Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Hopeful]

i agree with all that James said, i do not believe what YOU think James meant.

If you think i am wrong or false, then prove it.

I already did, when I answered post 690 with post 692.

Reveal anything i have said, that is contrary to any verse in Scriptures.

You insist sin can be committed without enticement, lust, temptation, or conception.
James says differently.

Matters of fact let me make it even easier for you, i have made over 100 videos on YouTube, reveal something i said in any one of them, that is contrary to the Word of God, then i am false. You Can't. Know how i know that, because i teach Truths of God, NOTHING contrary to Scriptures.
Oh, and save your typing skills if you are going to reveal something that i said, that YOU personally don't agree with, or your own opinion why YOU THINK it is wrong. The Word of God is my Judge, not what YOU THINK.

I am not interested in watching your videos after seeing all you want to do is bring inescapable condemnation.

i teach Truths of God, and it is clear you don't believe those things God has told me in conversations.

Why isn't your "truth" the truth Jesus said could free us from committing sin... in John 8:32-34?
I believe Jesus, and not your rebuttal of His words.

Love you Brother, and may you forever NOT obey satan ever again and knowingly and willingly commit sins. i think i have done a fairly good job until recently, answering all your questions you asked of me. So then to not hinder our conversation, answer me this question: Can you reveal to me, one thing i have said that is contrary to Scriptures, or reveal to me in any one of over a hundred videos where i have said something that is contrary to Scriptures? Answer me this question, so we can continue to have this conversation.

Read above.

 

[Hopeful]

If you are already perfect and complete what's left to grow up into? Explain.

Perfectly sinless is different from memorizing chapters of scripture perfectly, or bowling a perfect game or cooking chicken perfectly.
Don't blur the lane dividers.
Doesn't a perfect newborn infant grow in strength and knowledge?
In skill and dexterity?
In ability and wisdom?
Perfect obedience to God is possible for all of us.
Thanks be to God !

 

[Hopeful]

I think the crux of your misunderstanding is believers still have the flesh and it's desires.

You are wrong.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

That is where sin comes from in the believer (Galatians 5:17). It does not come from the spirit of the born again believer as it does for the natural man. That is why we are sometimes the proverbial fresh water/ salt water spring, and the fruit tree that bears thorns and thistles (or bad fruit, whichever analogy you want to use). We aren't characterized by those flaws, as the unbeliever is, but we have them, but less and less as we grow up into the image and stature of Christ.

I prefer white to any shades of gray, fresh water to salty.
Believers don't sin.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:9-10)

 

[Hopeful]

Not just for that.

He died so we would not be injurious to others (Romans 13:10). And if that means keeping your checkbook balanced so you don't bounce any checks then that's what he died for, too.

At least you know He died so "we would not be injurious to others".
Or to ourselves.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Perfectly sinless is different from memorizing chapters of scripture perfectly, or bowling a perfect game or cooking chicken perfectly.
Don't blur the lane dividers.
Doesn't a perfect newborn infant grow in strength and knowledge?
In skill and dexterity?
In ability and wisdom?
Perfect obedience to God is possible for all of us.
Thanks be to God !

This doesn’t address the matter of the perfectly sinless babe in Christ.

I do think that a person can mature to a virtually sinless life as a Christian. I do not believe for a minute that a person has to become that the instant they believe or else they aren’t really a believer as you say. Christian maturity belongs to the aged who have endured in the faith and have been trained through the trials and failures and victories and lessons of life and as a result do not live the rest of their lives for the flesh but rather the will of God, 1 Peter 4:1-2, Hebrews 5:13-14.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are wrong.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

Don’t ignore it. I showed you just seven verses before this (Galatians 5:17) that the flesh being crucified does NOT mean those in Christ can not sin. The ‘you’ in that verse is every born again person who has the Spirit in them who doesn’t do what they want to do because of the flesh. I challenge you to post that verse including whatever context you want to include with it and tell me it doesn’t say that.

I prefer white to any shades of gray, fresh water to salty.
Believers don't sin.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:9-10)

We know from the whole context and counsel of the scriptures that it’s impossible that John is saying born again people never, ever sin, and that if they do they aren’t really born again.

False doctrine can almost always be traced back to a failure to consider the whole counsel of scripture. That is clearly the case with your doctrine. I am curious to know which denomination teaches this. Will you tell me?

 

[Hopeful]

This doesn’t address the matter of the perfectly sinless babe in Christ.

Can God's seed, from which the babe is reborn, bear the devil's fruit?
No.

I do think that a person can mature to a virtually sinless life as a Christian.

Ever seen that happen?
I haven't.

I do not believe for a minute that a person has to become that the instant they believe or else they aren’t really a believer as you say. Christian maturity belongs to the aged who have endured in the faith and have been trained through the trials and failures and victories and lessons of life and as a result do not live the rest of their lives for the flesh but rather the will of God, 1 Peter 4:1-2, Hebrews 5:13-14.

And still, the seed of God cannot bring forth liars, adulterers, or thieves. (1 John 3:9)
Do you really believe God's seed will bring them forth?

 

[Hopeful]

Don’t ignore it. I showed you just seven verses before this (Galatians 5:17) that the flesh being crucified does NOT mean those in Christ can not sin. The ‘you’ in that verse is every born again person who has the Spirit in them who doesn’t do what they want to do because of the flesh. I challenge you to post that verse including whatever context you want to include with it and tell me it doesn’t say that.

Your denial of the truth doesn't make it untrue.

We know from the whole context and counsel of the scriptures that it’s impossible that John is saying born again people never, ever sin, and that if they do they aren’t really born again.

You ignore the scripture, specifically 1 John 3:9-10, to accommodate sin.

False doctrine can almost always be traced back to a failure to consider the whole counsel of scripture. That is clearly the case with your doctrine. I am curious to know which denomination teaches this. Will you tell me?

All false doctrines have one thing in common.
They all accommodate sin.
The domination that teaches we can obey God without, fault is the first one...the Church By Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can God's seed, from which the babe is reborn, bear the devil's fruit?
No.

Correct.
I showed you that sin comes from the flesh of the born again, Spirit filled person, not from God's seed planted in them - Galatians 5:17.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ever seen that happen?
I haven't.

I can only speak of very mature Christians that I have known. I have no way of observing their every waking moment to know if they are 100% sinless, mature, complete and perfect.

Remember, I'm resisting your contention that every single truly believing person is 100% sinless the moment they are born again. So, you've not only seen elderly mature sinless people, you've seen mature, complete and perfect new born babies in Christ!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And still, the seed of God cannot bring forth liars, adulterers, or thieves. (1 John 3:9)
Do you really believe God's seed will bring them forth?

No, as the scriptures say, sin comes from the believer's flesh. Galatians 5:17, Romans 7:18-20.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your denial of the truth doesn't make it untrue.

You're the one denying the plain words of Galatians 5:17 that make it impossible for you to believe the doctrine of sinless perfection. Paul is clearly delineating between the Spirit in the believer and his flesh and the war between the two, and that the flesh is why "ye cannot do the things that ye would."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You ignore the scripture, specifically 1 John 3:9-10, to accommodate sin.

You HAVE to read 1 John 3:9-10 in light of the WHOLE counsel of scripture. Galatians 5:17 makes it impossible that John was saying born again people are 100% sinless or they aren't really born again. The whole counsel of scripture shows us that John is referring to the practice, or lifestyle of sin. Born again people are characterized by their lifestyle and practice of righteous behavior, while people who are not born again are characterized by their lifestyle and practice of unrighteous behavior.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All false doctrines have one thing in common.
They all accommodate sin.

Galatians 5:17 and Romans 7:18-20 doesn't accommodate sin in the believer. It explains it.

Paul is very clear that people who accommodate a lifestyle of sin will not inherit the kingdom of God. Meanwhile, those who war against sin, sometimes successfully, sometimes not, will. Their sin coming from the flesh they still possess, not from the core of an Adamic mindset they no longer possess.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The domination that teaches we can obey God without, fault is the first one...the Church By Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21).

Yes, I know, everybody thinks their church is the one and only true church of Christ, lol. I'm asking what the specific name of your church is on the sign out in front of the building where you meet. And if you don't meet in a church like that, what name do you call your denomination?

 

[Hopeful]

Correct.
I showed you that sin comes from the flesh of the born again, Spirit filled person, not from God's seed planted in them - Galatians 5:17.

The born again don't have any "flesh" to promote or prompt any sin.
Sin comes from the fleshly oriented minds of those not walking in the Spirit.
The reborn walk with Spiritually oriented minds.

 

[Hopeful]

I can only speak of very mature Christians that I have known. I have no way of observing their every waking moment to know if they are 100% sinless, mature, complete and perfect.

Remember, I'm resisting your contention that every single truly believing person is 100% sinless the moment they are born again. So, you've not only seen elderly mature sinless people, you've seen mature, complete and perfect new born babies in Christ!

Don't you believe that water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins washes away our sins?
I do. (Acts 2:38, 22:16, 1 John 1:7)

 

[Hopeful]

No, as the scriptures say, sin comes from the believer's flesh. Galatians 5:17, Romans 7:18-20.

Thank God we are no longer in the "flesh".
It is written..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:9)

 

[Hopeful]

You're the one denying the plain words of Galatians 5:17 that make it impossible for you to believe the doctrine of sinless perfection. Paul is clearly delineating between the Spirit in the believer and his flesh and the war between the two, and that the flesh is why "ye cannot do the things that ye would."

It is written..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:9)
Thank God Paul also wrote Gal 5:16..."This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
We have the choice as to whom we serve.
And..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Dead flesh, dead lusts !

 

[Hopeful]

You HAVE to read 1 John 3:9-10 in light of the WHOLE counsel of scripture. Galatians 5:17 makes it impossible that John was saying born again people are 100% sinless or they aren't really born again. The whole counsel of scripture shows us that John is referring to the practice, or lifestyle of sin. Born again people are characterized by their lifestyle and practice of righteous behavior, while people who are not born again are characterized by their lifestyle and practice of unrighteous behavior.

What you are saying...figuratively...is that a fig can be reborn of a grape seed, but will continue to bring forth figs.
The whole counsel of God is to do right, at any cost.
Your accommodation for wrong is not of God's council.