Bible Study Does God mind if idols of 'saints' are worshipped in church?

[JLB]

Or any place for that matter, does the Bible say anything on this issue or is it silent, lets check scripture and see what it has...

Leviticus 19:4
Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

2 Kings 17:12
For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.

2 Chronicles 24:18
And they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served groves and idols: and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass.

Deuteronomy 29:17
And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Psalm 135:15
The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

Isaiah 2:8
Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

Habakkuk 2:18
What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

That seems pretty clear, so how can the Catholic Church bring idols before its people, how can they claim to follow God when they worship idols which He forbid, how can they justify it when the Bible is so clear........

It’s idolatry. Plain and simple.


But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8



JLB

 

[eddif]

Another point: When somebody kneels before a statue, Buddha for instance,
are they worshipping the statue or who it represents?

I've always been a little confused about this.

I think those that pray before a statue of Mary are using it as a representation.

The brazen snake on a pole ( in the wilderness started as a symbol ofb Jesus. When people began to worship the snake, a king destroyed the brazen serpent.

The Old Testament hides the truth in symbolism. The New Testament explains truth without the need of all the symbolism.
We do not need the symbolism now, but these things wer written that we might not repeat the errors of the Old Testament.

About all a redneck understands.
eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

Just because Jesus never mentioned any names in the other parables does not make the parable of the rich man and Lazarus a true story as we know even theologians don't always agree with each other.

It's pretty much apparent when a parable is a parable.
As I've stated and you agree above, theologians do not always agree with each other about some scripture.
When this happens, at least for me, it's difficult to take a firm stand unless a person is totally convinced.
I believe in telling the story in Luke 16 Jesus is telling us what to expect after death. Of course the story He's telling is BEFORE the resurrection when the gates of heaven were still closed.

Those that belonged in hell, were in hell.
Those that belonged in heaven were waiting in a comfortable place (Abraham's Bosson) for heaven to be opened to mankind.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I don't see what this proves.
We die once, and we are judged.
We are judged immediately.
I think you'd agree that the White Throne Judgement at the end of time if for the unsaved.
If anything, we will be judged for rewards, and not the state of our soul. (at the end time).
(Judgement Seat of Christ).

2 Timothy 4:8
8in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day;
Hebrews 6:10
10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints...

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

This is true. Jesus said this before the ascension and heaven was still closed.
Also, it's clear that it relates to a person having gone up to heaven, and then having come back down to teach what they learned there. This has never happened. Only Jesus could accomplish this.

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This is speaking about the resurrection of the dead when we receive our glorified bodies.

Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
From heaven we await our glorified body.

These are just three of many scriptures that state when we physically die we lay in the grave until the return of Christ and then the resurrection happens. The only thing that returns back to God when we die is the very breath He breathed into us making us a living souls.

Jesus nor the angels have never returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God,John 3:13. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory, John 5:28, 29,1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.​

If our SPIRIT return back to God....isn 't some part of us still alive?
Isn't the BREATH that God gave us, what makes us be alive/gives to us life?

Those who believe in Christ will have eternal life with the Father when Christ returns whether they are laying in their grave or alive at His coming.
1Corinthians 15:51-58 1Thessalonians 4:13-18

Of course this is true. Even if we sleep, at the resurrection it will be as in a moment of time having passed.
But this is not what our Christian faith teaches.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You used a verse that is used to prove our ongoing existence after death.
2 Cor 5:8 if we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord.

I believe I used that verse in this conversation.

vs. 1 is speaking about the tabernacle of God that is within us as we are the Temple of God, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17, and when we physically die we will have eternal life with Him in the New Jerusalem
vs. 2 we desire to be in our new home, the New Jerusalem, that will be ushered down from heaven at the end of days, Rev 21
vs. 3 we are clothed in Gods righteousness as we will not be found naked, Isaiah 61:10
vs. 4 We are the Temple of God, but yet we do have burdens as we still live in this fleshly body waiting for immortality when Christ returns, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
vs. 5 basic as we have Gods Spirit dwelling in us as we need to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, Galatians 5:16, 17
vs. 6 we are confident knowing that if we are walking in the flesh we are absent from God because flesh and Spirit can not mix, Galatians 5:17
vs. 7 we walk by faith, which is Christ Jesus as we seek those things from above and not the things of this world, Colossians 3:1-4
vs. 8 we are confident if we are walking in the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) we are no longer following the lust of the flesh, 1 John 2:16

Absent from the body and present with the Lord means that we are no longer in the flesh, but now walking in the Spirit having fellowship with God while still being here on earth.

We aren't absent from our body as we walk with the Lord here on earth.
We are IN our body.
Only our walk changes, but we take our body with us.

Also, I want to say that we either have a soul or we don't.
If we have a soul and a consciousness, and it cannot be found anywhere in our body,
then it must go on living after death.
Or death is final.

 

[reddogs]

Well, I tend to shy away from movie depictions of Catholic, Protestant, or any other denominational representation. I grew up in the Catholic church and still have many family and relatives that are members of the Catholic church and have attended services on occasion even recently and I have never experienced the members doing this or the church teaching its membership to worship statues.

I see the Pope on occasion and yes he isn't in front of a statue of Mary, but yet he does it. Need look below the surface or a service on Easter and see those who are a bit more earnest in the beliefs being given..

 

[GodsGrace]

The brazen snake on a pole ( in the wilderness started as a symbol ofb Jesus. When people began to worship the snake, a king destroyed the brazen serpent.

The Old Testament hides the truth in symbolism. The New Testament explains truth without the need of all the symbolism.
We do not need the symbolism now, but these things wer written that we might not repeat the errors of the Old Testament.

About all a redneck understands.
eddif

Good.

But I know for sure Catholics don't worship statues.
Some might,
BUT THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO.
So we'll leave that between them and God since HE is the judge and not us.

Some persons need the symbolism.
My granddaughter has statues of Mary and Jesus all over her room.
She has loved Jesus since she was about 3 years old and she also love the beautiful statues of Mary.
I don't see her worshipping any statue - but the living God.

I have some objects depicting the Sacred Family.
Am I worshipping those objects?
If you visited me in my home you'd call me an idol worshipper?

How BLAND to we want Christianity to be as Protestants?

I walk into a Protestant church and it could be anything.
Musical instruments on the "stage".
If anything, MAYBE a cross.

I've visited churches all over Europe and the honor that is given to God and the
time and money spend on them puts us to shame.
God created beauty.
Beauty is of God.

A beautiful statue of Jesus is wonderful to behold.
Ditto for Mary.
An example of what womanhood should be.

Let's stop with this idol business.

 

[GodsGrace]

I see the Pope on occasion and yes he isn't in front of a statue of Mary, but yet he does it. Need look below the surface or a service on Easter and see those who are a bit more earnest in the beliefs being given..

Mary is VENERATED in Catholicism.
And she should be.
She birthed the Savior and raised Him.
It's the MOTHER OF JESUS.

 

[for_his_glory]

It's pretty much apparent when a parable is a parable.
As I've stated and you agree above, theologians do not always agree with each other about some scripture.
When this happens, at least for me, it's difficult to take a firm stand unless a person is totally convinced.
I believe in telling the story in Luke 16 Jesus is telling us what to expect after death. Of course the story He's telling is BEFORE the resurrection when the gates of heaven were still closed.

Those that belonged in hell, were in hell.
Those that belonged in heaven were waiting in a comfortable place (Abraham's Bosson) for heaven to be opened to mankind.



I don't see what this proves.
We die once, and we are judged.
We are judged immediately.
I think you'd agree that the White Throne Judgement at the end of time if for the unsaved.
If anything, we will be judged for rewards, and not the state of our soul. (at the end time).
(Judgement Seat of Christ).

2 Timothy 4:8
8in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day;
Hebrews 6:10
10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints...


This is true. Jesus said this before the ascension and heaven was still closed.
Also, it's clear that it relates to a person having gone up to heaven, and then having come back down to teach what they learned there. This has never happened. Only Jesus could accomplish this.



This is speaking about the resurrection of the dead when we receive our glorified bodies.

Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
From heaven we await our glorified body.



If our SPIRIT return back to God....isn 't some part of us still alive?
Isn't the BREATH that God gave us, what makes us be alive/gives to us life?



Of course this is true. Even if we sleep, at the resurrection it will be as in a moment of time having passed.
But this is not what our Christian faith teaches.



You used a verse that is used to prove our ongoing existence after death.
2 Cor 5:8 if we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord.

I believe I used that verse in this conversation.


We aren't absent from our body as we walk with the Lord here on earth.
We are IN our body.
Only our walk changes, but we take our body with us.

Also, I want to say that we either have a soul or we don't.
If we have a soul and a consciousness, and it cannot be found anywhere in our body,
then it must go on living after death.
Or death is final.

There is way to much to discuss in your reply and we are actually getting off topic with this. If you would like to start a new topic on this please tag me into it as I would like to discuss this further if you want to.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is way to much to discuss in your reply and we are actually getting off topic with this. If you would like to start a new topic on this please tag me into it as I would like to discuss this further if you want to.

It's an interesting topic.
I know that some verses seem to agree with your belief and some seem to agree with mine.

I don't know how this could be resolved.
As you know, I tend to give heed to churches I've attended,,,,3, and they all 3 believe we remain conscious after death.

It makes sense to me.

 

[reddogs]

Mary is VENERATED in Catholicism.
And she should be.
She birthed the Savior and raised Him.
It's the MOTHER OF JESUS.

The Queen of Heaven, etc.. As I said, need to look below just the surface and see what it shows...

 

[WIP]

I don't think we need to take this discussion down the path of Mary's role in the Catholic church. There is discussion thread in the Catholicism forum already on this topic.

The question presented in this thread is, "Does God mind if idols of 'saints' are worshipped in church?"

To that question, I would say the answer is yes, He does mind. He said so here,

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."
Exodus 20:4-5 NKJV

The OP brought up the question with regard to the Catholic church. I think we need to be careful not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought. For when we start to point fingers, we bring judgement upon ourselves and I very much doubt any of us is without fault.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think we need to take this discussion down the path of Mary's role in the Catholic church. There is discussion thread in the Catholicism forum already on this topic.

The question presented in this thread is, "Does God mind if idols of 'saints' are worshipped in church?"

To that question, I would say the answer is yes, He does mind. He said so here,

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."
Exodus 20:4-5 NKJV

The OP brought up the question with regard to the Catholic church. I think we need to be careful not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought. For when we start to point fingers, we bring judgement upon ourselves and I very much doubt any of us is without fault.

Please see post 19.
I think Mary is bound to come up in a post about worshipping statues.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think we need to take this discussion down the path of Mary's role in the Catholic church. There is discussion thread in the Catholicism forum already on this topic.

The question presented in this thread is, "Does God mind if idols of 'saints' are worshipped in church?"

To that question, I would say the answer is yes, He does mind. He said so here,

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."
Exodus 20:4-5 NKJV

The OP brought up the question with regard to the Catholic church. I think we need to be careful not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought. For when we start to point fingers, we bring judgement upon ourselves and I very much doubt any of us is without fault.

I agree that idols of saints should not be worshipped.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Queen of Heaven, etc.. As I said, need to look below just the surface and see what it shows...

Yes, well, they go a bit too far.

 

[for_his_glory]

It's an interesting topic.
I know that some verses seem to agree with your belief and some seem to agree with mine.

I don't know how this could be resolved.
As you know, I tend to give heed to churches I've attended,,,,3, and they all 3 believe we remain conscious after death.

It makes sense to me.

Just be careful for that which makes sense to us by a majority rule teaching is not always true. If what one says or teaches does not line up with scripture then I will not believe it. We have to remember that the very breath of God breathed into us is what makes us a living soul. When we physically die that very breath goes back to God who gave it. Without breath there is no consciousness.

 

[eddif]

Rednecks must just be strange .
IMHO
Adam became a living soul. At creation Adam received the physical life we all have. Body with breath , carnal mind, will, and emotions.
That carnal breath leaves us at death.
In us today we understand that in us can be the spirit of Christ Jesus. That new Spirit enters as we are born again.
This newness of life :
Entered the Jewish saints in Abraham’s bosom folks in the Grave (when Jesus preached to them).

The newness of Spiritual new life entered us at the new burt (you must be born again).
Christ in us the hope of glory.

The Hope of eternal life is the breath of the gospel we preach. The Gosele has power to be preached by aid of the Holy Spirit.

All this is really beyond what my human mind really understands. The mind of Christ in us is the reality,

Our carnal breath leaves us at death. The white wedding garment ( I can not explain all this) the Jewish saints in the grave is spiritual.

Our new spiritual heart and mind is our hope / faith.

Missiissippi redneck through a glass darkly
eddif

 

[secretmessenger]

I think the whole protestant vs catholic argument is unnecessarily painful, we have to remember that regardless of the errors on both sides, Christ is the rock, our foundation, and our salvation.

I feel (being of a fundamental independent baptist background myself) that the protestants approach the issue with too much contempt and disdain, not taking into consideration that we are all bothers and sisters in Christ, while the catholics approach it with what seems to come off as a unwillingness to take what is said seriously, it being a challenge to their long held practices and beliefs.

The two principles I think we need to take hold of are:

1) the commands to love one another written all throughout the new testament - speak the truth but do it in love. Lovingly make your case why you think such and such is wrong and let the Spirit work, we will not persuade people nor is it our job to convict others that they may change, but it is the job of the Holy Spirit to take the seed, the argument we make in love, and cause it to grow if He sees fit to do so.

2) the teaching of paul in 1 corinthians chapter 8 - do not throw a stumbling block in front of others. If something one feels they are free to do violates another's conscience towards the worship of God, these things ought not be done or spoken of in front of others for the sake of the weaker brother, for if we sin against their conscience we are in effect sinning against Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think the whole protestant vs catholic argument is unnecessarily painful, we have to remember that regardless of the errors on both sides, Christ is the rock, our foundation, and our salvation.

I feel (being of a fundamental independent baptist background myself) that the protestants approach the issue with too much contempt and disdain, not taking into consideration that we are all bothers and sisters in Christ, while the catholics approach it with what seems to come off as a unwillingness to take what is said seriously, it being a challenge to their long held practices and beliefs.

The two principles I think we need to take hold of are:

1) the commands to love one another written all throughout the new testament - speak the truth but do it in love. Lovingly make your case why you think such and such is wrong and let the Spirit work, we will not persuade people nor is it our job to convict others that they may change, but it is the job of the Holy Spirit to take the seed, the argument we make in love, and cause it to grow if He sees fit to do so.

2) the teaching of paul in 1 corinthians chapter 8 - do not throw a stumbling block in front of others. If something one feels they are free to do violates another's conscience towards the worship of God, these things ought not be done or spoken of in front of others for the sake of the weaker brother, for if we sin against their conscience we are in effect sinning against Christ.

Hi Secretmessenger
Welcome to the Forum.

First of all, I'd like to agree with everything you've said above.
If you knew me better, you'd know that I believe there is good and bad on both sides.
Sometimes I try to speak to Protestants about Catholic doctrine and there is no acceptance even if what they believe is wrong.

Ditto for Catholics.
I'm stuck in the middle! Look where I live.

I'm not sure we're putting a stumbling block in anyone's way.
I think it would be nice if we understood each other.

The other thing I'd like to say is that you'll fare better if you reply to someone instead of just making a post to no one.
You'll get more readers that way, more interaction.
But it's up to you.

 

[secretmessenger]

Hi Secretmessenger
Welcome to the Forum.

First of all, I'd like to agree with everything you've said above.
If you knew me better, you'd know that I believe there is good and bad on both sides.
Sometimes I try to speak to Protestants about Catholic doctrine and there is no acceptance even if what they believe is wrong.

Ditto for Catholics.
I'm stuck in the middle! Look where I live.

I'm not sure we're putting a stumbling block in anyone's way.
I think it would be nice if we understood each other.

The other thing I'd like to say is that you'll fare better if you reply to someone instead of just making a post to no one.
You'll get more readers that way, more interaction.
But it's up to you.

I was under the impression that all such posts were directed at the OP, thanks for clarification

 

[GodsGrace]

I was under the impression that all such posts were directed at the OP, thanks for clarification

The QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS FORUM is as you describe.
All the other forums are for everyone, except for one that is only for Christians.

If you read the "preamble" at every Forum it'll give you good info.

Happy posting!

 

[reddogs]

Fine where it is, so long as Catholicism is properly represented and the thread doesn't completely devolve into blatant misrepresentation.

Your and WIP's posts are providing a good balance.

Well, I come from a Catholic background in my family so if I 'misrepresent' anything, I am fine with a correction. But I think the scriptures make clear, that there is a problem. Here is something they read in church today which points to it...

Idolaters Condemned​

1 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 3 “Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? 4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When any of the Israelites set up idols in their hearts and put a wicked stumbling block before their faces and then go to a prophet, I the Lord will answer them myself in keeping with their great idolatry. 5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.’
6 “Therefore say to the people of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!