Does Jesus atonemwnt make sense ?

[iwll42]

Jesus took up sins of world by dying.

BUT, how that works ?

This doesn't make sense. Like imagine father beats mother, and in order father to be forgiven child will die in order to atone for father sins.

So, that's like mafia. In order mafia to forgive you they need to take something from you that carry value, like your child.

Why is God bloodthirst that way ? Like really ? Why he can't just separate sin from our life, when we sincerely ask ?

People before Jesus, in old testament by faith were justified. So, by faith we are justified, we show willingles to follow God. Why there have to be that someone goes through hell ?
And same is when they say, that Jesus died second death on cross.
To me it looks like, one righteous person, should suffer the most.

Like, purpose of being righteous is so we could suffer ?


And after all, Jesus died and did all that stuff, and we all alive today are not even aware when those stuff happened. So, it looks like a monk self beating just so God would be happy.


He eouldn't accept me in my sin. I understand that. But, God cleanses person through fire of Holy Spirit thus making new person and body, that's what he could do, and thus it's atoned for by the fact that previous is already cleansed by Spirit.
After all, arent we instructed that we should stay in Spirit and cleansed daily ?

So, why Jesus died for ?


On other hand, Jesus sacrifice can show that God is not hyocritical, that He won't judge people, without himself experiencing it firsthand and shoeing that they can really do it. And based solely on Christ rightrous life, people could be judged by Christ. Thus it says, God doesn't judge anyone, He gave all judgment to Jesus.
Because Jesus represent proof that God is not requiring from us any more than what He himself could do.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings journeyman,

Jesus came representing our Father,
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. Jn.5:43 KJV
Right. Not "in place of us", but rather enduring sins against Himself without pouring His wrath out on His enemies.

Yes, He represented God His Father, and He endured the wrath of sinners and even asked for their forgiveness:
Luke 23:34 (KJV): Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
This is part of the representative aspect of the sufferings of Christ. When we hit an innocent victim, then it is like when Herod's men beat Jesus. When Saul, who became Paul, persecuted and even killed the early believers, he was persecuting Jesus.

Reminder: this forum requires that we address the OP's questions.

Yes, and the question is something like: How does the Atonement make sense and an essential part of his statement is that Penal Substitution does not seem right and just:

Jesus took up sins of world by dying. BUT, how that works ?
This doesn't make sense. Like imagine father beats mother, and in order father to be forgiven child will die in order to atone for father sins.

My ex-Baptist now part time Pentecostal Pastor claimed that the most popular teaching among the churches is actually of pagan origin, where say annually a tribe would take an innocent child and offer him for a sacrifice to appease the wrath of the various gods, of thunder, of drought, fertility etc. The god Molech could have been similar where they burnt their children. This is carried over into corrupt Christianity in the form of great emphasis on the blood. That God in His anger demands the death of the sinner and somehow Jesus offers his blood as a substitute, and God's wrath is expended instead on Jesus by beating and killing him and we go free. The Bible does not teach this travesty of justice. Some emphasise almost the blood only, but not only did Jesus give his blood, he gave his body, he gave his life, he gave himself.

But the subject of the Bible Atonement is not some pagan formula, it has many themes and they converge in the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus. To mention a few, and any of these could be fully expanded and discussed.
1. The representative nature of Christ's sacrifice can be confirmed by what Paul says about baptism in Romans 6:1-8, that the believer is united with Jesus by baptism into his death and resurrection. This is also verified by the confession of the thief who was co-crucified with Jesus, and by Paul's confession in Galatians 2:20.

2. The example of the Samaritans believing the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name is similar to the thief's confession, and they enacted the same as the thief by water baptism into the Name. The Name is a theme that has a strong beginning in Exodus 3:14, and I have a thread "The Yahweh Name" that introduces this theme.

3. The punishment on Adam was that he would suffer and then die and return to the dust Genesis 3:19. The pagan idea that man has an immortal soul that goes to heaven to receive bliss or hell at death to receive eternal torture under a vindictive devil is not taught and is a gross representation of the character of God, who is abundant in mercy, but also just. In the death of Jesus there is a reversal of the sentence in Eden, where a man dies and returns to dust because of sin. Jesus as a mortal descendant of Adam, with our fallen nature, but without ever sinning, came under this sentence. But having voluntarily submitted to even a violent death, the grave could not hold him because God's justice demanded that he should be raised from the dead. God the Father's love and fellowship with His Son was broken and God in His Love raised and gave him life as Jesus requested and pleaded for Psalm 21:1-3, Hebrews 5:7 and then God gave him immortality and exalted him to sit at God's right hand in God the Father's Throne Psalm 110:1, Revelation 3:20-21.

4. Jesus is the anti-typical Trespass, Sin, Burnt and Peace offerings, he is the Lamb of the Passover, and much of the detail concerning how and when these were offered, and in respect to the Most Holy and the Altar of Burnt Offering and without the camp have their fulfillment in Jesus.

5. When Jesus was under the three trials before Annas the actual High Priest, and Caiaphas the Roman appointed High Priest, these representative heads of the Aaronic order were shown to have failed and Jesus replaces them with the order of Melchizedek. He receives this role on the basis that he has also eternal life, he is of the order of Melchizedek for ever. Thus Annas and Caiaphas instead of trying Jesus and condemning him, were actually shown to be judged and rejected and Jesus vindicated.

6. Similarly with the three trials under Pilate and Herod, it is Jesus that is vindicated and the representatives of Rome condemned, and Jesus by these trials inherited the right to be not only the King of the Jews, but also the King of all the earth, thus fulfilling the New Creation Psalm, Psalm 8, but also Psalm 72 (refer my Psalm 72 thread).

There are most probably many other themes that could be examined, but I suggest a careful reading of Psalm 16, the Resurrection Psalm, and Psalm 17, the Call for Justice is a brief introduction to the actual thoughts and feelings of Jesus in his many trails, culminating in his crucifixion, death, resurrection and exaltation. This opens up a wealth of meditation and instruction Psalm 1, which should result in our Praise of our Heavenly Father and His Son our Lord Jesus Christ for His great Plan and Purpose, and also knowing that the present world problems, and coming controversy over Jerusalem, will usher in the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years, with Jesus as King/Priest sitting upon the Temple Throne at Jerusalem. O hasten the Day, even so come, Lord Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[journeyman]

Jesus took up sins of world by dying.

No 1wll42.
The sins of men are committed against our Lord and Savior. Sins were committed against Jesus. Sin against Him must be repented of to be forgiven.