Does God owe us...

[Hospes]

...the offer of salvation? Are all people entitled to God giving them the opportunity to be saved from their sin?

It seems to me the objection Paul anticipates from his reader in Romans 9,"...“Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” (Romans 9:19 ESV) has it's root in the premise that we are entitled from God an opportunity to be saved and that God would be unjust to punish us for our sins unless we have the opportunity to reject Christ.

Another way of writing this is:

Our sins do not deserve God's wrath unless he gives us the opportunity to have them removed via the work of Christ on the Cross.​

If you think we are entitled as described, please explain how you reconcile Paul's response in light of your belief:

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (Romans 9:20-21 ESV)
​

Another verse that I think bears on this discussion:

Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid? (Romans 11:35 ESV)
​

Of course, if you think I am not seeing things correctly, I'd be glad to entertain any thoughts on how to see it differently.

In anticipation of one rabbit trail: I know Christians are to offer all people the Gospel so they have the opportunity to respond; that is not the question on the table.

[I have friend's wedding vow renewal/celebration to go to this weekend, so I anticipate I will not have much time to post. I anticipate posters to have all this figured out before I return. ]

 

[smaller]

In anticipation of one rabbit trail: I know Christians are to offer all people the Gospel so they have the opportunity to respond; that is not the question on the table.

I don't present the Gospel as an opportunity or an option. A Spear, straight into their heart without an option is the best way to "hook" them all. Give it a hard 180 degree twist to set the spear so they don't wiggle off when they DIVE.

 

[Malachi]

Are all people entitled to God giving them the opportunity to be saved from their sin?

There is no entitlement whatsoever. At the same time salvation is offered freely to ALL who will repent and believe.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Arminians do refer to the "free gift of salvation," so I don't think believing that salvation is (potentially) for everyone implies that God owes us anything.

 

[Hospes]

Interesting in the small response to this thread as I see entitlement as a pillar of many arguments regarding the character of God.

I believe it is an assumed sense of entitlement causing many to object to God:

• Assumed entitlement is there when an atheist claims the Christian God must be horrific because He devoted a city to destruction
• Assumed entitlement is there when a Christian argues that only a horrific God would unconditionally chooses to save some, but not all. (Argument for Universalism)
• Assumed entitlement is there when a Christian argues that only a horrific God would unconditionally chooses to save some, but destine others to be "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22 ESV)

If we truly believe everyone deserves God's wrath, it follows we would rejoice He mercifully shows undeserved kindness and saves any of us. It does not follow we would think God as unjust in saving only some while giving others the wrath they deserve, e.g. Pharaoh of Romans 9.

 

[smaller]

Interesting in the small response to this thread as I see entitlement as a pillar of many arguments regarding the character of God.

I believe it is an assumed sense of entitlement causing many to object to God:

• Assumed entitlement is there when an atheist claims the Christian God must be horrific because He devoted a city to destruction
• Assumed entitlement is there when a Christian argues that only a horrific God would unconditionally chooses to save some, but not all. (Argument for Universalism)
• Assumed entitlement is there when a Christian argues that only a horrific God would unconditionally chooses to save some, but destine others to be "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22 ESV)

If we truly believe everyone deserves God's wrath, it follows we would rejoice He mercifully shows undeserved kindness and saves any of us. It does not follow we would think God as unjust in saving only some while giving others the wrath they deserve, e.g. Pharaoh of Romans 9.

I don't buy into the determinist structure you propose above Hospes. Tried it out a couple decades plus back and it couldn't hold scriptural water for me. Even though I wanted to believe it after leaving the 'charismatic' freewill camp and was seriously examining alternatives after being convinced of some determinist positions.

The kicker for me, where determinism failed, was Romans 11:25-32. Determinism as it is commonly proposed can NOT legitimately get past this obstacle, because it is unfit to do so. IN that section we'll find a challenge. That 'enemies' of the Gospel as it pertains to unbelieving Israel shall ALL be saved. And those were [present tense] enemies, "are" enemies of the Gospel, that Paul was speaking of. And Paul explains to us, clearly, WHY they are enemies of the Gospel in Romans 11:8. How did that come about? Because it was GOD HIMSELF who placed upon them a spirit of slumber. There was the person of unbelieving Israel AND the spirit of slumber put upon them so they could not see or believe, no matter what. And God did this PRECISELY in behalf of us as Gentiles.

So, how are we to treat these blinded enemy unbelievers of the Gospel? Paul directs us to SHOW THEM MERCY, as WE have received. Why? Because they shall be saved.

When anyone sees this, they will see as Paul proposed. There is the person. And there is the "spirit of slumber" that is put upon them that is NOT THEM. This same sight is demonstrated by Paul in receiving his commands from Jesus in Acts 26:18, shown again in 2 Cor. 4:4, and even upon our own blinded selves in Eph. 2:2.

In seeing this then what should we see with ALL people? We should see them, God Desiring to SAVE them all, and we should see the CAPTIVE upon their minds as a "different operating entity."

It is our quest to SPEAR one of those parties, and CONDEMN the other with the Light of Gods Words in Christ.

That's how this present system is set up.

It is a PRISON HOUSE. With CAPTIVES, a CAPTOR and Our Savior, Jesus Christ.

What did Jesus come to do? To release the CAPTIVES. Why would we not go and do likewise? If we can not SPEAR a fish for Jesus we just have to learn to throw the spear better, to hit the targets. And this we all CAN DO. So, I could not join the "God only blesses the elect" club. Doesn't work for me.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

God doesn't owe us anything.
He could step on us like ants and we would never know the difference.
Ask Jesus into your heart today while he's still in the mood.

 

[for_his_glory]

God gave His only begotten Son that paid a debt He did not owe as we owe Him a debt we could never pay. Grace is a free gift and unmerited favor of God even though we do not deserve it. God owes us nothing and at one time it repented God that He even created man, Genesis 6:6, but did find favor in that of Noah. Faith comes by hearing the word of God as it has been preached to all the world, but it's up to man to accept it or reject it.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Jim Parker]

I don't buy into the determinist structure you propose above Hospes. Tried it out a couple decades plus back and it couldn't hold scriptural water for me. Even though I wanted to believe it after leaving the 'charismatic' freewill camp and was seriously examining alternatives after being convinced of some determinist positions.
.

Please define what you mean by "determinism."

 

[smaller]

Please define what you mean by "determinism."

It means that God Always Has The Final Say on "all things." [Deleted sarcasm. WIP]

 

[Jim Parker]

It means that God Always Has The Final Say on "all things." Clear enough?

Crystal.
So you don't believe that God always has the final say in all things.
Interesting.

 

[Sinthesis]

God doesn't owe us, but He does love us.

 

[Jim Parker]

God doesn't owe us, but He does love us.

That's better than being owed.

 

[Hospes]

Smaller, I am not sure I understand what you are writing, so I took a few of your statements and would like to get clarification:

I don't buy into the determinist structure you propose above Hospes.

I think you may define "determinist" as what I would mean by saying "God is sovereign over ALL things." Is this a fair statement of your definition?

Because they shall be saved.

By this summary statement, are you proposing that eventually all people - individually and collectively - shall be saved by God? (I realize I pulled this out of your other content and realize it may be an incomplete/incorrect summary of you position.)

So, I could not join the "God only blesses the elect" club.

I am not sure what you're meaning here. I can tell you I believe God greatly blesses the non-elect with innumerable common graces. So am I in the "club"?

 

[smaller]

I think you may define "determinist" as what I would mean by saying "God is sovereign over ALL things." Is this a fair statement of your definition?

I've seen and said no differently. What I may object to is variations on how determinists may see the matters. Not that I'd say they OR freewiller believers aren't saved. Some determinists are a bit over the top on this, for example claiming freewillers aren't saved. I find no basis to justify that claim.

By this summary statement, are you proposing that eventually all people - individually and collectively - shall be saved by God? (I realize I pulled this out of your other content and realize it may be an incomplete/incorrect summary of you position.)

I gave/give a specific example as it pertained/pertains to unbelieving Israel in Romans 11:8 and Romans 11:25-31.

There are well respected theologians that (imho rightfully) see that Gods Overwhelming Grace for all people can not be ruled out as a possibility in theological equations, and I accept that sight as a more legitimate position of Divine Sovereignty.

I am not sure what you're meaning here. I can tell you I believe God greatly blesses the non-elect with innumerable common graces. So am I in the "club"?

I am as familiar as I want to be with insufficient (aka common) grace in some camps of determinism. Romans 11 mentioned above poses some dilemma's to that claim as it pertains to them ALL being saved. And I think it blows freewill completely out of the water.

 

[Habak]

I started here

I don't buy into the determinist structure you propose above Hospes. Tried it out a couple decades plus back and it couldn't hold scriptural water for me. Even though I wanted to believe it after leaving the 'charismatic' freewill camp and was seriously examining alternatives after being convinced of some determinist positions.

The kicker for me, where determinism failed, was Romans 11:25-32. Determinism as it is commonly proposed can NOT legitimately get past this obstacle, because it is unfit to do so. IN that section we'll find a challenge. That 'enemies' of the Gospel as it pertains to unbelieving Israel shall ALL be saved. And those were [present tense] enemies, "are" enemies of the Gospel, that Paul was speaking of. And Paul explains to us, clearly, WHY they are enemies of the Gospel in Romans 11:8. How did that come about? Because it was GOD HIMSELF who placed upon them a spirit of slumber. There was the person of unbelieving Israel AND the spirit of slumber put upon them so they could not see or believe, no matter what. And God did this PRECISELY in behalf of us as Gentiles.

So, how are we to treat these blinded enemy unbelievers of the Gospel? Paul directs us to SHOW THEM MERCY, as WE have received. Why? Because they shall be saved.

When anyone sees this, they will see as Paul proposed. There is the person. And there is the "spirit of slumber" that is put upon them that is NOT THEM. This same sight is demonstrated by Paul in receiving his commands from Jesus in Acts 26:18, shown again in 2 Cor. 4:4, and even upon our own blinded selves in Eph. 2:2.

In seeing this then what should we see with ALL people? We should see them, God Desiring to SAVE them all, and we should see the CAPTIVE upon their minds as a "different operating entity."

It is our quest to SPEAR one of those parties, and CONDEMN the other with the Light of Gods Words in Christ.

That's how this present system is set up.

It is a PRISON HOUSE. With CAPTIVES, a CAPTOR and Our Savior, Jesus Christ.

What did Jesus come to do? To release the CAPTIVES. Why would we not go and do likewise? If we can not SPEAR a fish for Jesus we just have to learn to throw the spear better, to hit the targets. And this we all CAN DO. So, I could not join the "God only blesses the elect" club. Doesn't work for me.

and got to here

I've seen and said no differently. What I may object to is variations on how determinists may see the matters. Not that I'd say they OR freewiller believers aren't saved. Some determinists are a bit over the top on this, for example claiming freewillers aren't saved. I find no basis to justify that claim.


I gave/give a specific example as it pertained/pertains to unbelieving Israel in Romans 11:8 and Romans 11:25-31.

There are well respected theologians that (imho rightfully) see that Gods Overwhelming Grace for all people can not be ruled out as a possibility in theological equations, and I accept that sight as a more legitimate position of Divine Sovereignty.


I am as familiar as I want to be with insufficient (aka common) grace in some camps of determinism. Romans 11 mentioned above poses some dilemma's to that claim as it pertains to them ALL being saved. And I think it blows freewill completely out of the water.

and am still not clear.

Are you objecting to those who claim to know the individual, and/or corporate, identity of the elect;
or
are you objecting to the doctrine that God has elected some to salvation and some to wrath?

—I ask because I see Romans 11:25-32 as completed in Romans 11:33-36 as denying the former and confirming the latter; which prompts me to want to be clear on your interpretation.—

Or am I just missing the whole point?

 

[smaller]

—I ask because I see Romans 11:25-32 as completed in Romans 11:33-36 as denying the former and confirming the latter; which prompts me to want to be clear on your interpretation.—

Or am I just missing the whole point?

Probably. Romans 11:25-31 shows ALL of Israel, even enemies, present tense (are enemies) when Paul penned those words, saved for the sake of their fathers. There is no "cut off" point nor has that been completed. That's why I can't buy into Calvinism OR freewill for that matter. It's much more interesting as Romans 11 shows us.

 

[Habak]

Probably. Romans 11:25-31 shows ALL of Israel, even enemies, present tense (are enemies) when Paul penned those words, saved for the sake of their fathers. There is no "cut off" point nor has that been completed. That's why I can't buy into Calvinism OR freewill for that matter. It's much more interesting as Romans 11 shows us.

I take it that you see no application here for Rm. 2:28, John 8:39, (NASB), etc.

 

[smaller]

I take it that you see no application here for Rm. 2:28, John 8:39, (NASB), etc.

I think Romans 11:8 exactly sums up their status. As does Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 3:14 and 2 Cor. 4:4.

They had God enforced spiritual blindness by another entity that was put upon them so they couldn't see, hear or believe. Yet they will ALL be saved on behalf of their fathers.

And this imposition was put upon them in behalf of US. Romans 11:25 defines this as a mystery. It's apparently a tough mystery to perceive. The standard theology positions don't handle this section very well from what I've seen.

 

[Habak]

I think Romans 11:8 exactly sums up their status. As does Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 3:14 and 2 Cor. 4:4.

They had God enforced spiritual blindness by another entity that was put upon them so they couldn't see, hear or believe. Yet they will ALL be saved on behalf of their fathers.

And this imposition was put upon them in behalf of US. Romans 11:25 defines this as a mystery. It's apparently a tough mystery to perceive. The standard theology positions don't handle this section very well from what I've seen.

Thank You for helping me see your line of thinking, and I think I do. I don't see accepting it for several reasons, but my spirit tells me that airing those at this time is not beneficial. God Bless