Bible Study Does God mind if idols of 'saints' are worshipped in church?

[Hidden In Him]

Well, I come from a Catholic background in my family so if I 'misrepresent' anything, I am fine with a correction. But I think the scriptures make clear, that there is a problem. Here is something they read in church today which points to it...

Idolaters Condemned​

1 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 3 “Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? 4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When any of the Israelites set up idols in their hearts and put a wicked stumbling block before their faces and then go to a prophet, I the Lord will answer them myself in keeping with their great idolatry. 5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.’
6 “Therefore say to the people of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!

I don't have much time or patience for debate anymore, Reddogs. I mostly just try to keep the peace so that others are able to engage in it peacefully.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, I come from a Catholic background in my family so if I 'misrepresent' anything, I am fine with a correction. But I think the scriptures make clear, that there is a problem. Here is something they read in church today which points to it...

Idolaters Condemned​

1 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 3 “Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? 4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When any of the Israelites set up idols in their hearts and put a wicked stumbling block before their faces and then go to a prophet, I the Lord will answer them myself in keeping with their great idolatry. 5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.’
6 “Therefore say to the people of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!

Which idols do you think Catholics worship?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, I come from a Catholic background in my family so if I 'misrepresent' anything, I am fine with a correction. But I think the scriptures make clear, that there is a problem. Here is something they read in church today which points to it...

Idolaters Condemned​

1 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 3 “Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? 4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When any of the Israelites set up idols in their hearts and put a wicked stumbling block before their faces and then go to a prophet, I the Lord will answer them myself in keeping with their great idolatry. 5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.’
6 “Therefore say to the people of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!

Could you explain what idolatry is?
What is an idol?

I used to teach religion kids that an idol is something you love more than God.
A car could be an idol.
A singer could be an idol...
a sport,
a thing - like jewelry.

And on and on.

So you think a person could love WHAT more than God?
A statue?

 

[reddogs]

Which idols do you think Catholics worship?

Well, just look which one the Pope kneels before... https://romancatholicbeliefs.org/roman-catholics-and-popes-worship-mary/

 

[reddogs]

Could you explain what idolatry is?
What is an idol?

I used to teach religion kids that an idol is something you love more than God.
A car could be an idol.
A singer could be an idol...
a sport,
a thing - like jewelry.

And on and on.

So you think a person could love WHAT more than God?
A statue?

When you put anything above God, it true you make it an idol. But to have a graven image above God is especially loathsome and is called an abomination..

Ezekiel 16:36
Thus saith the Lord God; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, just look which one the Pope kneels before... https://romancatholicbeliefs.org/roman-catholics-and-popes-worship-mary/

Those persons are not worshipping Mary.
They're venerating her.

If you don't understand the difference, I suggest you find out.

Is this something you copied and pasted?

Oh. And don't use Pope Francis as an example.
He definitely is not the picture of the CC.
Although it has nothing to do with Mary.
Maybe that's one of the FEW things he got straight.

 

[GodsGrace]

When you put anything above God, it true you make it an idol. But to have a graven image above God is especially loathsome and is called an abomination..

Ezekiel 16:36
Thus saith the Lord God; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

I don't think God will mind if we honor and love and venerate His mother.

I think He'll be more upset with those of us who do NOT.

There's a difference between a statue being an idol and a statue being a representation.

The golden calf was an idol.

A statue of Jesus is not an idol. It's a representation of our Lord.
Ditto for a statue of Mary or of any other saint some particular people might like.
I think praying to saints is rather odd since I doubt they could hear us since only God is omnipresent....
but if that's what the CC wants to teach - well, I know plenty of churches that teach worse.

 

[reddogs]

Those persons are not worshipping Mary.
They're venerating her.

If you don't understand the difference, I suggest you find out.

Is this something you copied and pasted?

Oh. And don't use Pope Francis as an example.
He definitely is not the picture of the CC.
Although it has nothing to do with Mary.
Maybe that's one of the FEW things he got straight.

When Latins go into the Cathedrals they 'worship' the idol of Mary, no 'venerating' there. Most others just show up for 'Easter' or a wedding and pass by the idols of 'saints'.

 

[GodsGrace]

When Latins go into the Cathedrals they 'worship' the idol of Mary, no 'venerating' there. Most others just show up for 'Easter' or a wedding and pass by the idols of 'saints'.

You might be right about Latinos.
This pope had a rather horrifying display of some south American idol right in the Vatican Gardens about 2 or 3 years ago.
Hacimama or whatever.

However, this is not what the CC teaches, I assure you.

 

[WIP]

You might be right about Latinos.
This pope had a rather horrifying display of some south American idol right in the Vatican Gardens about 2 or 3 years ago.
Hacimama or whatever.

However, this is not what the CC teaches, I assure you.

This sounds confusing for if the Pope declares it or in this case does it, his lead is to be followed. The Pope defines what is or is not acceptable Catholic teaching. That is the hierarchy.

 

[GodsGrace]

This sounds confusing for if the Pope declares it or in this case does it, his lead is to be followed. The Pope defines what is or is not acceptable Catholic teaching. That is the hierarchy.

This isn't correct.
The pope vows not to change church doctrine when taking office.

The church is permanent, the pope is not.
Many bishops are not following his lead.

 

[WIP]

This isn't correct.
The pope vows not to change church doctrine when taking office.

The church is permanent, the pope is not.
Many bishops are not following his lead.

Are you saying that the doctrine of the Catholic church today is the same as it was 2,000 years ago?

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you saying that the doctrine of the Catholic church today is the same as it was 2,000 years ago?

Doctrine means teaching.
A dogma cannot be changed.

A doctrine can be modified.

For instance, priests could be married until about 1,200 AD

Confession evolved from speaking it in a church setting to a private method.
I'm not absolutely sure the Early Church Fathers even taught auditory confession.
It's a bit confusing when you study it.

This Pope has made some changes and I just don't know how it'll play out once he's gone.

And any change in the doctrine of the church has to be by magisterium.
He seems to make changes all on his own...
This would be like the US Pres signing an Executive Order instead of going through congress.
The church, as a whole, is not too happy with this Pope.

 

[reddogs]

Those persons are not worshipping Mary.
They're venerating her.

If you don't understand the difference, I suggest you find out.

Is this something you copied and pasted?

Oh. And don't use Pope Francis as an example.
He definitely is not the picture of the CC.
Although it has nothing to do with Mary.
Maybe that's one of the FEW things he got straight.

I think this speaks for itself...
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

wor·ship
/ˈwərSHəp/
https://www.google.com/search?sca_e...2ahUKEwighdPJ0oyEAxVhSzABHdydBVgQ3eEDegQIZxAM
noun

1. the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
   "the worship of God"
   
   Similar:
   reverence revering worshipping veneration venerating adoration adoring -olatry devotion praise thanksgiving praising praying to glorification glorifying glory exaltation exalting extolment extolling homage respect honor honoring esteem dulia latria laudationmagnification
   
   
   

verb

1. show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites.
   "the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods"
   
   Similar: revere reverence venerate pay homage to honor adore praise pray to
   bow down before glorify exalt extol be devoted to dote on love hold dear cherish treasure admire esteem adulate
   
   

 

[GodsGrace]

I think this speaks for itself...
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

wor·ship
/ˈwərSHəp/
https://www.google.com/search?sca_e...2ahUKEwighdPJ0oyEAxVhSzABHdydBVgQ3eEDegQIZxAM
noun

1. the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
   "the worship of God"
   
   Similar:
   reverence revering worshipping veneration venerating adoration adoring -olatry devotion praise thanksgiving praising praying to glorification glorifying glory exaltation exalting extolment extolling homage respect honor honoring esteem dulia latria laudationmagnification
   
   

verb

1. show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites.
   "the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods"
   
   Similar: revere reverence venerate pay homage to honor adore praise pray to
   bow down before glorify exalt extol be devoted to dote on love hold dear cherish treasure admire esteem adulate
   

Word games.
Are you REALLY explaining to me the difference between worship and venerate?

Do you always use the bible for definitions when it come to faith matters?

Doesn't work very well.

If I explain to you the difference the CC teaches between WORSHIP and VENERATE, why would a dictionary have to be used?

Isn't it easier to just accept how the CC explains the difference?
Do you think they don't know the difference and worship both God and Mary?
You really believe Mary is on the same level as God in the CC?

Serious questions.
Depending on how you reply, this convo is pretty much over.

The CC teaches its doctrine...not you nor me.

 

[WIP]

Word games.
Are you REALLY explaining to me the difference between worship and venerate?

Do you always use the bible for definitions when it come to faith matters?

Doesn't work very well.

If I explain to you the difference the CC teaches between WORSHIP and VENERATE, why would a dictionary have to be used?

Isn't it easier to just accept how the CC explains the difference?
Do you think they don't know the difference and worship both God and Mary?
You really believe Mary is on the same level as God in the CC?

Serious questions.
Depending on how you reply, this convo is pretty much over.

The CC teaches its doctrine...not you nor me.

I know that the Catholic church claims not to teach worshipping Mary or saints. Okay, be that as it may, what they have been doing is creating some obvious confusion and I saw it first-hand myself when I was a member of the Catholic church and I still see it today in my neighbors' actions as well as relatives. I have seen people enter a church, approach the statue that is depicting Mary, kneeling before it, and kissing its feet. I have seen and know some that wear emblems on necklaces and at certain times kissing the emblem while praying to the one it supposedly represents asking him/her to pray for them or give them guidance or protect them. These are just a couple examples. In my mind, I see little to no difference myself but I'll give benefit of doubt and suggest that maybe the church needs to do a better job of teaching the difference between worshipping and venerating as it pertains to the Catholic church because it is obvious by members' actions that they do not separate.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know that the Catholic church claims not to teach worshipping Mary or saints. Okay, be that as it may, what they have been doing is creating some obvious confusion and I saw it first-hand myself when I was a member of the Catholic church and I still see it today in my neighbors' actions as well as relatives. I have seen people enter a church, approach the statue that is depicting Mary, kneeling before it, and kissing its feet. I have seen and know some that wear emblems on necklaces and at certain times kissing the emblem while praying to the one it supposedly represents asking him/her to pray for them or give them guidance or protect them. These are just a couple examples. In my mind, I see little to no difference myself but I'll give benefit of doubt and suggest that maybe the church needs to do a better job of teaching the difference between worshipping and venerating as it pertains to the Catholic church because it is obvious by members' actions that they do not separate.

I agree.
I believe the CC does a terrible job of teaching their congregations.
It knows it too....they just don't know what to do about it.
Big problem is that the parents of children don't even know their own faith....
and on it goes down the line.

I used to hear talk of limbo.
Limbo is not taught by the CC.
However, it never stopped the talk either!
This is a problem.

A friend told me the other day that unbaptized babies go to a special place but not in God's presence.
I asked her where it states this and she didn't know - of course.

If you speak to a priest he'll say that ONLY GOD is worshipped.
Mary is VENERATED.

Somewhere there's a disconnect - I agree.
But I don't see that disconnect disappearing any time soon.

What I do see is that no one goes to church anymore....the pews are almost empty and priests are complaining about this. Some blame Covid. Well, the church NEVER should have closed down.

Another problem is that priests refuse to teach from the pulpit at Sunday Mass.
It's not a school they say - it's Mass.

OK. So let's keep the population ignorant of their faith.
I should stop because this really bothers me a lot.

 

[WIP]

What I do see is that no one goes to church anymore....the pews are almost empty and priests are complaining about this. Some blame Covid. Well, the church NEVER should have closed down.

Which is also taught as a mortal sin. Or, maybe it's not anymore?

 

[WIP]

Another problem is that priests refuse to teach from the pulpit at Sunday Mass.
It's not a school they say - it's Mass.

This seems to be a bit of an about face. It wasn't too long ago that it was not common for laypeople in the Catholic church to own their own Bibles and that everything they did learn was to be taught by the church, ergo, priests. In my own upbringing, I don't remember ever seeing a Bible in our home and my parents were pretty devout Catholics.

 

[GodsGrace]

This seems to be a bit of an about face. It wasn't too long ago that it was not common for laypeople in the Catholic church to own their own Bibles and that everything they did learn was to be taught by the church, ergo, priests. In my own upbringing, I don't remember ever seeing a Bible in our home and my parents were pretty devout Catholics.

I think it's the same today.
Catholics tend to not use the bible.