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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Does Jesus Death cover ALL sins?
- Thread starter Orion
- Start date
C
ChristineES
Guest
Jesus forgives sins that have been repented from.
Orion said:
He paid for the sins of all. But unfortunately, his death is meaningless to those who don't believe him. Thus, the verses that say that Jesus died for few, many, and all, are all correct because Jesus died for anyone who wants forgiveness.
But as he tells us, they will be few in number. 
:
N
notapseudonym
Guest
It doesn't matter whether Christ death is meaningful or not to an individual person. Yes, it has more impact on the life of one who believes than one who dosn't. Christ died for all mens' sins, even those who do not believe. He did this so that we all may be given salvation and live with Hm forever in the next life.
In the movie "The Count of Monte Cristo" the old priests, as he is dieing, says something to Dantes that results in Dantes saying "I don't believe in God." To this the priest answeres "it doesn't matter, He believes in you."
.....Interesting to think about.
In the movie "The Count of Monte Cristo" the old priests, as he is dieing, says something to Dantes that results in Dantes saying "I don't believe in God." To this the priest answeres "it doesn't matter, He believes in you."
.....Interesting to think about.
G
Guest
Guest
Christ's death is sufficient to cover all the sins (past, present, future) of all people, but it is effecient for those who believe.
jgredline
Member
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Yes indeed, Jesus sacrifice on the cross was the perfect sacrifice, the only atonement for our sins....
It is a shame that their is a group of people who believe that it is not enough and must end up in purgatory to finish what Jesus death and resurrection could not finish....
Yes indeed, Jesus sacrifice on the cross was the perfect sacrifice, the only atonement for our sins....
It is a shame that their is a group of people who believe that it is not enough and must end up in purgatory to finish what Jesus death and resurrection could not finish....
cybershark5886 said:
Uh,. . . cybershark, . . .I most certainly DO reply to threads I start. Where have YOU been??? :-?
I've been out of town over the weekend, including Friday.
Now, back to the topic. If all sins ARE covered by Jesus death on the cross, then what causes people to go to Hell, . . . since their sins are covered by the blood?
G
Guest
Guest
Orion said:
Let me say it again - Christ's death is SUFFICIENT for ALL sins (past, present, future), but it is EFFICIENT for only those WHO BELIEVE.
R
Rick W
Guest
Not difficult to fall for Universal Reconciliation is it?
aLoneVoice, I understand what you are saying. . . .both times! :wink: My problem lies in exactly what you are saying, though. "Only being effective for a person who believe it". If all sins are covered by Christ (past, present, and future), then it is done so FOR all sins, regardless of a person's own personal mindset on the fact.
I'm not trying to open up a UR debate. Just a "what actually sends people to Hell" debate.
Potluck said:
I'm not trying to open up a UR debate. Just a "what actually sends people to Hell" debate.
R
Rick W
Guest
Orion said:
I can appreciate that. Yet, the arguments you are using are exactly the arguments those who profess UR use. Almost word for word.
Orion said:
Scripture certainly demonstrates that belief is the acceptance of the free gift of salvation. It's offered to all but not all accept it. And one must accept to receive as the following scripture points out.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
There is much scripture to support what Jesus Himself is saying.
cyberjosh
Member
I think the best way to look at it is actually the opposite of what most people think. Most people look for a reason why God "sends" people to hell when actually we should instead look at why or how God "brings people to himself" (I would say "brings people to heaven" but heaven isn't the saints' eternal dwelling place, so...). You see we are all automatically under the condemnation of sin and are geared straight for hell from the moment we are born because of our sin nature (though I believe in the moral age of accountability and God's mercy in relation to it) and so the only real question is what causes us to deviate from our natural course (bound towards hell), because if we go to hell it is because God let it happen because of our refusal to accept his sacrifice (so it is more a passive than active judgement - though action is taken on Judgement Day to affirm the sentance). But what causes us to deviate from our natural course? The answer is Jesus' blood. God is not cruel because he "condemns us to hell" (because we did that to ourselves) but rather merciful because he saves people from it. He is under no obligation however to save any one - though it is his inclination because of his merciful nature to want to save all people, granted that they will accept Jesus' sacrifice and not reject Him. Thus Jesus' mercy on us is the central picture - what deviates from the norm.
God Bless,
~Josh
cybershark, some of what you said, in the other thread, was helpful, but not all. :wink:
Same as with this thread as well. But that's what these forums are for. Each person giving their thoughts and others THEIR thoughts, and every so often, someone's thoughts are changed from what they thought before. And that is just TOO many "thoughts" in one sentence!
Anyway, as to this topic. Potluck, I am VERY well familiar with those passages in John. And, I suppose that some of what I am saying may sound like UR-ers, but to be honest, I'm not sure of what all they believe. I'm just trying to grasp an understanding of WHY people actually go to hell when all sins have been paid for by Christ on the cross.
As it may be seen in this thread, apparently the reason why someone goes to Hell is not out of their sins, but out of their lack of belief. Where the problem lies is that I've always been taught that "God cannot allow sin in His presence", so sinful people cannot go to Heaven.
1. God is currently omnipresent, so is constantly around sin since the creation of man. If time is meaningless to God, what does it matter whether it's been the short period of man, or the "eternity of Heaven"? God is still present in a sinful world.
2. If Christ's sacrifice covers all sin, then it is merely the act of someone not believing in Christ that sends them to eternal punishment. Not because of their sin. Unbelief can't be a sin. Even if it were, it would still have been covered by the blood of Christ. So it would seem that it is not because of sin that people go to Hell, but of their lack of interest/belief.
:-?
Same as with this thread as well. But that's what these forums are for. Each person giving their thoughts and others THEIR thoughts, and every so often, someone's thoughts are changed from what they thought before. And that is just TOO many "thoughts" in one sentence!
Anyway, as to this topic. Potluck, I am VERY well familiar with those passages in John. And, I suppose that some of what I am saying may sound like UR-ers, but to be honest, I'm not sure of what all they believe. I'm just trying to grasp an understanding of WHY people actually go to hell when all sins have been paid for by Christ on the cross.
As it may be seen in this thread, apparently the reason why someone goes to Hell is not out of their sins, but out of their lack of belief. Where the problem lies is that I've always been taught that "God cannot allow sin in His presence", so sinful people cannot go to Heaven.
1. God is currently omnipresent, so is constantly around sin since the creation of man. If time is meaningless to God, what does it matter whether it's been the short period of man, or the "eternity of Heaven"? God is still present in a sinful world.
2. If Christ's sacrifice covers all sin, then it is merely the act of someone not believing in Christ that sends them to eternal punishment. Not because of their sin. Unbelief can't be a sin. Even if it were, it would still have been covered by the blood of Christ. So it would seem that it is not because of sin that people go to Hell, but of their lack of interest/belief.
:-?
cyberjosh
Member
If I may, I would like to answer some of the above questions:
It might be better to say rather that God will not endure sin in his presence indefinately, else God could not have even endured Satan being near Him when Satan came to God to ask for permission to test Job. God is longsuffering now for the sake of delaying judgement, but his nature is set against sin and when all his longsuffering is over and the world has come to an end and there is no more opportunity to make decisions then God will judge in righteousness who should enter the Kingdom of God and who will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
Time is not necessarily meaningless, because he created us for a purpose and we operate inside of time and are subject to it. Therefore God is patient and longsuffering allowing as many as will choose salvation the opportunity to do so. God right now under the new Covenant has done something amazing by allowing the Gentiles to also be saved, and thus he has delayed the end times prophecies for the Jews (and thus the end times themselves - and the coming judgements) until the "fullness of the Gentiles has come in" meaning that he will allow all those who can be saved by God the chance to be saved and He will be longsuffering over many generations if necessary to give as many people a chance at being saved as possible within God's prescribed time constraints for us. God's patience and longsuffering are the reason why God endures sinfulness for the present time. That is also apparent in the parable of the tares and the wheat that Jesus gave. The tares are not torn up immediately because that would also uproot some of the wheat which it is in the midst of (the tares representing the wicked and the wheat the righteous).
Infact I'm reading Ezekiel right now and the people had begun a distasteful proverb stating that "every vision fails" meaning that God was delaying Jerusalem's desruction so long (but what they didn't know was that he was giving them an extra opportunity to repent) that they said "God's judgement will never come". At that point God then became very angry at their complacency and blindness to what he was doing and their stubborn justification of their sin that he said "I will delay no longer but judge now" (to paraphrase). That is a model of how I see it is going to happen for humanity as a whole, he is delaying to allow as many people as he can to change but he will not delay judgement indefinately.
Belief is much more than an intellectual assent or decision, it shapes our actions as well thus true biblical belief is also obedience. Look at this thread where I showed how belief/faith has the connottion of obedience. And what you have to understand is the core concept of the entire bible and that is the covenant concept. The titles of Old and New Testament are unfortunate for it literally means the Old and New Covenant. To enter into the new covenant in Jesus' blood one must accept Jesus' sacrifice and then walk accordingly in righteousness - in which God also as part of the stipulations of the new covenant promises to give us grace by which we can live up to that standard. Belief (faith) is integral because it is the method by which we recieve God's grace and then apply it in obedience.
God Bless,
~Josh
It might be better to say rather that God will not endure sin in his presence indefinately, else God could not have even endured Satan being near Him when Satan came to God to ask for permission to test Job. God is longsuffering now for the sake of delaying judgement, but his nature is set against sin and when all his longsuffering is over and the world has come to an end and there is no more opportunity to make decisions then God will judge in righteousness who should enter the Kingdom of God and who will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
Time is not necessarily meaningless, because he created us for a purpose and we operate inside of time and are subject to it. Therefore God is patient and longsuffering allowing as many as will choose salvation the opportunity to do so. God right now under the new Covenant has done something amazing by allowing the Gentiles to also be saved, and thus he has delayed the end times prophecies for the Jews (and thus the end times themselves - and the coming judgements) until the "fullness of the Gentiles has come in" meaning that he will allow all those who can be saved by God the chance to be saved and He will be longsuffering over many generations if necessary to give as many people a chance at being saved as possible within God's prescribed time constraints for us. God's patience and longsuffering are the reason why God endures sinfulness for the present time. That is also apparent in the parable of the tares and the wheat that Jesus gave. The tares are not torn up immediately because that would also uproot some of the wheat which it is in the midst of (the tares representing the wicked and the wheat the righteous).
Infact I'm reading Ezekiel right now and the people had begun a distasteful proverb stating that "every vision fails" meaning that God was delaying Jerusalem's desruction so long (but what they didn't know was that he was giving them an extra opportunity to repent) that they said "God's judgement will never come". At that point God then became very angry at their complacency and blindness to what he was doing and their stubborn justification of their sin that he said "I will delay no longer but judge now" (to paraphrase). That is a model of how I see it is going to happen for humanity as a whole, he is delaying to allow as many people as he can to change but he will not delay judgement indefinately.
Belief is much more than an intellectual assent or decision, it shapes our actions as well thus true biblical belief is also obedience. Look at this thread where I showed how belief/faith has the connottion of obedience. And what you have to understand is the core concept of the entire bible and that is the covenant concept. The titles of Old and New Testament are unfortunate for it literally means the Old and New Covenant. To enter into the new covenant in Jesus' blood one must accept Jesus' sacrifice and then walk accordingly in righteousness - in which God also as part of the stipulations of the new covenant promises to give us grace by which we can live up to that standard. Belief (faith) is integral because it is the method by which we recieve God's grace and then apply it in obedience.
God Bless,
~Josh
R
Rick W
Guest
Not believing Christ means they remain in their sin. To believe means sin will not be held against them.
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
A covenant is an agreement between parties, in this case between God and man. Do you agree with this covenant or not? Do you believe this is so? It's up to you if you want to join in agreement with God.
Romans is also one of the best books to read concerning this issue in my opinion. A lot is said about faith and sin, the above verse is quoted by Paul and you get insight for sin and this topic in general.
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
A covenant is an agreement between parties, in this case between God and man. Do you agree with this covenant or not? Do you believe this is so? It's up to you if you want to join in agreement with God.
Romans is also one of the best books to read concerning this issue in my opinion. A lot is said about faith and sin, the above verse is quoted by Paul and you get insight for sin and this topic in general.