Does God owe us...

[Jim Parker]

I started here

and got to here

and am still not clear.

Are you objecting to those who claim to know the individual, and/or corporate, identity of the elect;
or
are you objecting to the doctrine that God has elected some to salvation and some to wrath?

B: I'm objecting to the doctrine that God has elected some to salvation and some to wrath.

—I ask because I see Romans 11:25-32 as completed in Romans 11:33-36 as denying the former and confirming the latter; which prompts me to want to be clear on your interpretation.—

My interpretation is that in the Romans 11 passage, Paul is speaking specifically about Israel ONLY.
Rom 11:1a (RSV) I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!
God's covenant with Israel was an eternal covenant.
Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,
1000 generations?? - eternal?? Close enough.

Or am I just missing the whole point?

At this point, I'm not sure there IS a point.2

 

[Habak]

B: I'm objecting to the doctrine that God has elected some to salvation and some to wrath.


My interpretation is that in the Romans 11 passage, Paul is speaking specifically about Israel ONLY.
Rom 11:1a (RSV) I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!
God's covenant with Israel was an eternal covenant.
Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,
1000 generations?? - eternal?? Close enough.

At this point, I'm not sure there IS a point.2

And we know who Paul is talking about because He told us:
Rom. 2:28-29, ASV "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter."

If the thread has wandered, national Israel vs. spiritual Israel surely won't bring it

 

[Jim Parker]

And we know who Paul is talking about because He told us:
Rom. 2

The subject matter of Romans 2 is different from Romans 11 so, applying 2:28-29 is a bit of a stretch.

iakov the fool

 

[Habak]

The subject matter of Romans 2 is different from Romans 11 so, applying 2:28-29 is a bit of a stretch.

iakov the fool

I agree, but the principle is the same; and it was a whole lot shorter than tracing spiritual Israel from the 7000 (Rom. 11:4, ASV) through the breaking off, grafting in, and re-breaking, and re-grafting to show that spiritual Israel continued to be the focus all the way to "banish ungodliness from Jacob" (Rm. 11:26, ASV); when the objective was to attempt to let Hospes's thread have a chance to get back on track.

And I confess, as vital as the subject is to understanding God's economy, I've seen so many discussions of the type veer off into strange eschatology's that I try to avoid it.

 

[Jim Parker]

And I confess, as vital as the subject is to understanding God's economy, I've seen so many discussions of the type veer off into strange eschatology's that I try to avoid it.

Good "free will" choice. (The DEVil mad me do it!)

 

[smaller]

And we know who Paul is talking about because He told us:
Rom. 2:28-29, ASV "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter."
If the thread has wandered, national Israel vs. spiritual Israel surely won't bring it

What Calvin apparently did not see was that the people of Israel were and are Gods children. Whether they believed or not. Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Matt. 23:9.

This is "how" God sees them:

Numbers 23:21
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

Balaam, Balak and the elders of Moab and Midian found out they could find or conjure up NO CURSE of God, from God, upon the children of Israel, believer or unbeliever.

Did Calvin see as God Saw this matter? No. God Expressly Chose Israel as a people and a nation. There was no release or escape available to them from Gods Hands, in that call. Hebrews 12:25. Nor is there any escape for any person called into faith in Christ. Freewill or otherwise.

God made a covenant with the people of Israel, to take away their sin. That covenant cannot be broken.

Hebrews 8:
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

This is the same Covenant that we enter into, in Christ:

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This Living Unbreakable Covenant was seen by Ezekiel 37, when the dead bones of Israel came UP out of their graves, to LIFE. It is the same sight Paul deploys for us in Phil. 3:21.

Ezek 37:
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

 

[Habak]

What Calvin apparently did not see ...

Did Calvin see as God Saw this matter? ...

You'll have to argue both sides of this issue.
I don't know what Calvin said.

discussions of the type veer off into strange eschatology's

 

[Jim Parker]

God Expressly Chose Israel as a people and a nation. There was no release or escape available to them from Gods Hands, in that call. Hebrews 12:25. Nor is there any escape for any person called into faith in Christ. Freewill or otherwise.

God and Israel entered into a covenant together. In that covenant. it was Israel's part to keep the laws, statutes, regulations, etc. of the covenant and God's part to insure that they lived long and prospered in the land if they kept the covenant (Deu 4:40 and, yes, that is where Leonard Nimoy got it) and to drive them out of the land, enslave them to heathens, and let them die in exile if they did not keep the covenant ( Deu 28:15ff).
Living long in a blessed estate in the promised land is a shadow of eternal life.
The curses are a shadow of hell.
The point: Being God's chosen people did not mean that a Jew was saved because he was a Jew. It meant that he was saved if he kept the covenant. (As best he could, of course, confession and repentance were always in effect.)

Ro 2:6-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

There are two sides to the Old and New Covenants. In each of them, both parties have a part to play.

This Living Unbreakable Covenant was seen by Ezekiel 37,

The Lord also spoke through Ezekiel and said: (18:24) "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

Jesus also said concerning the resurrection foretold by Ezekiel: John 5:28-29 (NKJV)

… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

jus' sayin'

 

[Trichakra]

God love us.

 

[Jim Parker]

Are all people entitled to God giving them the opportunity to be saved from their sin?

All people are entitled to absolutely nothing from God.
God owes no one anything.
Everything that God provides, He provides out of love for his creation.

 

[OzSpen]

God and Israel entered into a covenant together. In that covenant. it was Israel's part to keep the laws, statutes, regulations, etc. of the covenant and God's part to insure that they lived long and prospered in the land if they kept the covenant (Deu 4:40 and, yes, that is where Leonard Nimoy got it) and to drive them out of the land, enslave them to heathens, and let them die in exile if they did not keep the covenant ( Deu 28:15ff).
Living long in a blessed estate in the promised land is a shadow of eternal life.
The curses are a shadow of hell.
The point: Being God's chosen people did not mean that a Jew was saved because he was a Jew. It meant that he was saved if he kept the covenant. (As best he could, of course, confession and repentance were always in effect.)

Ro 2:6-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

There are two sides to the Old and New Covenants. In each of them, both parties have a part to play.

The Lord also spoke through Ezekiel and said: (18:24) "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

Jesus also said concerning the resurrection foretold by Ezekiel: John 5:28-29 (NKJV)

… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

jus' sayin'

Jim,

I find your assessment here to be an excellent overview of the need for both sides of the covenant in OT and NT to keep their promises. There is a part for the human side to keep.

Oz

 

[Edward]

Entitled to salvation? No. With no disrespect to question or poster, I think that's a selfish and arrogant way to think. Perhaps even dangerous?

Owed is, we did something for an agreed upon fee and performed the task. This is not how it went down. While we were yet sinners, and the enemy of God, He sent His Son to die for us...that's mercy & grace, not that He owes us. We owe Him!

 

[OzSpen]

Entitled to salvation? No. With no disrespect to question or poster, I think that's a selfish and arrogant way to think. Perhaps even dangerous?

Owed is, we did something for an agreed upon fee and performed the task. This is not how it went down. While we were yet sinners, and the enemy of God, He sent His Son to die for us...that's mercy & grace, not that He owes us. We owe Him!

Did Jesus die for the whole human race? Is the Gospel made available to all? Can I honestly preach: 'Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved' (Acts 16:31 ESV)?

 

[smaller]

There are two sides to the Old and New Covenants. In each of them, both parties have a part to play.

The Lord also spoke through Ezekiel and said: (18:24) "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

Jesus also said concerning the resurrection foretold by Ezekiel: John 5:28-29 (NKJV)

… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

jus' sayin'

No flesh of any of mankind avoids the adverse judgment of God under the law. We all have evil present with us and sin dwelling in our flesh, just as Paul did. Romans 7:17-21. Whether it's apparent on the outside or not is entirely irrelevant. The law is for the lawless, 1 Tim. 1:9. Indwelling sin and evil present never was "lawful" and never will be. This essentially forces us into our needs for the Grace and Mercy of God in Christ. That need never departs from any of us, because of our inherent condition in the flesh, with evil present with us, in our conscience, which defiles everyone. Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Mark 5:28, Gal. 5:17, Hebrews 10:22.

YET, even in these facts God Expresses His Perfect Love in Christ, Loving ALL mankind regardless of our "internal" enemy status.

In all these things God DEMANDS to have His Mercy. And if we are "subjects" to very certain internal conditions that makes this need, none of us really have much to say about it. IF we "neglect" His Love, His Mercy, then that EVIL that is present within us can and will be AMPLIFIED by God to prove His Point.

Evil present within ALL mankind, saved or unsaved, works on autopilot, to "always" be against God in Christ. Against His Laws. Against His Love. Against His Mercy. Against His Forgiveness. Against His Word. Against faith in Christ.

Being a "believer" is to submit to His Facts on this matter, and to not let this internal condition of fact over run us, knowing that God is not mocked. And that Divine Retribution against evil present, it's works, it's ways, IN THE NOW, is always on the table of Gods Sovereignty.

The does God owe us anything is a very lame look at reality in His creation. All things are HIS, and created "solely" for His Pleasure, which He Himself "extracts" from His creation, whatever that may be or consist of.

God has "expressed" Himself both in creation and particularly in His Son.

None of His expressions in creation or in His Son, are without purposes or merits in His Eyes.

The only way we even exist, that creation itself exists, is because of Gods Eternal Mercy, tolerating patiently, until His Purposes with everything IN His creation, are fulfilled.

 

[Jim Parker]

God doesn't owe us, but He does love us.

yes!!!!!!

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,

I find your assessment here to be an excellent overview of the need for both sides of the covenant in OT and NT to keep their promises. There is a part for the human side to keep.

Oz

HI Oz!
I've been out of the loop for a while.
Moved from Vegas back to San Jose California.
Been packing - loading driving - unloading - unpacking and getting worn out.
My mom in law (90 yrs old) fell (not hurt badly) and I've been modifying the house to make it safer for her.
Haven't had time for much else.

jim