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Does God LOVE everybody

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No . Not for most of the world. Multitudes of idolators, perverts, greedy, liars, adulterers, who never repent never are made holy, never are made without blame before Him , they suffer righteous judgment and are not allowed in heaven ever.
Gods love was for people like that and Christ saved them from their sins. Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
1 Cor 6:9-11

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Thats what Gods love saved people from through Jesus Christ
 
God's love for people is eternal, and is why He Saves some people, and not all people.
The wicked, unrepentant people are still under judgment, and many remain there right up to judgment day, when they are dismissed without recourse, with no hope then.
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
..... shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Do you hate your parents?

Do you hate your family?


When you actually study God’s word you will see that God preferrred Jacob over Esau to be the generational bloodline of the Messiah.

This is the contextual meaning of hate. Context is key.

Just as Jesus told His disciples that if anyone doesn’t hate his father or mother or family he can not be my disciple.

Again, hate here simple means that you love and prefer to serve Jesus over your parents and family.


No such thing as elected for salvation in scripture.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
 
Do you hate your parents?

Do you hate your family?


When you actually study God’s word you will see that God preferrred Jacob over Esau to be the generational bloodline of the Messiah.

This is the contextual meaning of hate. Context is key.

Just as Jesus told His disciples that if anyone doesn’t hate his father or mother or family he can not be my disciple.

Again, hate here simple means that you love and prefer to serve Jesus over your parents and family.


No such thing as elected for salvation in scripture.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
God doesnt love everyone, scripture tells us plainly He hated esau Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
 
God doesnt love everyone, scripture tells us plainly He hated esau Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Answer the questions.

Do you hate your parents?

Do you hate your family?


When you actually study God’s word you will see that God preferrred Jacob over Esau to be the generational bloodline of the Messiah.

This is the contextual meaning of hate. Context is key.

Just as Jesus told His disciples that if anyone doesn’t hate his father or mother or family he can not be my disciple.

Again, hate here simple means that you love and prefer to serve Jesus over your parents and family.


No such thing as elected for salvation in scripture.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
 
Is Paul offering a Calvinist statement here that belief in Christ is granted by God only to certain, arbitrarily selected, lost people? Well, if you come to the verse already thinking this is the case, the verse will seem to confirm your presupposition. But as someone who is not wearing such a "lens," when I read the verse, I understand Paul to be saying merely that God has granted a Savior to the Philippian Christians
Yes, it all depends upon your over all understanding of the whole counsel of God. Paul himself does not teach your "free will" view.

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace
Rom 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God

Paul was perpetrated from before birth to be an apostle and to preach the gospel.

When Ananias questioned God about putting hands on Saul, he complained about all the bad that Saul had done.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.

Paul was separated from his mothers womb and called to be an apostle.
Seperate = aphorizō
From G575 (apo) "from," and G3724 (horizo) "to determine"

Paul in other letters:
2Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

I do not see your "God only ordained a plan, and that plan was that everybody who by their own free will who hears the gospel and then accepts and believes will be saved."

You do see that by default. That is the default position of everybody, even me when I first read the Bible. It takes study, 20 maybe 30 years of wrestling with Scripture to get that human centered understanding out of your head.

The ultimate purpose of God is His being glorified, and not man's feeling good about himself.
 
Answer the questions.

Do you hate your parents?

Do you hate your family?


When you actually study God’s word you will see that God preferrred Jacob over Esau to be the generational bloodline of the Messiah.

This is the contextual meaning of hate. Context is key.

Just as Jesus told His disciples that if anyone doesn’t hate his father or mother or family he can not be my disciple.

Again, hate here simple means that you love and prefer to serve Jesus over your parents and family.


No such thing as elected for salvation in scripture.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
God doesnt love everyone, scripture tells us plainly He hated esau Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
I already answered those questions, doesnt change the fact God doesnt love everybody Rom 9:13
13 As it is written,
Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
 
God's love for people is eternal, and is why He Saves some people, and not all people.
The wicked, unrepentant people are still under judgment, and many remain there right up to judgment day, when they are dismissed without recourse, with no hope then.

..... shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
God doesnt save all people because He doesnt love all people !
 
God loves everyone in some way, but He doesn't love everyone the same. This distinction has to be realized, or else bad theology results. The Bible says that God hates those people who slander others and cause division among "brothers" (relatives, clans, tribes, groups, fellowshipers, etc.). If God's love is ultimate, then His hate is ultimate also. If God's mercy is ultimate, then His condemnation is ultimate also.

Nevertheless, there are degrees of love and hate as well. When Jesus said that people are to hate relatives and themselves, it is in comparison to their love for Him. So then, when one chooses to obey God rather than parents or relatives, it can appear like hate to the relative. For example, a person chooses to disobey parents when they want (and try to coerce) that child to marry a certain person because of worldly reasons, but instead that child leaves home to marry another Christian, whom the parents don't like. It appears as hate to them, especially in a culture where the child is supposed to marry whom the parents choose. That's just one example.

When God said "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated," people assume that God "looked ahead" to see Esau's ungodliness, and then decided to "hate" Esau (in comparison to His love for Jacob). However, this is not Paul's argument in Rom. 9. Paul wrote, "before they did anything good or bad, in order that election might stand", so Paul's argument excludes the "look ahead" idea, and focuses on God choosing to love someone over someone else, since he also quotes God saying, "I will have mercy on whom I desire."

Now, if you claim that God desires to have mercy based on His "look ahead" to see who is better at faith or obedience, then you claim that God's mercy is merited by a person's future works (behavior, decisions, choices, etc.). But if mercy is merited by future faith or anything a person does, then it's not mercy. At least it's not ultimate mercy.

Ultimate mercy is defined by Paul in Eph. 2:5, saying, "even while we were dead in transgressions and sins" (that is, having no interest in anything Godly), "He raised us up and seated us in the heavenly places in Christ (by grace are you saved)." IOW, God's free grace is the mercy Paul is talking about, and it is not given to anyone except the one whom God chooses to give it, according to Paul in Rom. 9 and Eph. 2. Thus, God loves some more than others. And such love is defined by the best action one does to bless another. It has little to do with affections and sentiment.

Most people receive justice from God, as "the wages of sin is death." But some receive mercy, since mercy is the exception and is not justice, since "but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." God's gift of life is a free gift, and is given in spite of the lack of interest in godliness. It is when the person receives that gift (as a passive reception, described in Eph. 2:5), that the interest of that person changes to desire godliness. We can talk about the details, how the desires are transitioned, etc., but the point is that when a person receives that special love from God, it is the act of God, and the reaction of the person is the result.

Yes, God "wants all men to come to the knowledge of the truth," but the reality is that only a subset is elected for salvation. This is because all people are so bound in sin, that it takes a supernatural act of God to wake up a person to spiritual truth and to realize the hope that Jesus is their only way to eternal life. The point of all this is that "God causes all things to work together for the good of those who love Him, who are the called according to His purpose" means that God loved us first, more than He loves everyone else who never come to know Christ. If someone loves God, it is because God has granted them the knowledge of Himself and the wisdom to obey Him.
This is true; however, the English word 'hate,' in both Greek and Hebrew literally means "to love less." So, the love is still there, but at a lesser degree.
 
This is true; however, the English word 'hate,' in both Greek and Hebrew literally means "to love less." So, the love is still there, but at a lesser degree.
If God said that he HATES the hands that shed innocent blood, do you think it means "to love less"? In some sense, there is some love involved, that is, mercy, that God is patient toward such people. Otherwise, he would immediately kill them justly and send them to torment in Hades. God also is patient toward wicked people to use them as He sees fit, for His own purpose (Rom. 9 et. al.) and to afflict His people (Heb. 12 et. al.), and He says that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. So then, neither is the common love of God downplayed in scripture, nor is the just hate of God downplayed. God is both just and the justifier of the one having faith in Jesus. "Behold the kindness and severity of God..." "The one who believes has eternal life [recipient of love/grace], but the one who does not believe will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" [recipient of hate/justice].

Missionaries tell us that about 4% of people are being saved (I assume they are talking about genuine faith). This means that 96% of people are being passed over (not chosen for adoption). Therefore, we who believe in Jesus should feel extremely fortunate and blessed by God to have been chosen out of the world. We should be highly motivated to obey God and attempt to persuade people to join us in this marvelous walk of faith.
 
If God Loved all men without exception, whats the Point of Jesus telling His disciples this ? Jn 14:21

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If God already Loved everyone in the world without exception, then this statement by Christ was a waste of time, and not really meaningful, since all who are in the world breaking God's commandments are Loved too.
 
Yes, it all depends upon your over all understanding of the whole counsel of God. Paul himself does not teach your "free will" view.

Well, again, this is a statement of one who has on the interpretive lenses of a Calvinist. As one without a Calvinist soteriological commitment, I think Paul does confirm genuine creaturely freedom.

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace
Rom 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God

Paul was perpetrated from before birth to be an apostle and to preach the gospel.

Galatians 1:13-16
13 For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it;
14 and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions.
15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,


Did God decree that Paul should persecute the Church? If God decreed all that came to pass in Paul's life, as Reformed doctrine asserts, then, yes, God was at the bottom of Paul's attempted destruction of the Early Church, as well as the Cause of Paul's conversion. It's a very strange event and conversation that Christ had with Paul, then, on the road to Damascus, isn't it?

Acts 9:1-5
1 Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest,
2 and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3 As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;
4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,


If Calvinism is correct, Jesus knew very well why Saul (later, Paul) was persecuting the Church, the "Body of Christ." Jesus was the reason for Paul's persecution of the Church. As God, Jesus had ordained (according to Calvinism) that Paul should "breathe threats and murders against the disciples of the Lord." Why, then, does he query Paul about his reasons for pursuing Christians? In fact, why does Jesus bother at all with the whole Damscus Road event? Why not just compel Paul, by sovereign, divine decree, to convert to Christianity? Why did Jesus give the impression, by the extraordinary event on the Damascus Road, that he was trying to persuade Paul to a different course? If everything Paul was doing was ordained of God, the whole thing on the roadway was a farce and Christ's question ought to have been instead a statement like, "Saul, Saul, you are doing well in acting in just the way I have ordained that you should."

God is powerful enough, I believe, to have decided that Paul would serve Him among the Gentiles long before Paul existed without coercing Paul by divine fiat to do so. God is great enough that He does not have to meticulously control every move His chosen vessels make in order to see them accomplish His will. It certainly doesn't follow necessarily that, because Paul was set apart unto God in the womb, God therefore had to override Paul's free agency and coerce him into service to Himself. As I said, God is not so weak that He needs to do this in order to see His will accomplished. This view of God, I believe, makes better sense of the Damascus Road event than the Reformed view does. Under Calvinist dogma, as I said, the whole exchange in the roadway is a misleading farce. But if what God did on the road to Damascus with Paul was persuade Paul to forsake a course He had not ordained, nor approved of, then Jesus's question and the whole manner of the event - the disembodied voice, knocking Paul down, blinding him, sending Ananias to him, etc. - makes much better sense.


Romans 1:1
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,


The word "called" in Greek is "kletos" meaning "invitation." Not compelled, not coerced, not forced, invited. Only if one has a Calvinist lens on must "called" mean "sovereignly compelled." And Paul's Damascus Road experience was certainly more in keeping with the former definition than the latter, in my view.

I do not see your "God only ordained a plan, and that plan was that everybody who by their own free will who hears the gospel and then accepts and believes will be saved."

Well, of course you don't. You've got an established commitment to Calvinist doctrine to maintain.

You do see that by default. That is the default position of everybody, even me when I first read the Bible. It takes study, 20 maybe 30 years of wrestling with Scripture to get that human centered understanding out of your head.

No, I think the natural, straightforward, "default" statement of God's word is that Man possesses free agency, bestowed by God. This is what makes us genuinely responsible for our choices. Because we are genuinely response-able (and not forced by God to what we do, or don't do), we are properly responsible. This is so evident in Scripture, that it takes decades of saturation in the Calvinist contortion of Scripture to be convinced that it isn't there.

The ultimate purpose of God is His being glorified, and not man's feeling good about himself.

No one has said otherwise. I haven't, anyway.
 
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God doesnt love everyone, scripture tells us plainly He hated esau Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
I already answered those questions, doesnt change the fact God doesnt love everybody Rom 9:13
13 As it is written,
Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Do you hate your family?
 
Well, again, this is a statement of one who has on the interpretive lenses of a Calvinist. As one without a Calvinist soteriological commitment, I think Paul does confirm genuine creaturely freedom.
Yes, you think that because you have a normal human centered "man has free will" interpretative lens on.

Did God decree that Paul should persecute the Church? If God decreed all that came to pass in Paul's life, as Reformed doctrine asserts, then, yes, God was at the bottom of Paul's attempted destruction of the Early Church, as well as the Cause of Paul's conversion. It's a very strange event and conversation that Christ had with Paul, then, on the road to Damascus, isn't it?
Nothing strange about it. Did God not know where Adam was?
Gen 3:9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, "Where are you?"

Did God not know that they had eaten from the tree?
Gen 3:11 . . . Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?"

God uses psychology on us like a parent does with their child. Asks questions they already know the answer to in order to convict us or give us a chance to confess.
And when you think about it, they didn't have much of a conversation.
Acts 9:5 Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."
Acts 9:6 Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

If Calvinism is correct, Jesus knew very well why Saul (later, Paul) was persecuting the Church, the "Body of Christ."
Yes, see above. Psychology.

n fact, why does Jesus bother at all with the whole Damscus Road event? Why not just compel Paul, by sovereign, divine decree, to convert to Christianity?
Because Paul didn't know at that time that he had been ordained to do all this. This breaking into Paul's life was part of that sovereign plan to convert Paul to Christianity. It worked didn't it?
You forget that Calvinism (or the Bible) teaches that God works through means.
God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
Here is how Webster's 1828 dictionary defines "contingency"
1. The quality of being contingent or casual; a happening; or the possibility of coming to pass.
"Second causes"
God typically works out his purposes through human decisions, natural laws, and the many causes and reactions that are constantly at play in ordinary life--what the Westminster Confession refers to as "second causes."

A "second cause" is simply "a cause caused by something else." This expression is used in theology to distinguish between God as the ultimate cause of everything that comes to pass and the myriad smaller causes we see at work in the world.

Some of these second causes are as necessary as the laws of physics. Others are as free as the decision to order a cheeseburger. But whether things happen by necessity or contingency, they all occur under the overarching providence of God. Even chance and probability are the servants of his will.


This is getting too long. I'd better quit.
 
I will pick up where I left off.
Why did Jesus give the impression, by the extraordinary event on the Damascus Road, that he was trying to persuade Paul to a different course?
Because He was persuading Paul to a different course. Again, Calvinism is not mechanical fatalism. Jesus doing what He did was part of that eternal decree. God works through means, like persuading Paul.

Under Calvinist dogma, as I said, the whole exchange in the roadway is a misleading farce.
No, only under your misunderstood idea of Calvinism as mechanical fatalism.

But if what God did on the road to Damascus with Paul was persuade Paul to forsake a course He had not ordained, nor approved of, then Jesus's question and the whole manner of the event - the disembodied voice, knocking Paul down, blinding him, sending Ananias to him, etc. - makes much better sense.
Yes, to a mind hostile to God's word. It makes sense to your human free will centered view of reality.
Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
Isa 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Man's view:
All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth, To everybody.
God's word:
Psalm 25:10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth, To such as keep His covenant and His testimonies.
 
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

The word "called" in Greek is "kletos" meaning "invitation." Not compelled, not coerced, not forced, invited.
Yeah, but only if you leave it by itself. Remember "hermenutics" Clearer passages help interpret less clear passages.

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated "aphorizo" me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace,
I already showed this before, but I will repeat for the sake of other readers.

"aphorizo" "to mark off by bounds" (apo, "from," horizo, "to determine"
Is used of the Divine action in setting men apart for the work of the gospel, Rom_1:1

Paul was separated to the gospel of God before he was born "determined." So when he was "invited" naturally he accepted.
No, I think the natural, straightforward, "default" statement of God's word is that Man possesses free agency,
You have to ignore too many passages to miss this.
Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

You have free agency, but only in one direction.

Gen 8:21 . . .although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; . . .
Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.
Remember what Paul says:
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

Free agency: doing good = zero -- doing evil = 100%

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
Jeremiah_13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil. (this is a rhetorical question. What do you think the expected answer is?)

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Yeah, I see free agency all over the Bible :ThumbBig
 
If God Loved all men without exception, Christ words in Jn 14:21,23 are meaningless which are:

Jn 14:21,23

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Again, if God loved all men without exception, that means that even though men do not Love and obey Christ can be assured of the Fathers Love, as indicated in Jn 3:16
 
Yes, God loves everybody; but no, not everybody loves God, and that's neither God's purpose nor His fault.
 
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