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iwll42

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Jesus took up sins of world by dying.

BUT, how that works ?

This doesn't make sense. Like imagine father beats mother, and in order father to be forgiven child will die in order to atone for father sins.

So, that's like mafia. In order mafia to forgive you they need to take something from you that carry value, like your child.

Why is God bloodthirst that way ? Like really ? Why he can't just separate sin from our life, when we sincerely ask ?

People before Jesus, in old testament by faith were justified. So, by faith we are justified, we show willingles to follow God. Why there have to be that someone goes through hell ?
And same is when they say, that Jesus died second death on cross.
To me it looks like, one righteous person, should suffer the most.

Like, purpose of being righteous is so we could suffer ?


And after all, Jesus died and did all that stuff, and we all alive today are not even aware when those stuff happened. So, it looks like a monk self beating just so God would be happy.


He eouldn't accept me in my sin. I understand that. But, God cleanses person through fire of Holy Spirit thus making new person and body, that's what he could do, and thus it's atoned for by the fact that previous is already cleansed by Spirit.
After all, arent we instructed that we should stay in Spirit and cleansed daily ?

So, why Jesus died for ?


On other hand, Jesus sacrifice can show that God is not hyocritical, that He won't judge people, without himself experiencing it firsthand and shoeing that they can really do it. And based solely on Christ rightrous life, people could be judged by Christ. Thus it says, God doesn't judge anyone, He gave all judgment to Jesus.
Because Jesus represent proof that God is not requiring from us any more than what He himself could do.
 
God is perfectly holy. He cannot just forgive sin like you or I can. Sin has to be paid for by blood. But I can't shed my blood to pay for your sin, nor can you for me. Because we are already both sinners.

So God needs a perfect sinless person to do that sacrifice. Since that person is God Himself in the person of His Son, that blood can be or infinite worth, enough to pay for infinite sins.

This shows that sin is serious, not just some petty thing that can just be brushed off.
 
Hi iwll42

Now that you have decided that it's just absolutely preposterous that such a thing could be. Consider how much your Creator loves you that He allows it to be that way that seems so unfair to you. Just imagine how unfair it must feel to God, but He loves you and He did it for you.

Or continue in your refusal and shaking of fists until... well, if the Scriptures are true, you find yourself standing in front of Him trying to explain why you refused to accept such a great offer of love to you. He's going to really get a kick out of the part where you tell Him that it just seemed so unfair and preposterous to you.

God bless,
Ted
 
Now that you have decided that it's just absolutely preposterous that such a thing could be. Consider how much your Creator loves you that He allows it to be that way that seems so unfair to you. Just imagine how unfair it must feel to God, but He loves you and He did it for you.

Or continue in your refusal and shaking of fists until... well, if the Scriptures are true, you find yourself standing in front of Him trying to explain why you refused to accept such a great offer of love to you. He's going to really get a kick out of the part where you tell Him that it just seemed so unfair and preposterous to you.

God bless,
Ted


I often wonder same about this, and then what is the price of the soul ? Like, is it that important ? Why ?

Psalm 144:3-4:
"LORD, what is mankind that you should notice them, human beings that you should consider them? Man is like a breath; his days are like a passing shadow"


Oftentimes, people treat each others like we have no value, like, how easy people die in movies, how we're all NPC for rich and powerful, for those who take power, to them belong everything.
 
Hi iwll42

Yes, everything is coming along just as God has told us and forewarned us that it would. Hate, anger, greed, lust, gossip, all sorts of immoral sexual practices. And not just those things but they invent ways of doing ever more evil. Come Lord Jesus, Selah!

God bless,
Ted
 
This doesn't make sense. Like imagine father beats mother, and in order father to be forgiven child will die in order to atone for father sins
You've been paying too much attention to Dawkins and his like, with there accusation of cosmic child abuse.

All it does is expose how ignorant they are of theology.

Question. Who is it that sin is an offence against?
Answer God.
Who is Jesus?
Answer He is God the Son.

Only God can forgive sins, through his own payment of the penalty for sin.

When looked at this way, one can see how childish Dawkins etc accusation is.
 
Hi iwll42
I often wonder same about this, and then what is the price of the soul ? Like, is it that important ? Why ?
You seem to allow yourself to become distracted by unimportant things, to appease your belief system.

What is the price of a soul? You mean like, what, in dollars and cents? Let me just say that while you throw out all of these seemingly nonsensical arguments to show 'why' you don't understand what's happening to be of importance, there will come a day that you will know the value of your soul. Without Jesus, it won't be worth very much... if the Scriptures are true.

So, your issue seems to be that you don't see the Scriptures as being true. Just an ancient story of some kind passed down through the generations of an ignorant people that don't understand all that we know today.

Are you up for a challenge? I mean, let's do away with everything that's in the Scriptures, except what it tells us about Jesus.

God bless,
Ted
 
Jesus took up sins of world by dying.

BUT, how that works ?

This doesn't make sense. Like imagine father beats mother, and in order father to be forgiven child will die in order to atone for father sins.

So, that's like mafia. In order mafia to forgive you they need to take something from you that carry value, like your child.

Why did Christ have to die for the sins of mankind? Because the Creator of the Universe has declared that "the soul that sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20) and that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin" (Hebrews 9:22). Why has God ordained that things should be this way? Well, why did God ordain gravity, or entropy, or that we should have two arms rather than four, or that most of the universe is empty space? Because He's God and can do as He pleases in the universe He made and sustains at every moment.

Your analogy to the Atonement in the quotation above is not well made. God possesses prerogatives as God that no other creature possesses. As I already pointed out, He has the right to demand retributive payment for sin, a punishment for sin, in the universe that exists entirely because He wills that it should. As Creator-God, He sets the rules for everything, too, and doesn't consult us about them. From His own perfectly holy and just nature, He derives the standard for moral goodness and moral evil, for right and wrong, and for what is appropriate punishment for our disobedience to His commands. God also gives all life and has the right, therefore, to take it. And so on.

God, then, isn't just some human, or near-human, who is confined by, and subject to, our limitations, to our finite understanding, our contingent existence, and our paltry human authority. Extrapolating from us to Him, then, and expecting our constraints of being to be His, is to misunderstand profoundly who God is. So, He is nothing like a Mafia don demanding criminal payment from someone seeking his "forgiveness."

Why is God bloodthirst that way ? Like really ? Why he can't just separate sin from our life, when we sincerely ask ?

How is God bloodthirsty? He's perfect and requires nothing - certainly not blood. And He does separate us from our sin, from its penalty and power, by uniting us spiritually with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection, and in so doing putting to death the source of all our sin, our "old man" (Romans 6:1-6), raising us to new life in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17; Titus 3:5; Ephesians 4:24). The shed blood of Christ cleanses us from the stain of our sin, liberating us from the death-producing consequences of our sin (Romans 6:23; James 1:14-16), and the cross holds our "old man" powerless, separating us from its incorrigibly rebellious, selfish and sinful nature (Romans 8:5-8; Romans 7:18; Titus 3:3; Galatians 5:17). All of this God has accomplished for us at terrible cost to Himself when what we deserved, what our sin warranted, was our eternal punishment in hell. God, then, is not "bloodthirsty" but merciful and gracious beyond understanding!

Imagine a courtroom where a murderer of a family of five is standing before the judge to be sentenced and the murderer says, "I'm really sorry and I promise I'll never murder anyone ever again. Please, just let me go." The judge shrugs his shoulders and replies, "Sure. Why not? You've asked nicely and you've promised never to commit such a terrible crime again, so, I think I'll set you free." Would you think the judge had done right? What do you think the relatives of the murdered family would think? Has justice been done in letting a man who has murdered two adults and three children, a family, to walk away from his crime unpunished? Obviously not.

Why, then, should God act like this unjust judge and let us off the punishment we deserve if we just ask sincerely and nicely? Why should our sin, that is so awful in God's eyes that it deserves the punishment of eternal hell, be "swept under the carpet" by God? How would this demonstrate holiness and justice? Well, it wouldn't.

People before Jesus, in old testament by faith were justified.

You are forgetting the blood sacrifices God required for sin, the offering of animals in atonement for sin. While the exertion of faith in God and His promises was "counted for righteousness" in the OT, it did not expiate sin, such faith did not make up for sinful acts, standing in place of animal sacrifice and making them unnecessary. Not at all. Long before Moses, as far back as Cain and Abel, humans knew to make offerings of animals to God (Genesis 4:3-5).

Why there have to be that someone goes through hell ?

Because their sin is so awful in God's sight that it deserves the terrible punishment of hell. That we, as sin-loving creatures, cannot understand the awfulness of our sin, that our sin is so terrible it deserves the punishment of eternal hell, doesn't mean God has gone too far in His punishment of it. When we wonder at God's hatred of our sin, we simply reveal how corrupt we are, not how unfair or cruel God is.

To me it looks like, one righteous person, should suffer the most.

Like, purpose of being righteous is so we could suffer ?

Jesus had to die for our sin because only he, being the infinite and perfectly sinless God-Man, could properly atone for our sin. To completely satisfy God's perfectly holy justice, only such a sacrifice for sin would do. None of us could be such a sacrifice since we are all corrupted and stained by our sin. Only Christ could make full atonement for our sin in our place (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 9 - 10:22; 1 John 4:9-10). It isn't, then, that Christ's sacrifice is a demonstration of God's cruelty but of His love, mercy and grace. No one made Jesus lay down his life; he freely chose to do so (John 10:17-18), in love and grace, for the joy that was set before him (Hebrews 12:2), enduring the cross for our sakes.

Such self-sacrifice is at the heart of godly - agape - love. Such love costs. But it is, nonetheless, the highest, best, most beautiful sort of love that there is.

And after all, Jesus died and did all that stuff, and we all alive today are not even aware when those stuff happened. So, it looks like a monk self beating just so God would be happy.

Nope. See above.

He eouldn't accept me in my sin. I understand that. But, God cleanses person through fire of Holy Spirit thus making new person and body, that's what he could do, and thus it's atoned for by the fact that previous is already cleansed by Spirit.
After all, arent we instructed that we should stay in Spirit and cleansed daily ?

God does not "cleanse through the fire of the Holy Spirit." This is nowhere stated in God's word. Only through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ may one be cleansed of their sin and saved from God's holy wrath and just punishment. Jesus is the only Door (John 10:7-10), the only Way (John 14:6), the only Savior (Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5), only in him is life eternal (John 1:1-4; 1 John 5:11-13).

The Holy Spirit brings to us the life of Christ (Romans 8:9-16), but he does so only AFTER we have trusted in Christ as Savior and submitted to him as Lord (Romans 10:9-10; James 4:6-10). The Holy Spirit applies to us the cleansing effects of Christ's atonement on the cross for our sin (Titus 3:5), coming to dwell within each person who "opens the door of their heart" to Jesus (Revelation 3:20; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20).

Nowhere, though, in Scripture are we ever told that the Spirit cleanses us daily from our sin if we "stay in him." Instead, we are told to confess our sin to God and that, in doing so, the forgiveness that is ours in Christ is applied to our sin (1 John 1:9).

On other hand, Jesus sacrifice can show that God is not hyocritical, that He won't judge people, without himself experiencing it firsthand and shoeing that they can really do it.

??? This is quite blasphemous. God would not be the least hypocritical if Christ had not died for our sin. Instead, God would be entirely within His Creator-God prerogatives to cast every sinner into hell. Thankfully, God is not only holy and just, but also merciful and gracious. And so, He has made a way for us to be saved from ourselves. This isn't God trying to understand us, or holding Himself to His own standard, but is simply an expression of the goodness of God, a demonstration of His incredible compassion and love.

Thus it says, God doesn't judge anyone, He gave all judgment to Jesus.

??? God the Father most certainly does judge! He and Christ share the same divine nature and are therefore one, acting in perfect unison, the Son fulfilling the will of the Father (John 5:30; John 6:38).
 
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Hi iwll42


This website goes in great length on the atonement. Just take your time reading and looking up the scriptures that are given. It's all about God's grace that He would that none should perish, but have eternal life with Him. These scriptures below will get you started in understanding the love that Jesus has for us.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
 
HI iwll42

Here's what you will one day learn. Whether it's on this side of judgment or not is strictly up to you.

God created this realm in which we live. Just as God created the angelic realm in which the angels live. He created this realm as a place that could sustain a form of life that He was going to create, that He called mankind. He created all the plants and flowers and stars and rocks and trees and and all the animals that inhabitat the earth. He also provided them with food to eat through the flowering plants and other animals. He made it all! He made it all for a home for a creature that He was going to create, that He called mankind.

He made mankind a little differently than He made everything else. He gave mankind an ability to reason and love. He seems to define this as something that only He and we share of all that He created in this realm. Now, I can't speak to how He created the angelic realm, but He has left us with a testimony of how He created ours. God is a being who creates with just His power to command that something be... and it becomes!

So He created this realm in which we exist. You and I sitting here in our homes in 2024, as we account years, typing away on a device of some kind. We're here because God created this home for us. This planet called earth that has all the necessary ingredients to sustain life. He created it all because He is a God who loves and is full of love and His purpose is that He will live with us and we with Him and enjoy the life that He created us for.

However, we sinned. We simply decided that we didn't want to live with the rules that God says that we must live by if we are to have lives of peace, joy and satisfaction. But we sinned and so that isn't what we get anymore. And it's not God's fault... it's ours. We would rather spend our lives hating, being angry, just not giving our Creator so much as a how do you do as we live the lives that He created.

Now you can bemoan, well that's just not fair! But it is fair, if we are to live in peace, joy and satisfaction, each and every one of us, for eternity. That's what God created this realm of existence for. He has given us a clear and concise accounting of all that He has done that we have the lives that we live now. But He also tells us that this isn't how it's always going to be. Because His purpose is to cull from all of mankind that is ever born a holy priesthood of people who love Him as much as He loves us and to have an eternally satisfying life.

Those who go through this life and decide not to accept His offer of salvation, that's the turning away from the life that refuses to acknowledge and love Him, and choosing to live life as He has created us to live will receive His promise. That's the actuality of the life and Creator that is described to us in the Scriptures. Now, there's a lot of other events talked about as we move through these days of God's patience, but the purpose for which God created this realm and the result that He will receive after He brings it all to a close, is as I have described.

God created this realm in which we live. He has given us an opportunity to accept to live the life that He has given us on His terms. We either will or we won't.

However, the first beginning of that worldview begins with believing that the Scriptures, the bible as it's called in it's modern form, are the truth of what's going on around us. That faith, I believe, starts with doing exactly what God has challenged us to do, to confirm that He is God and does know the end from the beginning. Study the hundreds of prophecies in the Scriptures.

I mean really study them. When was the prophecy first uttered? How was it fulfilled? How did the person who wrote the prophecy, at the time that it is claimed to be written, know that some event would happen exactly as they had said? Who is the prophecy about? I'll be happy to walk you through a few if you're interested.

God bless,
Ted
 
Jesus took up sins of world by dying.

BUT, how that works ?

This doesn't make sense. Like imagine father beats mother, and in order father to be forgiven child will die in order to atone for father sins.

So, that's like mafia. In order mafia to forgive you they need to take something from you that carry value, like your child.

Why is God bloodthirst that way ? Like really ? Why he can't just separate sin from our life, when we sincerely ask ?

People before Jesus, in old testament by faith were justified. So, by faith we are justified, we show willingles to follow God. Why there have to be that someone goes through hell ?
And same is when they say, that Jesus died second death on cross.
To me it looks like, one righteous person, should suffer the most.

Like, purpose of being righteous is so we could suffer ?


And after all, Jesus died and did all that stuff, and we all alive today are not even aware when those stuff happened. So, it looks like a monk self beating just so God would be happy.


He eouldn't accept me in my sin. I understand that. But, God cleanses person through fire of Holy Spirit thus making new person and body, that's what he could do, and thus it's atoned for by the fact that previous is already cleansed by Spirit.
After all, arent we instructed that we should stay in Spirit and cleansed daily ?

So, why Jesus died for ?


On other hand, Jesus sacrifice can show that God is not hyocritical, that He won't judge people, without himself experiencing it firsthand and shoeing that they can really do it. And based solely on Christ rightrous life, people could be judged by Christ. Thus it says, God doesn't judge anyone, He gave all judgment to Jesus.
Because Jesus represent proof that God is not requiring from us any more than what He himself could do.
We don't antone for our father's sin. That is individual. If a father sinned it is not us to blame.
 
Jesus took up sins of world by dying.

BUT, how that works ?

This doesn't make sense. Like imagine father beats mother, and in order father to be forgiven child will die in order to atone for father sins.

So, that's like mafia. In order mafia to forgive you they need to take something from you that carry value, like your child.

Why is God bloodthirst that way ? Like really ? Why he can't just separate sin from our life, when we sincerely ask ?

People before Jesus, in old testament by faith were justified. So, by faith we are justified, we show willingles to follow God. Why there have to be that someone goes through hell ?
And same is when they say, that Jesus died second death on cross.
To me it looks like, one righteous person, should suffer the most.

Like, purpose of being righteous is so we could suffer ?


And after all, Jesus died and did all that stuff, and we all alive today are not even aware when those stuff happened. So, it looks like a monk self beating just so God would be happy.


He eouldn't accept me in my sin. I understand that. But, God cleanses person through fire of Holy Spirit thus making new person and body, that's what he could do, and thus it's atoned for by the fact that previous is already cleansed by Spirit.
After all, arent we instructed that we should stay in Spirit and cleansed daily ?

So, why Jesus died for ?


On other hand, Jesus sacrifice can show that God is not hyocritical, that He won't judge people, without himself experiencing it firsthand and shoeing that they can really do it. And based solely on Christ rightrous life, people could be judged by Christ. Thus it says, God doesn't judge anyone, He gave all judgment to Jesus.
Because Jesus represent proof that God is not requiring from us any more than what He himself could do.

At-one-ment by Jesus' death makes cosmic sense to God, and that’s the main. The Bible resorts to picture language to give us some idea, to let us in on the secret, but no human picture can be perfect. If it could, he would not have given us more than one. I critically admire the works of C S Lewis. Here’s a bit I like from https://archive.org/details/merechristianity0000unse_u2s5/page/42/mode/1up

“Now before I became a Christian I was under the impression that the first thing Christians had to believe was one particular theory as to what the point of this dying was. According to that theory God wanted to punish people for having deserted and joined the Great Rebel, but Christ volunteered to be punished instead, and so God let us off. Now I admit that even this theory does not seem to me quite so immoral and so silly as it used to; but that is not the point I want to make. What I came to see later on was that neither this theory nor any other is Christianity. The central Christian belief is that Christ’s death has somehow put us right with God and given us a fresh start. Theories as to how it did this are another matter. A good many different theories have been held as to how it works; what all Christians are agreed on is that it does work, I will tell you what I think it is like.…”
 
Jesus took up sins of world by dying.

BUT, how that works ?

This doesn't make sense. Like imagine father beats mother, and in order father to be forgiven child will die in order to atone for father sins.

So, that's like mafia. In order mafia to forgive you they need to take something from you that carry value, like your child.

Why is God bloodthirst that way ? Like really ? Why he can't just separate sin from our life, when we sincerely ask ?

People before Jesus, in old testament by faith were justified. So, by faith we are justified, we show willingles to follow God. Why there have to be that someone goes through hell ?
And same is when they say, that Jesus died second death on cross.
To me it looks like, one righteous person, should suffer the most.

Like, purpose of being righteous is so we could suffer ?


And after all, Jesus died and did all that stuff, and we all alive today are not even aware when those stuff happened. So, it looks like a monk self beating just so God would be happy.


He eouldn't accept me in my sin. I understand that. But, God cleanses person through fire of Holy Spirit thus making new person and body, that's what he could do, and thus it's atoned for by the fact that previous is already cleansed by Spirit.
After all, arent we instructed that we should stay in Spirit and cleansed daily ?

So, why Jesus died for ?


On other hand, Jesus sacrifice can show that God is not hyocritical, that He won't judge people, without himself experiencing it firsthand and shoeing that they can really do it. And based solely on Christ rightrous life, people could be judged by Christ. Thus it says, God doesn't judge anyone, He gave all judgment to Jesus.
Because Jesus represent proof that God is not requiring from us any more than what He himself could do.
Hey All,
iwll42, it's so we don't take sin for granted. Would you take sin seriously if blood were not required as payment? Sin is life and death serious.
Life is in the blood. Because the blood carries the breath of life throughout the body. It also brings back toxins to the lungs for expulsion.
When the blood stops moving, the body dies.
Without a doubt, our blood is the most important fluid in our bodies.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
 
Greetings iwll42 and others,
People before Jesus, in old testament by faith were justified. So, by faith we are justified, we show willingles to follow God.
Browsing through the Posts, I do not think your question(s) has been adequately answered. I could extract some of the statements from the various Posts that I agree with, but there are many general statements that I disagree with, and I consider some of the doctrines expressed are erroneous. But I do not want to get bogged down discussing these in this thread.

Whatever is the correct and real understanding of the Gospel and at the heart of this, the Atonement, it must agree with your statement that I quoted above. Paul gives an exposition of the Gospel and the Atonement in his letter to the Romans, and instead of suggesting that justice and righteousness are not satisfied, he states that the righteousness of God is revealed in these things:
Romans 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

The Romans that he was writing to were already believers belonging to the Ekklesia, but Paul saw the need to not only write this letter, but in course of time to visit them and instruct and encourage them further.
Romans 1:15–17 (KJV): 15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


What is relevant to this thread is that Paul links justification by faith with God's righteousness. There was no travesty of justice, but the very character of God, his abundant mercy, balanced with his justice is revealed through the Atonement and the Gospel. This is stated more or less as Paul develops his exposition:
Romans 3:21–26 (KJV): 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

And much later another key verse is
Romans 8:1–3 (KJV): 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Instead of expounding all of the above, I would like to state that my position is that Jesus died as our representative, not our substitute. He died on our behalf, "for us", not instead of us. He was not punished because of our sins. He suffered and opened the way to God, and so that we may inherit eternal life. I will leave it there for the moment without further elaboration and hope that you will consider the Scriptures above and also other relevant Scriptures, both in Romans and elsewhere and I invite relevant answers or discussion on the above and the subject in general.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings iwll42 and others,

Instead of expounding all of the above, I would like to state that my position is that Jesus died as our representative
Hello TrevorL.
Jesus came representing our Father,

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. Jn.5:43 KJV

TrevorL:
not our substitute. He died on our behalf, "for us", not instead of us. He was not punished because of our sins.
Right. Not "in place of us", but rather enduring sins against Himself without pouring His wrath out on His enemies.
 
So, why Jesus died for ?

Jesus died for our sins and iniquities. He paid the price for our salvation, because He loves us.

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:4-6


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16




JLB
 
Jesus took up sins of world by dying.

BUT, how that works ?

This doesn't make sense. Like imagine father beats mother, and in order father to be forgiven child will die in order to atone for father sins.

So, that's like mafia. In order mafia to forgive you they need to take something from you that carry value, like your child.

Why is God bloodthirst that way ? Like really ? Why he can't just separate sin from our life, when we sincerely ask ?

People before Jesus, in old testament by faith were justified. So, by faith we are justified, we show willingles to follow God. Why there have to be that someone goes through hell ?
And same is when they say, that Jesus died second death on cross.
To me it looks like, one righteous person, should suffer the most.

Like, purpose of being righteous is so we could suffer ?


And after all, Jesus died and did all that stuff, and we all alive today are not even aware when those stuff happened. So, it looks like a monk self beating just so God would be happy.


He eouldn't accept me in my sin. I understand that. But, God cleanses person through fire of Holy Spirit thus making new person and body, that's what he could do, and thus it's atoned for by the fact that previous is already cleansed by Spirit.
After all, arent we instructed that we should stay in Spirit and cleansed daily ?

So, why Jesus died for ?


On other hand, Jesus sacrifice can show that God is not hyocritical, that He won't judge people, without himself experiencing it firsthand and shoeing that they can really do it. And based solely on Christ rightrous life, people could be judged by Christ. Thus it says, God doesn't judge anyone, He gave all judgment to Jesus.
Because Jesus represent proof that God is not requiring from us any more than what He himself could do.
Hello Iwll42.
Our Lord shows us what our Father is like because people mistreated Him terribly and yet He is willing to forgive.
Our sweet Jesus held His anger back from sinners that He could have easily destroyed.
 
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