 14:9 “He who has seen Me has seen the Father.”
While men and angels refuse worship, since they are not God, Jesus accepts worship as God: See John 9:38; Acts 10:25-26; Matthew 28:9; Matthew 14:33; Matthew 2:11; Revelation 19:9-10; 1:9-20.
Other texts refer to our Lord as both Jesus and God: John 11:4; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; 1 John 5:20
Other texts which apply to this issue are: Hebrews 1:1-4; Philippians 2:5ff.; Colossians 2:9; Revelation 1:9-20
As to the possibility that Jesus is somehow a diminished version or representation of God, I would particularly consider: Hebrews 1:1-4; Colossians 1:15-19 (note especially v. 19); Colossians 2:19.
Related Topics: Christology
Note: For academic treatment on this topic, see earlier article posted on bible.org. The final form of this work was included in the Christian Research Journal (vol 31.4 [2008]).
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