Does Jesus Death cover ALL sins?

[Orion]

We are punished for much more then a bad decision, we are punished for the trespasses of our rebellion. I would challenge the thesis that our salvation is a reward for a correct decision. Salvation is not something earned by a correct decision. That is an interesting analogy of "free will" theology. Let me ask you a question.

No, . . . we are saved due to a decision and others are punished due to a "bad decision", that being the decision that Christianity isn't for them.

If the governor of my state has 10 death row inmates who deserve to die, and he pardoned 5, has the governor done anything unjust? We can discuss the justice of God more, but please answer that question.

So, we're supposed to use THIS example for what God does? Death of a body doesn't equate to billions of years of "death" in Hell.

Orion, you seem to be avoiding my question, were is Christianity wrong. You response is to ask a question that is so huge I would not know where to start. You ask where are all the other world religions are in error. Do you want me to tell you this in one short paragraph (just kidding). Although I did ask you where you see error in Christianity, and I guess you are telling me where. You dont believe Christian doctrine has a concept of a just and loving God.

I don't want to give what I'm talking about because it could cause someone to falter in their faith, and I won't be the cause of it, . . . if I'm wrong. I bare this burden by myself.

I think this is a complaint that if God somehow changes our nature, we cease to be human. Yet, Christ himself had both a divine nature and was fully human. The point is that a sinless future does not mean a lack of humanity.

There is more... A seed is planted in the ground. Did the seed change? Certainly, it germinates, and grows into a plant. Does the seed grow into a giant seed? No, it changes. Does this mean that neither a tomato seed or a full grown tomato are not genetically tomato? So will our resurrection be. As the seed, we are sown in corruption, but we are raised in incorruption. We are sown mortal, but we are raised to immortality. Yet we will still be human, we will still be ourselves, just better.

I'm not following your plant analogy. But anyway, if a sinless future does not mean a lack of humanity, then that should have been the creation all along. Then you would still have humans existing with no sins to be "paid for". No threat of "eternal damnation".

 

[mondar]

We are all sinners, yet due to an earthly decision, some are rewarded. The wrong decision causes eternal punishment. . . . . . . .for a decision!

I would challenge the thesis that our salvation is a reward for a correct decision.

No, . . . we are saved due to a decision and others are punished due to a "bad decision", that being the decision that Christianity isn't for them.

You speak as one with authority to speak for all Christians here. I recognize there are different beliefs on "free will," but my take on that issue is that I dont agree with it. So I take it I am not allows to speak for my own self on what I believe as a Christian? Orion, I may not speak for all Christians, but who are you to speak for all Christians?

I took issue with your concept that salvation is a "reward" for a right decision. The concept of salvation being earned by our faith would be opposed by many more Christians then just me. There are "free willers" on this BB that might agree that we deserve salvation because of a decision we made, but I am not one of them... OK?

This is not to say we dont have faith, but faith is a gift given to those whom God wishes to show his grace. In any case, lets please move on.

mondar wrote:
If the governor of my state has 10 death row inmates who deserve to die, and he pardoned 5, has the governor done anything unjust? We can discuss the justice of God more, but please answer that question.

So, we're supposed to use THIS example for what God does? Death of a body doesn't equate to billions of years of "death" in Hell.

By suggesting that I am equivocating spiritual death and physical death you avoid the point. The point is that if the governor is just in the case involving physical death, when then is God not also just in not choosing a certain group of people?

You seem to be saying (correct me if I am wrong) that the governor is just because it is mere physical death, but God is unjust because it is eternal suffering. If you are saying this, can you explain your principle of justice?

It seems to me that my proposition was that both the governor and God is just because all are guilty and to be just, neither the governor or God has to save anyone. You response seems to be to complain that the governor is just but with God, the punishment does not fit the crime?

Please explain, why are you implying that God is too harsh in judging mans rebellion? What moral basis do you have to imply that the punishment is too harsh. Or is this just something you make up yourself?

I'm not following your plant analogy. But anyway, if a sinless future does not mean a lack of humanity, then that should have been the creation all along. Then you would still have humans existing with no sins to be "paid for". No threat of "eternal damnation".

Heh, you make a good point in my favor that I did not even think about. The original state of man was actually sinless. Adam and Even were created without sin and they were human at that time. Of course after the fall, their behavior changed because they had chosen rebellion. You could say the image of God was marred in them, and certain things had changed. The process of death and decay had begun. So while certainly there was change, they did not become human after the fall, but were always human from creation.

The illustration of the seed is similar. An apple seed and an apple tree have the same genetics. Yet for the apple seed to become an apple tree certain changes occur. The seed is planted, and it changes. The seed does not become a giant seed as it grows, it changes from a seed to a tree (even though its genetics do not change--it is still apple genes). So the same is the resurrection of the dead. They are still human, but they are changed. This illustration from nature demonstrates that humans can change in death, and still be human. It is of course a borrowed argument from 1 Cor. 15.

You say it is impossible for man to change and still be man. Can you demonstrate logically why you know this is true? Or do you just assume your own idea that change cannot occur or we cease to be human?

 

[Orion]

You speak as one with authority to speak for all Christians here. I recognize there are different beliefs on "free will," but my take on that issue is that I dont agree with it. So I take it I am not allows to speak for my own self on what I believe as a Christian? Orion, I may not speak for all Christians, but who are you to speak for all Christians?

I took issue with your concept that salvation is a "reward" for a right decision. The concept of salvation being earned by our faith would be opposed by many more Christians then just me. There are "free willers" on this BB that might agree that we deserve salvation because of a decision we made, but I am not one of them... OK?

This is not to say we dont have faith, but faith is a gift given to those whom God wishes to show his grace. In any case, lets please move on.

But that IS the case in Christianity. We are all sinners and "deserve Hell" (something I don't agree with, by the way). When we make the choice to accept Christ into our lives (the decision), we are granted pardon for our sins and entrance into Heaven. That IS the core Christian doctrine, is it not?

By suggesting that I am equivocating spiritual death and physical death you avoid the point. The point is that if the governor is just in the case involving physical death, when then is God not also just in not choosing a certain group of people?

You seem to be saying (correct me if I am wrong) that the governor is just because it is mere physical death, but God is unjust because it is eternal suffering. If you are saying this, can you explain your principle of justice?

It seems to me that my proposition was that both the governor and God is just because all are guilty and to be just, neither the governor or God has to save anyone. You response seems to be to complain that the governor is just but with God, the punishment does not fit the crime?

Please explain, why are you implying that God is too harsh in judging mans rebellion? What moral basis do you have to imply that the punishment is too harsh. Or is this just something you make up yourself?

By "man's rebellion", you mean, "not making a decision to live for Christ", ultimately. The definition of "justice" (in terms of how the guilty are to be treated) is to be fair, have equity, upholding what is just, especially fair treatment. If a person told one white lie in all their life, . . . is it fair of them to be punished for it for billions of years with no means of acquittal? I would say, no! How can it be that I can see things that way when my compassion for people isn't supposed to be as righteous as God's? That's why I see many "man made characteristics" placed on God when perhaps God doesn't deserve them!

For the record, I'm not sure I agree with "the death penalty" at all. So that's why I didn't answer your question whether I would be okay with the pardoning of 5 out of 10 inmates.

Heh, you make a good point in my favor that I did not even think about. The original state of man was actually sinless. Adam and Even were created without sin and they were human at that time. Of course after the fall, their behavior changed because they had chosen rebellion. You could say the image of God was marred in them, and certain things had changed. The process of death and decay had begun. So while certainly there was change, they did not become human after the fall, but were always human from creation.

Every baby that is born is created sinless. However, it is in our nature to "be bad", unfortunately. To want what we don't have and to sometimes do morally wrong things to get it. The story of Adam and Eve is no different. Sure they were created "without sin" because they hadn't sinned yet. But they were created with the same failings as us. That's why it was so easy for a stupid snake to [again] so easily fool them.

So the same is the resurrection of the dead. They are still human, but they are changed. This illustration from nature demonstrates that humans can change in death, and still be human. It is of course a borrowed argument from 1 Cor. 15.

You say it is impossible for man to change and still be man. Can you demonstrate logically why you know this is true? Or do you just assume your own idea that change cannot occur or we cease to be human?

Of course I can't demonstrate what I say because no one knows what lies after death. However, I can make a valid assumption based upon what I have seen written in the Bible. If Heaven is a place devoid of temptation and sin, . . . why did a 3rd of angels fall? Why did they CHOOSE to deny God and the headship there, and follow another created being? What was their motive? How did Lucifer even come to the way of thinking in the first place? Isn't selfishness a sin? :-? From where did SATAN'S temptation come from to think he could rise above God?

In turn, what makes anyone think that we can "be sinless" just because we are in Heaven? And what would God have to do to US that he didn't do with those angels? Or . . . . is that story just something made up and has no grounds in reality? What would make more sense here? Something to think about.

 

[mondar]

By "man's rebellion", you mean, "not making a decision to live for Christ", ultimately. The definition of "justice" (in terms of how the guilty are to be treated) is to be fair, have equity, upholding what is just, especially fair treatment. If a person told one white lie in all their life, . . . is it fair of them to be punished for it for billions of years with no means of acquittal?

I perceive we have extremely different views of mankind. "A person told one white lie" is a fable. Such a person does not exist. I would say that the other extreme is far more accurate. A Stalin or Hitler lies in everyone of us. Give the power, few of us would do great things, rather would would become greatly destructive. Wars do not occur as flukes, but wars occur because the nature of man is to blow each other up. These suicide bombers are no flukes, the crime on the streets of America comes from the nature of man. We fight and quarrel, we hate and war, yet you think human nature is not in rebellion against God. You ask about that one hypothetical person who only told one white lie their whole life. You think man merely makes a wrong decision. We are not even talking about the same mankind.

I honestly dont care how many decisions are made to live for Christ. I dont believe many of those "decisions" are worth spit in the wind. Such decisions are often based upon emotionalism or sentamentality. Salvation begins with an understanding of the nature of man. It is a reconizition that not only are we all evil, but that I am evil and in rebellion against God. When we recognize our own moral failure, only then can faith come.

The deepness and richness that is called "faith" is not a shallow decision. It is not a frivolity that comes today and is gone tomorrow. It is not something that can even depart. It is something that depends on the omnipotence of God.

You ask "By "man's rebellion", you mean, "not making a decision to live for Christ."" No, thats not what I mean, and is not even the tip of the ice burg.

Every baby that is born is created sinless.

Babies will eventually sin, because they were born sinners. This is the whole point of Romans 5. Adam, as the federal head of the human race, let us all into sin. This has been the orthodox doctrine of the christian church for 2000 years. Search our creeds and statements and find out how we believe in original sin, or sin nature.

Of course I can't demonstrate what I say because no one knows what lies after death. However, I can make a valid assumption based upon what I have seen written in the Bible. If Heaven is a place devoid of temptation and sin, . . . why did a 3rd of angels fall? Why did they CHOOSE to deny God and the headship there, and follow another created being? What was their motive? How did Lucifer even come to the way of thinking in the first place? Isn't selfishness a sin? :-? From where did SATAN'S temptation come from to think he could rise above God?

In turn, what makes anyone think that we can "be sinless" just because we are in Heaven? And what would God have to do to US that he didn't do with those angels? Or . . . . is that story just something made up and has no grounds in reality? What would make more sense here? Something to think about.

sorry, gotta go, I dont have time to reply anymore right now, maybe later.

 

[Orion]

Okay, I will wait until you have more time. I am enjoying the debate.

By the way, and for what it's worth. . . if I had a LOT of power, I would be doing great things with it and definitely not doing things that would be "Hitler-esque". There is no Hitler or Stalin in my heart.

Blessings!

 

[mondar]

Orion, this paragraph was originally about can we still be human if we are changed. I just wanted to mention the context of our discussion here.

Of course I can't demonstrate what I say because no one knows what lies after death.

If a person died, and three days later he came back to life after death, he might be able to tell us a few things. Actually, if you looked up the plant analogy, you will see that our resurrection is based after the pattern of Christs resurrection. He was a "firstfruits" of the resurrection.

However, I can make a valid assumption based upon what I have seen written in the Bible. If Heaven is a place devoid of temptation and sin, . . . why did a 3rd of angels fall? Why did they CHOOSE to deny God and the headship there, and follow another created being? What was their motive? How did Lucifer even come to the way of thinking in the first place? Isn't selfishness a sin? :-? From where did SATAN'S temptation come from to think he could rise above God?

I can accept your point that heaven is not a place devoid of temptation. Actually, there are several places in the bible where the location of temptation is heaven. The book of Job has a cosmic conflict between God and Satan in heaven in which Job is tempted by Satan, and tested by God. Does this have anything to do with the proposition that mankind will loose his humanity if he is changed?

Satan's temptation must have come from within. Isaiah speaks of his pride, and denial of Gods sovereignty. Possibly the original state of angels was not confirmed in righteousness or rebellion. I dont know, the bible does not reveal everything to us.

In turn, what makes anyone think that we can "be sinless" just because we are in Heaven? And what would God have to do to US that he didn't do with those angels? Or . . . . is that story just something made up and has no grounds in reality? What would make more sense here? Something to think about.

The difference between humanity and the angels is that the righteous angels never fell under the power of sin. As you say, many angels were never guilty. On the other hand, all humanity became rebels against God in Adams sin. Of course Jesus became a man, and therefore became an acceptable substitute to pay the penalty. Jesus never became an angel to substitute for the fallen angels. It was this very sovereignty that Satan rebelled from. Satan wanted to have a throne like God and be like unto the most high. He tempted Adam and Eve with this same rebellion. He told them they could be "like Gods."

Along with the sinful rebellion of man, the sovereignty of God is a very important concept. I think your philosophy is consistent with most other unbelievers. The philosophy of unbeliever often boils down to a hatred of Gods sovereignty. We want to be in control.

By the way, and for what it's worth. . . if I had a LOT of power, I would be doing great things with it and definitely not doing things that would be "Hitler-esque". There is no Hitler or Stalin in my heart.

You have joined Satans rebellion quite well. I am sure Satan thought he would do great things too. Eve and Adam thought they were going to lead the race to become "like God." The sovereignty of man is a philosophy we might call humanism. The error of humanism is that it sees only virtue in man.

Yet we fight and war not only on a national level, but our streets are filled with crime. Mankind has always went to war, and we will continue to go to war. If you had power, you would lead us to war, if you did not, we would be destroyed by others. The end result of either choice would be death for someone. Why? Because we are rebels by nature.

One great difference I see between us, is our view of man. Your view is that man is fairly good, and you believe you are a moral person. Of course such a view will never see the need of a savior.

Did you ever watch planet of the Apes? I love those speeches by the Apes on the nature of man. The apes wax eloquent on the violence and evil nature of man. The astronauts go on trying to survive. Then finally comes that dramatic moment when the astronaut and the girl go riding up the beach toward the forbidden land and they come across the top of the statue of liberty sticking up out of the sand. The man cries and says "they finally did it." The story ends at this statue. The apes were right about man all along. Orion, we might avoid nuclear for 50 years, maybe 100 years, but that day will come when men will cry "we finally did it." There is no hope for man. We will certainly destroy ourselves. We are killers, and will continue to kill. You can claim some unique virtue for yourself, but I remain skeptical that there is any virtue in man anywhere.

 

[Orion]

:-? :-? :-? I have joined Satan's rebellion quite well??? :-? :-? :-?

And with that, I bid you "good day". I have nothing further to say to anyone who would judge me so. You don't know me but label me along the likes of war mongers.

:smt011

 

[beloved57]

Jesus death was only for the elect and he paid for all of their sins , past present and future..

They will not ever come into codemnation before God..ever..

 

[unred typo]

quote by beloved57:
Jesus death was only for the elect and he paid for all of their sins , past present and future..

They will not ever come into codemnation before God..ever..

Chapter/verse? You just made that up, didn‘t you? Thought so. You have your 'not's and your 'all's messed up. Here is what the Bible actually says about that:

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Notice: Justification is available to ALL mankind. The first ALL is the same as the second ALL.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Notice: the condition for justification is that those who are NOT condemned must walk after the Spirit and NOT after the flesh.

 

[beloved57]

Chapter/verse? You just made that up, didn‘t you? Thought so. You have your 'not's and your 'all's messed up. Here is what the Bible actually says about that:

You are ignorant to the scriptures , you dont need a chapter or verse you need a new birth..

 

[Drew]

Jesus death was only for the elect and he paid for all of their sins , past present and future..

They will not ever come into codemnation before God..ever..

What do you think Paul meant when he made this statement about what will take place on a coming day of judgement?

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Everybody! :D

Yes, not only did Jesus' willing sacrifice on that bloody Roman cross obliterate ALL sin (as proven by Jesus' resurrection), but it also cleansed and sanctified all creation including all mankind. However this does NOT mean all are automatically saved. Each person must decide to accept Jesus' completed work for themselves personally as righteous Abel, Abraham, and all the Jews coming out of Egypt did symbolically by their blood sacrifices to the Lord :o :
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Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the imaginary Beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hbr 9:25-26 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

(underlines, size and color emphasis are my own).
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Yes, Christ absolutely HAD to cleanse and sanctify the entire creation, including ALL mankind, right from the foundation of the world before the Father could even look upon it. Here's the situation of those who willingly reject their priceless gift of justification and sanctification ("the willingly unsaved"):
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Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (underline and color emphasis are my own).
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Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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