Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

No you said we are only declared righteous? Not really righteous ???

Because God has forgiven my sin, and continues to forgive my sin (as long as I keep believing) there is no trace of sin guilt on my record for someone to be able to make the accusation that I am somehow unrighteous:

31If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us. Romans 8:31-34

See, Catholics are still waiting for their declaration of righteousness, busy doing all the works and rituals they have been told they must do until the very end in order to be made righteous at the return of Christ. We Protestants understand what the Bible actually says, and so we know that we are in fact the righteousness of God, now.

Not really righteous ???

In practical terms, my life of righteousness is an ever increasing harvest:

18Peacemakers who sow in peace reap the fruit of righteousness.
James 3:18

This harvest of righteousness does not MAKE me righteous, it SHOWS me to have already been made the righteousness of God in Christ by faith:

18Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
James 2:18

 

[Hopeful]

How does water do that?

God, in His mercy, has allowed us to be "in Christ" at Jesus' death and burial, and ultimately His resurrection, by our "immersion" into Him and them. (Rom 6:3-7)
It allows us the death of our old man of sin, and our being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
There is no sin in this new life.
Sin was part of the old life.

 

[Hopeful]

It can be very costly to love as God loves. And it takes time to grow up into the maturity of loving others as God loves.

It can be costly.
Probably, in fact.
But thankfully we start from the position of being reborn of God's seed, which cannot bear the devil's fruit. (1 John 3:9)

 

[DiscipleDave]

Amen.
How long have you been a non-sinner?

Non-sinner? Don't think there is such a thing.

What does the verse say?

Jas 3:2 For in many things we offend all (thereby sinning because of the offending). If any man offend not in word (Obeys the Word of God), the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body (Not obey wicked desires of their flesh).

Know you not there are three different kinds of sin?
1) Sins unto Death
2) Sins NOT unto Death
3) Sins not forgiven unto living humans.

Sins unto Death are those that are knowingly and willingly committed, These are sins that i no longer do. If a person freely chooses to do something that they know is against God, is sinful, but chooses to do it anyways, that is a Sin unto Death.

Sins not unto Death are those that are NOT knowingly and willingly committed. Examples would be hitting your thumb with a hammer and cursing, You did not plan to curse, you did not premeditate to curse, it just happened. Or if you sit down at a table with some strangers while you devour a hamburger, only to realize they were all looking at you with offence because they were all vegetarians sitting at that table. You did not knowingly or intentionally do that evil thing in front of them, but you did it nonetheless. Or if you tell someone you will be there at 4pm, and you show up at 5pm, you indeed lied by not showing up when you told them you would. But you did not lie on purpose, and you had every intention to be there at 4pm. Or if i am at some event and look up and see some naked person running across the field, and even though i would immediately turn away from looking, i lusted for a split second. (side note, if you choose to continue to look and lust when you know you should not continue to do so, then it becomes a sin unto Death, because you knowingly and willingly choose to continue to look when you know full well you should not do so) These are sins that are NOT knowingly and willingly committed, these are sins that are NOT unto death.

(This is my opinion, and not from God) i don't believe anyone can live without ever sinning, unless they lived on a deserted island ALONE. Not saying it is impossible, because all things are possible with God, only saying it is not very likely a person doesn't sin EVER, That is to say Sins unto Death AND Sins Not unto Death.


What i teach against is all sins that are knowingly and willingly committed, these are sins that bring DEATH upon you, these are the sins i don't do. Watch my videos if you Truly desire to get sin out of your life. Or you can choose to remain in your sins, all the while thinking you are Heaven bound, only to be weeping and gnashing your teeth one day when you are NOT taken up with Him. And it will not be God's Fault either, because he has sent His prophet to show you the Way, how to find that narrow and difficult path that only a very FEW will find. And if your not looking for that difficult path, you will NEVER find it.

 

[DiscipleDave]

10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean. John 13:10

This happens once, when Jesus cleanseth you the very moment you Accept the Free Gift of Salvation, He does not, nor every has cleanseth a person DAILY. Here is how this generation reads that verse though:

Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is always clean every whit forever: and ye are always clean forever, but not all.

This thinking altogether changes the Word of God to fit into their own doctrines, believing it is not possible to get unclean.

The growing, maturing Christian who stumbles along the way doesn't lose his salvation. They remain clean and only need to clean up their walk.

Anybody that accepts the free Gift of Salvation, starts the RACE of Salvation, made a video about that too. Nobody is Saved or loses their Salvation, until the Day when Christ Returns and opens up the Book of Life, and if on THAT DAY, your name is written in the Book of Life, it is ONLY on THAT DAY will you be SAVED. On the otherhand, if ON THAT DAY Jesus opens up the Book of Life and your name has been blotted out of it, it is ONLY on THAT DAY are you NOT SAVED, NOT Raptured.

Anyone can claim TODAY they are Saved because they have accepted the free Gift of Salvation and have Started the Race of Salvation. Just because they claim they are Saved today, does not mean they will be SAVED on the Day of Judgment.

Any person who has believed in Jesus Christ and has accepted Him as their Savior and Lord, has Gotten SAVED. And Every person who has done this, will be judged the very Day Jesus comes for His Saints, separating the Sheep and the Goats. Sheep Christians are those who are walking in the light like Jesus Did, and OBEY the Word of God. Goat Christians are they that walk in their own selfishness, living in sins, which do NOT obey the Word of God.

So then BOTH Sheep and Goats are Christians. Now whether you are Sheep today and a goat tomorrow is another story. Any Goat can Truly repent of their sinning, and be forgiven and are now walking as sheep Christians. That does not mean they can't at a later date, return to being a Goat Christian. The DAY Jesus returns. Sheep Christians will be Raptured up to Him, Goat Christians will NOT be Raptured up with Him.

The Question then is what are you walking like TODAY. If a Goat, Change. If a Sheep, then continue being such.

The person who returns to unbelief is the person who has dirtied his whole self again. That's another thing altogether.

i am not talking about people who return to unbelief. i am specifically talking about those who claim to be True Christians who live in a dirty state.

Mat_7:17-18 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

A Good Tree has been cleansed by Jesus, and they remain a Good Tree. Good Tree's do NOT produce sinful deeds. These only produce Good deeds. So then if a person who GETS SAVED, they on that very day become a GOOD TREE, However if they freely choose to produce wicked deeds (fruits) they are no longer a Good Tree, but a bad one. Does that mean they can't return to being a Good Tree? Heavens no, as long as you draw breath you can choose to either be a Good Tree producing only Good deeds or you can choose to do the deeds of a bad tree, all the while claiming with your mouth your a good tree. As i said previously, you can choose to be a Sheep or a Goat. A Good Tree or a Bad Tree. A New Man or the Old Man.

Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth (from now on) we should not serve (obey) sin.

Eph_4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Col_3:9-10 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man WITH HIS DEEDS; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

When a person accept Jesus as their Savior and Lord they become a NEW MAN. If they AFTER that day, begin to do the deeds of the OLD man, they have not put off them did they, they are still doing the deeds of the Old Man.

Any New man in Christ, which continues to live in the deeds of the old man, they are NOT a new man in Christ, but are of the old man.

Rom_6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin (old man) unto death, or of obedience (new man) unto righteousness?

If you obey the deeds of the old man, you are NOT a New man in Christ, but are still the old man, only claiming to be a new one.

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said:
So if you choose to do something that is NOT righteous, you are not of God.

Then no one is of God.

What sin do you convict me of, or think that i am living in? i do all things to please Jesus Christ, so if you think or believe that i am doing something that is unrighteous, then by all means, reveal the Scripture to me that shows i am doing that which is unrighteous.

Know you not that with every single temptation that comes upon a person, that Jesus makes sure that it is NOT so Strong that you can't handle it, and with every single temptation Jesus has a path out of it for you? Are you suggesting that it is NOT possible for a person to always choose that path out of it? NOT possible to ALWAYS keep your mind and thoughts on Jesus Christ?

1Co_10:13 There hath NO temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able (to handle); but will with the temptation also make a way to escape (path out of it), that ye may be able to bear it (NOT DO IT).

The problem with this generation, they do not desire to seek that path out of it, they would much rather just commit the sin repeatedly, repent of it every single time, and continued to think their soul is right with God.

I think the fundamental problem with the sinless perfection theology is the lack of insight into the inner sins of the heart. It's basically the theology of the Pharisees. They were clean on the outside, and quite proud of it, but dirty on the inside and didn't know it. Theirs was the righteousness of law, not the righteousness of God.

The fundamental problem with sinless perfection doctrine in this generation, is because they don't believe the Word of God and what it plainly teaches.

Did not Jesus Himself told a woman to "Go and Sin no more" Is that not a sinless doctrine He just taught? OH wait, this generation has explained that verse away, by saying "Jesus really didn't mean that, what He meant was that she was to no longer commit adultery" Altogether NOT believing His Words to suit their own doctrines. So then i ask these same people this "And what sin did the man commit, that he was maimed for 38 years, and Jesus told him also to 'Go and Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you' Tell me, how do you explain away what Jesus said there?" Usually get nothing but crickets, because they can't do so.

Made a one minute Short video about this too:

 

[Hopeful]

Non-sinner? Don't think there is such a thing.

There are those reborn of God's seed that cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil. (1 John 3:9)

What does the verse say?
Jas 3:2 For in many things we offend all (thereby sinning because of the offending). If any man offend not in word (Obeys the Word of God), the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body (Not obey wicked desires of their flesh).

As the context of James 3 is the dissemination of both salty, bad, doctrine and good. right. doctrine, James' target is those bringing forth the bad doctrine.
It is interesting that you included the part of verse 2 about the perfect man.

Know you not there are three different kinds of sin?
1) Sins unto Death
2) Sins NOT unto Death
3) Sins not forgiven unto living humans.

Yes, I know of them.
Those reborn of God's seed cannot commit any of them. (1 John 3:9)

Sins unto Death are those that are knowingly and willingly committed, These are sins that i no longer do. If a person freely chooses to do something that they know is against God, is sinful, but chooses to do it anyways, that is a Sin unto Death.

Any sin not repented of, permanently, is a sin unto death.

Sins not unto Death are those that are NOT knowingly and willingly committed. Examples would be hitting your thumb with a hammer and cursing, You did not plan to curse, you did not premeditate to curse, it just happened.

What happened to your new, divine, nature?

Or if you sit down at a table with some strangers while you devour a hamburger, only to realize they were all looking at you with offence because they were all vegetarians sitting at that table. You did not knowingly or intentionally do that evil thing in front of them, but you did it nonetheless. Or if you tell someone you will be there at 4pm, and you show up at 5pm, you indeed lied by not showing up when you told them you would. But you did not lie on purpose, and you had every intention to be there at 4pm. Or if i am at some event and look up and see some naked person running across the field, and even though i would immediately turn away from looking, i lusted for a split second. (side note, if you choose to continue to look and lust when you know you should not continue to do so, then it becomes a sin unto Death, because you knowingly and willingly choose to continue to look when you know full well you should not do so) These are sins that are NOT knowingly and willingly committed, these are sins that are NOT unto death.

All sin is intentional, as James 1:14-15 makes clear.

(This is my opinion, and not from God) i don't believe anyone can live without ever sinning, unless they lived on a deserted island ALONE. Not saying it is impossible, because all things are possible with God, only saying it is not very likely a person doesn't sin EVER, That is to say Sins unto Death AND Sins Not unto Death.

Just as you wrote...all things are possible with God.

Why would Jesus die for us if we were just going to return that which He freed us from?
Conversion to Judaism could have produced that kind of man.
Sin-repent; sin-repent; sin-repent; until dying.
Jesus broke that cycle by allowing us to be reborn of God's seed.

What i teach against is all sins that are knowingly and willingly committed, these are sins that bring DEATH upon you, these are the sins i don't do. Watch my videos if you Truly desire to get sin out of your life. Or you can choose to remain in your sins, all the while thinking you are Heaven bound, only to be weeping and gnashing your teeth one day when you are NOT taken up with Him. And it will not be God's Fault either, because he has sent His prophet to show you the Way, how to find that narrow and difficult path that only a very FEW will find. And if your not looking for that difficult path, you will NEVER find it.

You had just written "Non-sinner? Don't think there is such a thing."
How then are you going to teach me how to get sin out of my life?

 

[DiscipleDave]

No, the person who loves is showing he is ALREADY righteous in Christ/born again.

DiscipleDave said:
So then Righteousness is granted to a person that OBEYS Jesus, namely to Love One Another as He COMMANDED us to do.

That's how and why he is acting righteously—because he has the righteousness of God already in him to produce the obedience of the righteous that he couldn't produce when didn't have the righteousness of God in him.

If Righteousness automatically came after accepting Jesus in yourself, why would Jesus have a need to COMMAND us to Love One Another? If because Jesus lives in us, we would automatically be loving one another (doing righteousness) then why does He COMMAND us to do it? He COMMANDS us to love one Another, because that is something we CHOOSE to do, NOT something that comes automatically because Jesus is in us.

because he has the righteousness of God already in him to produce the obedience

God in us, does not PRODUCE obedience. That is something we are told to do. We are told to obey, not because it is automatic or that He produces it in us, but because we CHOOSE to do it. You do error thinking the Righteousness of God in us, is what produces OBEDIENCE. The Righteousness of God, is what cleansed us the day we GOT SAVED, it does not, nor ever will cause you to be obedient. If that were the case, then every single person who accepted Jesus would not ever commit a sin ever again, because God in them, would only be producing righteousness.
Not to mention, that belief contradicts the Word of God. Which plainly teaches us over and over again, those who DO righteousness are Righteous.

God told me several times in different conversations this:

If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures, then what you believe is WRONG.

satan can't make us do anything, he can only tempt us. God likewise will not MAKE us do anything, even obedience. We choose to either obey God or obey satan. God's righteousness does not interfere with our ability to choose to do that which is right or that which is wrong. Those who think it is God Righteousness in them that causes them to be obedient, are probably in no way obedient, and are yet still living in their sins, waiting for God to produce obedience in them. They will be waiting until they no longer breath. God does not produce obedience, that is something we are commanded to do, once God has cleansed us by His rightousness.

14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers.
1 John 3:14

1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we (CHOOSE to) love the brethren. He that (CHOOSES to) loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever (CHOOSES to) hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Loving our Brethren is something we CHOOSE to do, it is NOT something that is produced in us, but is something we freely CHOOSE to do. Those who CHOOSE to obey the Word of God and Love their brethren are exhibiting the Righteousness of God, because that is also what our Lord Chose to do also.

The 'passing from death to life' comes first. Then the obedience commensurate with that life that is now in that person.

And they choose to obey, it is not something that i produced by God in a person.

We get born again and made righteous to then do works of righteousness.

Truth and is what i teach as well, When a person gets Saved, they are then to walk in the light like Jesus did, they are then to obey the Word of God and what it tell us to do. Once we are Born again (Saved) We are then to CHOOSE to maintain Good Works of Righteousness.

We do not do works of righteousness to become righteous. That is the theology of the Pharisees.

That is True, and is NOT what i teach. We are made Righteous by Jesus Christ the very Day we Get Saved and He cleanseth us from all past sins. We do not obey the Word of God to be Righteous, We obey the Word of God because that is what we are COMMANDED to do, and in doing that which we are commanded to do, we CHOOSE to live in Righteousness.

i don't do Good Works, to become Righteous. i do Good Works, because that is what i am plainly COMMANDED to do by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. i don't OBEY the Word of God to gain Righteousness, i OBEY the Word of God because it pleases Him who i serve, and that is Jesus Christ. i do all things to please Him, i do not do all things to be Righteous. i don't help the needy, feed the poor to be Righteous, i do those things because i am COMMANDED by God to Love One Another. i am not obedient to try to Gain Righteousness, i CHOOSE to be obedient, because it is the RIGHT thing to do. The thing that pleases God.

1Pe_3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Those who CHOOSE to do that which is Unrighteous (sinning) their prayers are not being answered, But Who does God hear, those who are Righteous. That is to say, those who are Doing ONLY Righteousness.

1Jn_3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Tell me therefore, those who do UNRIGHTEOUSNESS are they still Righteous? This verse is PLAIN, this verse is CLEAR. Those who DO Righteousness are who are Righteous. So those who do unrighteousness, ARE NOT! So you can go ahead and claim that you have the Righteousness of Jesus Christ, that does not in any way whatsoever NEGATE, or make void other verses in Scriptures.
If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures, then what you believe is WRONG.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Those reborn of God's seed cannot commit any of them. (1 John 3:9)

Those reborn of God's seed cannot commit adultery. This is Truth. Does that mean it is not possible that they can commit adultery? No.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

This is specifically talking about those who abide in Jesus Christ will NOT CHOOSE to commit sin. These verses are not talking about or referring to Sins that are NOT unto death. But are specifically talking about Willful sins.


1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that (knowingly and willingly) committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil (knowingly and willingly) sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (So people don't CHOOSE to commit sins any longer)
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (Willful) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness (Willfully CHOOSE to do that which is NOT Righteous) is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You do error in thinking these verses apply to all three types of sinning. They don't, these verses apply to the Sins unto death. Those that are knowingly and willingly committed. These verses do NOT apply to the Type of Sin that is NOT forgiven unto men, blaspheme of the Holy Ghost, nor are these verses referring to sins that are NOT knowingly and willingly committed.

Tell me, if i being reborn of God's seed, type in a search engine, "tomato plants" And a porn picture pops up on my screen, and i viewed the nakedness of people in abominable deeds with each other, am i no longer Born of God because of that sin? You do error thinking 1 John is referring to ALL Types of sin, it is NOT.

 

[DiscipleDave]

What happened to your new, divine, nature?

We are NOT God. We are imprisoned in the flesh we are born into. A Divine Nature is to OBEY the Word of God, and to Love those who we don't want to love. i don't think you understand the differences between the three different types of Sins, you say you do, but it is apparent you do not. You seem to lump in every verse about sin into ONE category, not realizing that sin has several different categories.

All sin is intentional, as James 1:14-15 makes clear.

And here is the evidence that what i just said above is True. You are not able to see the differences between the different kinds of sinning.. Let us go to James 1: 14-15 and see if it actually says that ALL sin is intentional, or is that the false doctrine that you believe in.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sigh.. .. . . as i expected, These verses has NOTHING to do with ALL SIN is intentional. You must be a very young one.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted (To CHOOSE), when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

These verses is specifically and clearly talking about Sins that a person CHOOSES to commit, that they are tempted to knowingly and willingly commit a sin, their lust, their selfishness is what Chooses to obey that which they are tempted.

YOU FALSELY teach, these verses teach

All sin is intentional, as James 1:14-15 makes clear.

Clear for whom? To you i can see, but you are in error. The verses you say are CLEAR that ALL SIN is intentional, is nothing but hog manure, that you are trying to pass off as Truth. Do you think God is pleased with this kind of thing? YOU TEACH those verses are CLEAR that ALL SIN is intentional. You teach a false doctrine, and thereby Commit sin. How did you not just now LIE by saying James 1:14-15 CLEARLY teaches that ALL SIN is intentional. Did you commit this sin of lying intentionally or did you falsely believe that James 1:14-15 Clearly teaches ALL SIN in intentional.

Logic itself proves you to be lying, when you teach the false doctrine that ALL SIN IS INTENTIONAL.

Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

So we are told to put off filthy communication out of our mouths. Tell me therefore, if i hit my thumb with a hammer, and i accidently said filthy communication out of my mouth (Committed a sin by doing so) Tell me HOW WAS THAT INTENTIONAL? You do error not believing the prophets of God, but choosing to believe your own Truths instead.

Sin-repent; sin-repent; sin-repent; until dying.
Jesus broke that cycle by allowing us to be reborn of God's seed.

This is Truth.

You had just written "Non-sinner? Don't think there is such a thing."
How then are you going to teach me how to get sin out of my life?

Having ears to hear but refuse to hear with them. i have made it clear that sins that i am referring to, are those that are knowingly and willingly committed. It seems you are unable to comprehend what i am saying. So i will try to break it down for you, as if you are still on MILK of the Word.

You had just written "Non-sinner? Don't think there is such a thing."
How then are you going to teach me how to get sin out of my life?

Non-sinner? Don't think there is such a thing. NON sinner being someone who does not commit any sins knowingly/ willingly AND also those who commit sins UNknowingly or UNwillingly.
A NON-Sinner would be a person who never commits any of the three types of sins. Which i believe does not exist, unless like i said they were on a deserted island ALONE. i can't even drive to the market without offending someone. i drive the speed limit, i cause people to get upset. i go with the traffic over the speed limit, this upsets people as well. i bend over to do some work on something and i have now offended someone with crack. So i try to wear longer shirts and stuff. But i could come up with hundreds of different sins that i did not intentionally commit, yet they were committed nonetheless.
So then i don't think it is possible for a person to be a non-sinner, if we are talking about BOTH types of Sinning.

How then are you going to teach me how to get sin out of my life?

Because you are NOT understanding what i am saying to you, the Sin i can help you get out of your life, is the type of sin that you knowingly and willingly commit. These are the sins that i teach against, which i have clearly said to you, but it seems upon deaf ears. i don't think you are understanding what i teach, which leads me to believe you must be very young.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If Righteousness automatically came after accepting Jesus in yourself, why would Jesus have a need to COMMAND us to Love One Another? If because Jesus lives in us, we would automatically be loving one another (doing righteousness) then why does He COMMAND us to do it? He COMMANDS us to love one Another, because that is something we CHOOSE to do, NOT something that comes automatically because Jesus is in us.

You answered your own question. It's NOT automatic. You have to choose to walk in the Spirit. And so God tells us what those choices are and commands them. But you are able to make that choice, if you do make that choice, because you already have the righteousness of God in you by the Holy Spirit. You don't make that choice to get the righteousness of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit is what compels you to make the choice for righteousness (if you make that choice) just as the flesh is what compelled you to make the choice for wickedness (when you made that choice) when you were in the flesh. And, just like when you were in the flesh choosing unrighteous behavior, the ease with which you make the choice for righteous behavior is directly related to how grown up in and acquainted you are with the new nature you have within you.

When we were natural people we became, over time, deeply acquainted with and committed to the desires of the flesh (we didn't start out that way), and as a result made those choices much easier and more often. So it is with the spiritual person. Over time we become deeply acquainted with and committed to the desires of the Spirit, and as a result make those choices much easier and more often. It's a growth process. Everybody is growing up into the nature they possess, whether that be the old nature of the natural person, or the new nature of the spiritual person.

 

[Hopeful]

Those reborn of God's seed cannot commit adultery. This is Truth. Does that mean it is not possible that they can commit adultery? No.

It is possible for one claiming falsely that they are reborn of God's seed to commit sin.
But those actually born of God have no choice...or are you also willing to say that a grape seed can choose to bring forth figs?
Seed can only bear after itself. (1 John 3:9-10)

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
This is specifically talking about those who abide in Jesus Christ will NOT CHOOSE to commit sin. These verses are not talking about or referring to Sins that are NOT unto death. But are specifically talking about Willful sins.

All sin is willful so your POV is off-base. (James 1:14-15)

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that (knowingly and willingly) committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil (knowingly and willingly) sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (So people don't CHOOSE to commit sins any longer)
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (Willful) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness (Willfully CHOOSE to do that which is NOT Righteous) is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You do error in thinking these verses apply to all three types of sinning. They don't, these verses apply to the Sins unto death. Those that are knowingly and willingly committed. These verses do NOT apply to the Type of Sin that is NOT forgiven unto men, blaspheme of the Holy Ghost, nor are these verses referring to sins that are NOT knowingly and willingly committed.

There are two kinds of sin, that which can be forgiven and that which cannot be forgiven.
All sin is on purpose, as it requires temptation, lust, enticement, and conception.

Tell me, if i being reborn of God's seed, type in a search engine, "tomato plants" And a porn picture pops up on my screen, and i viewed the nakedness of people in abominable deeds with each other, am i no longer Born of God because of that sin? You do error thinking 1 John is referring to ALL Types of sin, it is NOT.

Did lust drive your choice?
Were you enticed to look at it?
Did you look because you were tempted to look?
No?
It was no sin.
If you lingered after its appearance it was a sin.

Frankly, I am surprised you are unaware of Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
No lust?
No sin !
The verse isn't just wishful thinking.

 

[Hopeful]

We are NOT God. We are imprisoned in the flesh we are born into.

Thanks be to God we can be reborn, so your scenario has no power.

A Divine Nature is to OBEY the Word of God, and to Love those who we don't want to love. i don't think you understand the differences between the three different types of Sins, you say you do, but it is apparent you do not. You seem to lump in every verse about sin into ONE category, not realizing that sin has several different categories.

There is one kind of sin, (in this context), and it is done on purpose.

And here is the evidence that what i just said above is True. You are not able to see the differences between the different kinds of sinning.. Let us go to James 1: 14-15 and see if it actually says that ALL sin is intentional, or is that the false doctrine that you believe in.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Sigh.. .. . . as i expected, These verses has NOTHING to do with ALL SIN is intentional. You must be a very young one.

As James made it clear what is required to call some act a sin, you are in error.
No enticement?
No sin.
No lust?
No sin.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted (To CHOOSE), when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
These verses is specifically and clearly talking about Sins that a person CHOOSES to commit, that they are tempted to knowingly and willingly commit a sin, their lust, their selfishness is what Chooses to obey that which they are tempted.

That is because there are no other types.
All sin is the result of James' four elements...temptation, lust, enticement, and conception.
Without just one of those elements, there is no sin.

YOU FALSELY teach, these verses teach
Clear for whom? To you i can see, but you are in error. The verses you say are CLEAR that ALL SIN is intentional, is nothing but hog manure, that you are trying to pass off as Truth. Do you think God is pleased with this kind of thing? YOU TEACH those verses are CLEAR that ALL SIN is intentional. You teach a false doctrine, and thereby Commit sin. How did you not just now LIE by saying James 1:14-15 CLEARLY teaches that ALL SIN is intentional. Did you commit this sin of lying intentionally or did you falsely believe that James 1:14-15 Clearly teaches ALL SIN in intentional.

I agree with James.
You should too.

Logic itself proves you to be lying, when you teach the false doctrine that ALL SIN IS INTENTIONAL.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Thank God for Paul's exhortations !
I am glad Paul noted the "old man", and that is "put off".
Can a man tell a lie accidently?
If something said in untrue, it is only a lie if it was said to deliberately fool someone.
Otherwise it is just a mistake.

So we are told to put off filthy communication out of our mouths. Tell me therefore, if i hit my thumb with a hammer, and i accidently said filthy communication out of my mouth (Committed a sin by doing so) Tell me HOW WAS THAT INTENTIONAL? You do error not believing the prophets of God, but choosing to believe your own Truths instead.

It isn't intentional, so not a sin.
It will require you to learn from scripture about controlling your mouth.

This is Truth.

Then why fight it?
God's seed cannot bear the devil's fruit, whether there was one kind of sin or three.
Apple seeds don't ever bear onions...accidently.

Having ears to hear but refuse to hear with them. i have made it clear that sins that i am referring to, are those that are knowingly and willingly committed. It seems you are unable to comprehend what i am saying. So i will try to break it down for you, as if you are still on MILK of the Word.

All sin is willfully done, or it isn't a sin.
If a kid runs out into the street and is killed by a passing car that is doing the speed limit, is that a sin?
You say "yes it is sin...but unintentional".
I say "no", it was just an accident.

Non-sinner? Don't think there is such a thing. NON sinner being someone who does not commit any sins knowingly/ willingly AND also those who commit sins UNknowingly or UNwillingly.

When was the last "unknowing-unwilling" murder committed?
Rape, kidnapping, lie, theft, slander, cheat, libel?
Murder, and the rest of the "sins" implies will and knowledge.

A NON-Sinner would be a person who never commits any of the three types of sins. Which i believe does not exist, unless like i said they were on a deserted island ALONE. i can't even drive to the market without offending someone. i drive the speed limit, i cause people to get upset. i go with the traffic over the speed limit, this upsets people as well. i bend over to do some work on something and i have now offended someone with crack. So i try to wear longer shirts and stuff. But i could come up with hundreds of different sins that i did not intentionally commit, yet they were committed nonetheless.
So then i don't think it is possible for a person to be a non-sinner, if we are talking about BOTH types of Sinning.

You seem to be seeking condemnation.
"Seek and ye shall find".

Because you are NOT understanding what i am saying to you, the Sin i can help you get out of your life, is the type of sin that you knowingly and willingly commit. These are the sins that i teach against, which i have clearly said to you, but it seems upon deaf ears. i don't think you are understanding what i teach, which leads me to believe you must be very young.

How do you teach a man not to accidently hit a kid who runs out from between parked cars?
How do you teach a man not to err in his checkbook?
How do you teach a man to not give the wrong directions to some point on a map?

Jesus didn't die so we could balance our checkbooks.
He died so we could walk honestly among those who need us in time of trouble.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But thankfully we start from the position of being reborn of God's seed, which cannot bear the devil's fruit. (1 John 3:9)

The problem with your sinless perfection doctrine is it says all true believers start out as fully grown and mature. Whereas the Bible speaks of growing up into maturity: "...as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ." Ephesians 4:13

 

[Hopeful]

The problem with your sinless perfection doctrine is it says all true believers start out as fully grown and mature. Whereas the Bible speaks of growing up into maturity: "...as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ." Ephesians 4:13

Not at all, just NOT of Adam's seed anymore.
I pray to keep growing in grace and knowledge regularly.

 

[DiscipleDave]

You answered your own question. It's NOT automatic. You have to choose to walk in the Spirit. And so God tells us what those choices are and commands them. But you are able to make that choice, if you do make that choice, because you already have the righteousness of God in you by the Holy Spirit. You don't make that choice to get the righteousness of the Holy Spirit.

i think we are understanding the same thing, but saying it differently. We do not make the choice to GET the righteousness of the Holy Spirit, but because we make the choice, we ARE righteous. Those who Do righteousness ARE righteous.

The Spirit is what compels you to make the choice for righteousness (if you make that choice) just as the flesh is what compelled you to make the choice for wickedness (when you made that choice) when you were in the flesh. And, just like when you were in the flesh choosing unrighteous behavior, the ease with which you make the choice for righteous behavior is directly related to how grown up in and acquainted you are with the new nature you have within you.

Again, this is Truth.

When we were natural people we became, over time, deeply acquainted with and committed to the desires of the flesh (we didn't start out that way), and as a result made those choices much easier and more often. So it is with the spiritual person. Over time we become deeply acquainted with and committed to the desires of the Spirit, and as a result make those choices much easier and more often. It's a growth process. Everybody is growing up into the nature they possess, whether that be the old nature of the natural person, or the new nature of the spiritual person.

Again, everything Truth. i can tell you have been led by the Spirit of Truth as well. i would like to add these things.

When we were natural people we became, over time, deeply acquainted with and committed to the desires of the flesh (we didn't start out that way) and as a result made those choices much easier and more often.

This is True, and is also the reason most teens go through a rebellious Stage, when they are becoming young adults. A design in humans that God set up from the beginning. By the time we realize how filthy and pathetic we actually are, we know we need to be cleansed from the filth. If nobody ever got dirty, there would be no need for a bath.

So it is with the spiritual person. Over time we become deeply acquainted with and committed to the desires of the Spirit, and as a result make those choices much easier and more often.

This is Truth. The more spiritual a person walks, the more they desire to do that which is spiritual. And you freely choose to make those choices more and more because you are spiritually rewarded.
But here is the thing though, starting out, the Spirit does not do much leading, the person has to choose to make right choses.
For example a newbie Christian, is not going to be led by the Spirit coming out of the gate. So the New Christian must first OBEY the Word of God, without very much help from the Spirit, who is not yet strong enough to be leading the carnal person in the path they need to be going. So then that person before getting Saved, stole many things all the time. AFTER being Saved, the Holy Spirit does NOT guide them in making the choice to NOT steal. That has to happen FIRST in the carnal mind of the person who was just Saved. So say they are tempted to steal something, the only thing the Spirit will be able to do at that time is softly, barely whispering "you just got Saved" in hopes that person will freely choose to NOT steal.

i made a video about Feeding the Spirit. Like you said the Spirit Grows, the more it grows the more Spiritual you become, and also the more that Spirit will be able to communicate to your flesh mind. Reading OR hearing the Word of God, is food for the Spirit. Regardless if YOU understand the Word or not, the Spirit is being fed by it. made a video called Feeding the Spirit:

 

[DiscipleDave]

I agree with James.
You should too.

i agree with all that James said, i do not believe what YOU think James meant.

If you think i am wrong or false, then prove it. Reveal anything i have said, that is contrary to any verse in Scriptures. Matters of fact let me make it even easier for you, i have made over 100 videos on YouTube, reveal something i said in any one of them, that is contrary to the Word of God, then i am false. You Can't. Know how i know that, because i teach Truths of God, NOTHING contrary to Scriptures.
Oh, and save your typing skills if you are going to reveal something that i said, that YOU personally don't agree with, or your own opinion why YOU THINK it is wrong. The Word of God is my Judge, not what YOU THINK.

i teach Truths of God, and it is clear you don't believe those things God has told me in conversations.

Love you Brother, and may you forever NOT obey satan ever again and knowingly and willingly commit sins. i think i have done a fairly good job until recently, answering all your questions you asked of me. So then to not hinder our conversation, answer me this question: Can you reveal to me, one thing i have said that is contrary to Scriptures, or reveal to me in any one of over a hundred videos where i have said something that is contrary to Scriptures? Answer me this question, so we can continue to have this conversation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I pray to keep growing in grace and knowledge regularly.

If you are already perfect and complete what's left to grow up into? Explain.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God's seed cannot bear the devil's fruit, whether there was one kind of sin or three.
Apple seeds don't ever bear onions...accidently.

I think the crux of your misunderstanding is believers still have the flesh and it's desires. That is where sin comes from in the believer (Galatians 5:17). It does not come from the spirit of the born again believer as it does for the natural man. That is why we are sometimes the proverbial fresh water/ salt water spring, and the fruit tree that bears thorns and thistles (or bad fruit, whichever analogy you want to use). We aren't characterized by those flaws, as the unbeliever is, but we have them, but less and less as we grow up into the image and stature of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus didn't die so we could balance our checkbooks.
He died so we could walk honestly among those who need us in time of trouble.

Not just for that.

He died so we would not be injurious to others (Romans 13:10). And if that means keeping your checkbook balanced so you don't bounce any checks then that's what he died for, too.