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Does Jesus Death cover ALL sins?

Thank you, cybershark, for your input.

Potluck said:
Not believing Christ means they remain in their sin. To believe means sin will not be held against them.

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

A covenant is an agreement between parties, in this case between God and man. Do you agree with this covenant or not? Do you believe this is so? It's up to you if you want to join in agreement with God.

Romans is also one of the best books to read concerning this issue in my opinion. A lot is said about faith and sin, the above verse is quoted by Paul and you get insight for sin and this topic in general.
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Much of what I will say is for either you or cybershark.

First, I already am in agreement with God in this covenant with Christ. I'm just trying to understand what it means when you have "the covering of all sin", yet only for those who believe, and the unbelieving aren't covered. So, then the answer SHOULD be that the Cross is sufficient to cover all sins, but doesn't until someone asked for it, ie. coming to believe in it for their salvation.
 
Orion said:
Thank you, cybershark, for your input.



Much of what I will say is for either you or cybershark.

First, I already am in agreement with God in this covenant with Christ. I'm just trying to understand what it means when you have "the covering of all sin", yet only for those who believe, and the unbelieving aren't covered. So, then the answer SHOULD be that the Cross is sufficient to cover all sins, but doesn't until someone asked for it, ie. coming to believe in it for their salvation.
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Perhaps you have missed it the previous two times I have posted it:

Christ's Death is SUFFICIENT for ALL, but EFFECIENT only to those who BELIEVE.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Perhaps you have missed it the previous two times I have posted it:

Christ's Death is SUFFICIENT for ALL, but EFFECIENT only to those who BELIEVE.
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What? Maybe you need to say it again. :-? :)
 
jgredline said:
It is the ''L'' in tulip
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Limited Atonement? Limited Atonement suggests that Jesus died only for the elect. It suggests that God set aside a limited amount of "souls" to be saved, we call them the Elect. Then, despite the "fact" that God predetermined who was to be saved, He still sent His Son, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, to die for the sins of those who have already been chosen for salvation.
 
Orion said:
I wasn't sure what "It is the ''L'' in tulip" meant.
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TULIP is an acronym in which each letter represents one of the five points of Calvinist doctrine.

At any rate what is it that you are still confused about? Jesus died not for the sake of a few but all men. Though even though he has made provision for all men not all will necessarily accept it. Just like there probably would have been plenty of room on Noah's ark for the men in the countryside, yet they didn't get on the boat with Noah. They didn't take advantage of what was already provided.

Does that help?

~Josh
 
While I understand what the ''L'' means, this is one of the areas of Calvinism, I have trouble with....While it is correct in saying that the Atonement that was provided by Jesus Christ blood is ''Limited'' to those who would accept it...it gives the impression that it was not sufficient for all...But as Vic said...It was enough for the elect....I just don't like the term...It cheapens what Christ really did....
 
Not sure if this should go here or under the Free Will thread:

Remember, God operates outside of our time restraints. While time is linear to us - it is not so to God. God is in the PAST, the PRESENT, and the FUTURE at all times.

Therefore, while God has foreknowledge of events that will happen, those whom will choose Him, etc - God "works" within our time restraints to bring about His will.

"Predestination" actually cheapens what God does and is not a suffecient term to encompass the magnificance of God.
 
I guess my problem is that even though it is sufficient, and that it covers all sins, a person's own limited beliefs (or limited lack of belief) doesn't constitute a sin, which is what God will not abide in. If all sins are paid for, it should be paid for, even for those who don't accept or believe it or IMO it cheapens the very work of Christ. In other words, all men are evil, they sin, and even though they may be in Christ, they still sin. Men who are not in Christ are evil, they sin. The sin sacrifice is enough to cover those in Christ and those who are not. So, again, it would seem that what causes a person to find themselves in Hell isn't sin, it is their disbelief.

If ALL that is evil is thrown into the lake of fire and there is no more evil left in the universe, . . . . will an unsaved person sin? If the answer is no, then it would seem that they are in Hell because "they don't want to be with God". Or so that is what WE (as Christians) believe, . . that they don't want any part of God. None of us knows the minds of even the person most close to us. I say that all this should be left up to God who will be a lot more neutral than any of us. All that to say, when standing in the presence of a Loving God, I doubt that there would be very many who would say, "Yeah, so. . . I'm out'a here!"

I personally don't believe that human words and understanding will be able to comprehend what will happen at that time.
 
I have not read the whole thread, but I see a patern of people saying you having to believe to enter Heaven. This is surely wrong - Satan believes in the existence of God, will he be in Heaven? I don't think it is the belief that means Christ payment clears your sins. It is accepting that He paid and is your Saviour.

If someone offered to pay your speeding fine, you could accept (therefore your punishment has been paid and you are free) or you can decline and attempt to pay it yourself. If you can't pay the fine you go to prison. Jesus offers the payment for all, the cheque is there. But you have to agree to Him paying your price. As you can't pay it yourself, if you don't let Jesus, you go to hell.
 
If all sins are paid for, it should be paid for, even for those who don't accept or believe it or IMO it cheapens the very work of Christ.
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Orion,

Here is an analogy:

"For all who come to my gig tonight, I will pay for their dinner."

Does that include everyone or does it only include those who come to my gig and take me up on my offer? Does that make me cheap or cheapen my offer at all? No, it doesn't.
 
I know that it is our doctrine that it is the belief of the person that grants them an eternal life in Heaven, and that it is offered by God. However, how about THIS analogy...

I'm an extremely wealthy person. Bill Gates would ask ME for a loan. One day I decide to put an end to the potential risk of global warming by creating a mechanism that will seal all ozone holes. I don't ask anyone else to help pay for it, but offer it as a gift for all people of the earth and for future generations to come.

Regardless of whether or not everyone believes in what I'm doing (thinking it is some sort of "blowing smoke"), it still benefits them.
 
dancing queen said:
I have not read the whole thread, but I see a patern of people saying you having to believe to enter Heaven. This is surely wrong - Satan believes in the existence of God, will he be in Heaven? I don't think it is the belief that means Christ payment clears your sins. It is accepting that He paid and is your Saviour.

If someone offered to pay your speeding fine, you could accept (therefore your punishment has been paid and you are free) or you can decline and attempt to pay it yourself. If you can't pay the fine you go to prison. Jesus offers the payment for all, the cheque is there. But you have to agree to Him paying your price. As you can't pay it yourself, if you don't let Jesus, you go to hell.
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Good point. Christs atonement did not pay the sins for demons, and they believe.

I agree with that statement, but I would like to add some thoughts about the Melchezedekian high priestly ministry of Christ. In the book of Hebrews Christ enters the holy place, he advocates and intercesses by offering his blood. For whom is Christ an advocate in Hebrews? Is this high priestly ministry of Christs blood for unbelievers? Is he an advocate for unbelievers? In hebrews, his blood clearly places people under the new covenant. Are unbelievers under the benefit of the New Covenant? If one says that they Christ blood does not apply to unbelievers, then is not the atonement limited in some way?
 
Orion said:
..I'm an extremely wealthy person. Bill Gates would ask ME for a loan. One day I decide to put an end to the potential risk of global warming by creating a mechanism that will seal all ozone holes. I don't ask anyone else to help pay for it, but offer it as a gift for all people of the earth and for future generations to come.

Regardless of whether or not everyone believes in what I'm doing (thinking it is some sort of "blowing smoke"), it still benefits them.
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In your scenario, do you provide a way for people who don't want your help to petition or collectively refuse your proposal? Do you provide provisions to stop those who have ulterior motives and want to sabotage your work?

Just wondering. 8-)
 
vic C. said:
In your scenario, do you provide a way for people who don't want your help to petition or collectively refuse your proposal? Do you provide provisions to stop those who have ulterior motives and want to sabotage your work?

Just wondering. 8-)
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In my scenario, they may try, but they would not be able to. The process would happen regardless of their complaints, motives, objections, or attempts at sabotage. It would happen.

The goal would be for them to come to the realization, at some point, that what I did was in their own best interest and that of their children. Only a fool or mentally deficient person would see it as a bad thing. Eventually, the results of the procedure would be known by all, and the 6:00 news would reveal the great benefits of the procedure to the world. And that it was all paid for out of my own pocket out of love for the human race.
 
Thanks for responding.

You said:

Only a fool or mentally deficient person would see it as a bad thing.
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I'm sorry to have to single that one line out, but it just sort of JUMPED out at me. :-D

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
(taken from Psalm 14:1
 
Yes, that is interesting. Yet, even still, the fool and mentally defective person would benefit as well. :wink:
 
I guess my problem is that even though it is sufficient, and that it covers all sins, a person's own limited beliefs (or limited lack of belief) doesn't constitute a sin, which is what God will not abide in. If all sins are paid for, it should be paid for, even for those who don't accept or believe it or IMO it cheapens the very work of Christ. In other words, all men are evil, they sin, and even though they may be in Christ, they still sin. Men who are not in Christ are evil, they sin. The sin sacrifice is enough to cover those in Christ and those who are not. So, again, it would seem that what causes a person to find themselves in Hell isn't sin, it is their disbelief.
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Orion,

Why would God want to have a relationship with someone who does not even love him in light of his love that he first showed us? God demonstrated his love for us by sending his son but those who do not reciprocate show contempt for God's plan in light of what God has done. God does not want to force anyone to love him, or it's not really a relationship at all. Christians have a reciprocating, grace dependant (granted), relationship with God. But those who will not follow Christ show no desire for atonement even after hearing that it exists. This is also IMO the basis for which God said "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated", Esau had a reckless attitude and sold his birth right just to satisfy himself for the moment. He could have cared less about the God-given rights of the firstborn that were rightfully his. I could say much more on this but I'll leave the point at that.

God doesn't have need to provide a coverall atonement for all wicked men to make them turn to himself (which would be no relationship at all), it is to be coupled with a willing response on our part.

~Josh
 
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