Does man have authority to forgive sins?

[Stan1953]

Welcome StanJ
I am not sure what Hermetical fashion is. Man's methods of understanding what is revealed by the Holy Spirit seems to fall way short into the land of unbelief.
So you understand the Laws of sowing and reaping. whoseover sows to the flesh must reap of the flesh, corruptions.
The context though is when Jesus went to heal. He asked is it more easy to forgive sin or to heal? So we are talking about forgiving someone's sin in connection with Healing.
Can someone sow sin and mess in their life, that causes them to reap of the flesh destruction?
If one of us Goes to God and asks for Mercy, Lord forgive them so no sin or devil is in the way so that they can be healed?
Did not James say the Prayer of faith Saves the sick, and if they committed any sin it's forgiven?
If we prayed for people, and God did not forgive, but what the people did remains on them. Then by right, the devil does have a place to destroy them. They have to fully reap what they have sown.
So what is harder? Say be healed in Jesus name, or Be forgiven, Have mercy on them God?

Thanks Mike, good to be here.
Hermeneutics /hɛrməˈnjuːtɪks/ is the theory of text interpretation, especially the interpretation of biblical texts.
I agree that we do indeed need the Holy Spirit, when properly rendering the written word, which is why Jesus said the Father sent Him. However there is a way to do that and a way not to. Saying the Holy Spirit told me without any kind of exegesis, IMO doesn't hold water.
IMO Paul clearly explains this in Gal 6 and it doesn't relate ONLY to the flesh, but to all things we do in our lives.
"Give and it shall be given to you" as Jesus taught in Luke 6:38 (NIV), is another example of that.
Yes, men sow in sin and reap the consequences thereof, both Christians and unbelievers.
Jesus knew what was at the basis of peoples sin and sickness, and was very aware of all that went on while He was on earth. It would be nice to think that all of us as His followers (Christians) could do this but the reality is we all CAN'T.
When Kathryn Kuhlman was well know, she said that when God told her to lay hands on someone because He was going to heal them, He DID, but when she just prayed for someone who asked here to, healing was on a hit and miss basis. We of course strive to be Christ LIKE, but in reality we are NOT Christ.

 

[Sparkey]

Add 1 John 5:16 to the ideas expressed here.

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life --to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

I like the analogy of the body where each cell needs all the others for nourishment and for waste removal. The blood circulates. We join in the ministry of Christ (our service to one another) as we pray. Especially as we pray like we pray for ourselves. It is His blood that is shared in this manner and it is our life.

But that's not all. There's a secret to be found in the writings of John but we have to read backwards a little to see it.
One second... processing... I'll fetch the verses and try to explain.

Two verses up:

And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.

What is His will? It doesn't take an idiot to figure that one out. God gave his Son so that we may be forgiven our sins.
/duh! Palm-to-Head Smack, right?

And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

Okay. Read 1 John 5:16 again. If we see our brother sinning --we are to ask --and God gives life.

How would you like to be able to say, "All of my prayers are answered!"

You've heard that the longest journey begins with the first step. But in this, our journey has already been traveled by Jesus and we are merely to follow. How? You already know. Love God first and most. Love others too and not just yourself. Pray according to His will.

 

[Brother Mike]

Jesus knew what was at the basis of peoples sin and sickness, and was very aware of all that went on while He was on earth. It would be nice to think that all of us as His followers (Christians) could do this but the reality is we all CAN'T.
When Kathryn Kuhlman was well know, she said that when God told her to lay hands on someone because He was going to heal them, He DID, but when she just prayed for someone who asked here to, healing was on a hit and miss basis. We of course strive to be Christ LIKE, but in reality we are NOT Christ

Well, only hit and miss if someone will receive the healing. Healing is not always instant, it takes some belief that we shall "RECOVER" as as mentioned in Mark 16
Every time God asked me to lay hands on someone, Bam, healed. God knows the situation, what they believe, and the right time. So of course if God directs, it works. It still don't mean we can't pray for others and believe God will help them.

I think your reading to much into what Jesus was saying though. Whosoever sins you remit are remitted. Don't remit them, then they keep the sin. As you said, Sin and sickness can go hand in hand. Jesus telling one go and sin no more lest a worse thing come on you.

Paul, Judging one that slept with his Fathers wife did not remit any sin. He turned that guy over to the devil to be destroyed, that He might repent and at least his spirit be saved. Beats going to hell, that is for sure. Thankfully the guy repented and made barley made it.

Sins........ StanJ................ What does Sins bring into someones life? It could destroy them. Your getting this mixed up with......

Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(Mar 16:16)

Jesus would not be talking about forgiving them of not believing on Jesus. We can't do that. Jesus did talk about us asking God to forgive them so they don't have to reap all they have sown. Stops the devil cold in his tracks.

Ever hear someone say, if it were not for the prayers of Grandma, I would be dead today? Well, they did not reap what they have sown, they gave God a right to forgive them. If there is no sin there, there is no harvest, and no place for the devil.

This is not going around imparting eternal life. Catholics do that. This is just asking the Lord to give someone more time and grace to get things turned around.

Blessings.

 

[Stan1953]

Well, only hit and miss if someone will receive the healing. Healing is not always instant, it takes some belief that we shall "RECOVER" as as mentioned in Mark 16
Every time God asked me to lay hands on someone, Bam, healed. God knows the situation, what they believe, and the right time. So of course if God directs, it works. It still don't mean we can't pray for others and believe God will help them.

You're right, healing is NOT always instant and healing is NOT always. Paul wasn't healed of his thorn in the flesh and I have never been healed of my diabetes. As Paul said; 2 Cor 4:7 (NIV)
That would bring up another issue, which I won't go off topic for, except to say I don't believe in blab it and grab it healing. James says the prayer of faith will heal; the sick so if the person praying does not have the faith that a healing WILL occur then they don't and it won't, plain and simple. I agree that prayer is always useful, as James 5:16 teaches.

I think your reading to much into what Jesus was saying though. Whosoever sins you remit are remitted. Don't remit them, then they keep the sin. As you said, Sin and sickness can go hand in hand. Jesus telling one go and sin no more lest a worse thing come on you.

Sorry? What am I reading into this?

Paul, Judging one that slept with his Fathers wife did not remit any sin. He turned that guy over to the devil to be destroyed, that He might repent and at least his spirit be saved. Beats going to hell, that is for sure. Thankfully the guy repented and made barley made it.

1 Cor 5 is about church polity and how we cannot allow sinful lifestyle to pollute it. Not quite the same as committing occasional sin.

Sins........ StanJ................ What does Sins bring into someones life? It could destroy them. Your getting this mixed up with......
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(Mar 16:16)
Jesus would not be talking about forgiving them of not believing on Jesus. We can't do that. Jesus did talk about us asking God to forgive them so they don't have to reap all they have sown. Stops the devil cold in his tracks.

Yes, sin CAN destroy us if we don't address it in our lives. Not seeing what John 16:9 or Mark 16:16 has to do with this though?

Ever hear someone say, if it were not for the prayers of Grandma, I would be dead today? Well, they did not reap what they have sown, they gave God a right to forgive them. If there is no sin there, there is no harvest, and no place for the devil.
This is not going around imparting eternal life. Catholics do that. This is just asking the Lord to give someone more time and grace to get things turned around.
Blessings.

In context, reaping has to do with life usually. Some times it refers to dying permanently. There is no doubt God's mercy has actually delayed Jesus' return, as Peter states in 2 Peter 3:9

 

[Brother Mike]

Sorry? What am I reading into this?

Just that when Jesus said we can remit sins, it was nothing earth shattering past giving a person time from having to reap what they have sown. Even Jesus saying about the tree, they was going to cut it down, and Jesus said give it more dung, give it a chance, wait a year and see if it will produce fruit.

God's Mercy=what people don't deserve.

Speaking about the wall, Jesus asked do you suppose they committed more sin than the others? he then said, lest you repent the same can happen to you.

those that don't know God, Eph says they are without hope, without God in this World. They can be killed at any time, or make it any time. God is not there. We can go on their behalf and pray for them. I believe prayer works mighty in giving people help and more time to get things turned around.

You're right, healing is NOT always instant and healing is NOT always. Paul wasn't healed of his thorn in the flesh and I have never been healed of my diabetes. As Paul said; 2 Cor 4:7 (NIV)

I look at "Pauls" thorn a bit different. You say you never been healed of Diabetes. Certainly dealing with something year after year you just don't turn that around and believe different. It's sown into you.

What if, You examined all the scriptures..... "by his stripes we ARE healed" "He HAS given us all things that pertain to life by his divine power." We HAVE been blessed with all spiritual blessings in Heavenly places." Believe that you receive then You shall have it."

What if we turned that around and started saying instead I am the Healed, My Blood sugar is fine according to what the Word says. God perfecting all things concerning me. (Psalm 138:8) What if we start saying that for the next 10 years instead?

The Word must produce what God said it would. I count on that, or I have nothing to help anyone.

You speak the Word only, 10 years from now you might be sitting, doing nothing and suddenly a light comes on. I am healed of this, I can't have this. It's so real, that it's a fact. It's how it works.

Be blessed. Welcome again, glad you joined us.

 

[Stan1953]

Just that when Jesus said we can remit sins, it was nothing earth shattering past giving a person time from having to reap what they have sown. Even Jesus saying about the tree, they was going to cut it down, and Jesus said give it more dung, give it a chance, wait a year and see if it will produce fruit.
God's Mercy=what people don't deserve.

I prefer to use the modern English as opposed to KJV vernacular. IMO the NIV renders it well as 'forgive'. Contrary to what the RCC tries to teach, this verse is NOT their authority to hear confessions and forgive sins. Paul dealt with a similar issue about sin in 1 Cor 5 and instructed that person was to be cast out because their sin was not being repented of. In that case it was NOT forgiven because of the lack of repentance as well. I'm not really sure what else you are seeing here?

Speaking about the wall, Jesus asked do you suppose they committed more sin than the others? he then said, lest you repent the same can happen to you.
those that don't know God, Eph says they are without hope, without God in this World. They can be killed at any time, or make it any time. God is not there. We can go on their behalf and pray for them. I believe prayer works mighty in giving people help and more time to get things turned around.

You've lost me now...what wall are you talking about?

I look at "Pauls" thorn a bit different. You say you never been healed of Diabetes. Certainly dealing with something year after year you just don't turn that around and believe different. It's sown into you.

I have no problem believing God can heal, I just don't find evidence in scripture that He wants ALL to be healed. Even in Revelation the Tree of Life is to heal those who do get sick.
Paul said; "I was given a thorn in my flesh", and I see nothing to indicate this was not a physical affliction, In other spots Paul addresses the affliction and makes it clear as to what it was.

What if, You examined all the scriptures..... "by his stripes we ARE healed" "He HAS given us all things that pertain to life by his divine power." We HAVE been blessed with all spiritual blessings in Heavenly places." Believe that you receive then You shall have it."

Your reference to Isaiah 53:5 is about reconciliation with God, not physical healing. Once we accept Jesus as savior, the void between us and God is mended/healed.

What if we turned that around and started saying instead I am the Healed, My Blood sugar is fine according to what the Word says. God perfecting all things concerning me. (Psalm 138:8) What if we start saying that for the next 10 years instead?

My blood sugar is fine when my meter says it is. I don't have to convince myself of God's healing powers or abilities, His word does that for me. All I have to do is accept it, if and when He provides it. Again the verse you refer to is NOT for physical healing.

The Word must produce what God said it would. I count on that, or I have nothing to help anyone.

It does, ALWAYS. Is 55:11...I just don't assume things not in evidence. The Bible says test EVERY spirit.

You speak the Word only, 10 years from now you might be sitting, doing nothing and suddenly a light comes on. I am healed of this, I can't have this. It's so real, that it's a fact. It's how it works.

Sorry Mike, but I don't accept that God works that way. He says what He means and He means what He says. IF He says I am healed them I am and if I am not then I am not. It is NOT a matter of forcing God's hand.

James 4:15
Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.”

 

[Brother Mike]

When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
(Mat 8:16-17)

That must have been spiritual healing then when the Holy Spirit interpreted the scripture in Isa then by example. My fault. I guess I missed that.
Since them folks were spiritually healed, they did not have to wait for Jesus to go to the cross. I learn new stuff on here every day.

Sorry to bother you with all that, I should have studied out things a bit better.

Be blessed and Welcome again.

 

[Stan1953]

No bother Mike, that is why we discuss...I hope.

 

[Brother Mike]

No bother Mike, that is why we discuss...I hope.

Well StanJ, I don't mind discussing things.

 

[Deborah13]

Jesus did talk about us asking God to forgive them so they don't have to reap all they have sown. Stops the devil cold in his tracks.

I think this is a true statement. We don't have the authority to declare that God has forgiven someone but we can ask God to forgive them.
Unless of coarse we are declaring the Gospel message of repentance or other scriptures about repentance.

 

[Brother Mike]

I think this is a true statement. We don't have the authority to declare that God has forgiven someone but we can ask God to forgive them.
Unless of coarse we are declaring the Gospel message of repentance or other scriptures about repentance.

Stephan ask the Lord to forgive them, I can promise not one of them, Even Paul who gave the Order to murder one of God's children was it ever mentioned to them again or accounted against them.

We as believers have the authority as part of the body of Jesus the Head to forgive sin, so that a person does not face all those consequences of their sins.
The problem is, people don't understand that sin and disobedience kills now in this time. They don't understand that if a devil has a place to kill someone he will.

We can step in, and ask God for mercy and to forgive them. Give them some more time.

Now the devil comes back, and legally he has no right to do what He had a place to do.

The only way the devil can get to someone is if He has a place to get them. The devil has to obey God's Word also, He just don't get around spiritual laws.

The only sin a person goes to hell on is not believing in Jesus Christ. That is not a sin we forgive, that is a choice they have to make. Adultery kills, leads to the path of hell according to Proverbs. That is a sin we can ask God to have patience as part of the body of Christ, doing His will, His work. Give them time to see it Lord, Have mercy.

I sometimes wonder if people forget that we are the body of Christ, that the head in itself can do nothing without the Body. The hand does not function as well without the Leg.

 

[Deborah13]

We as believers have the authority as part of the body of Jesus the Head to forgive sin,

no

We can step in, and ask God for mercy and to forgive them.

yes

The man who was sleeping with his father's wife. What Paul said the church had the authority to do was excommunicate him from the church because a little leaven leavens the whole batch. Hopefully the man would repent because of the church discipline. He did. There is nowhere here that I remember Paul mentioning anything about forgiving sins that would effect the man's salvation.
Outside the church is the world (satan). Denying him acceptance in the church was to cause him to reconsider what he was doing. Then they could forgive his behavior and allow him back into their assembly. But this has absolutely nothing to do with them forgiving his sin, in place of God forgiving his sin. He had to repent to God first.

I imagine that what the church looked like then was very different than most churches of today. It was a very tightly knit community. Today this same man, in most communities, could get kicked out of one church and walk down the street into another church and no one would be the wiser.

 

[Brother Mike]

no

So you going to God on someones behalf to ask him to forgive them, gets ignored?

There is nowhere here that I remember Paul mentioning anything about forgiving sins that would effect the man's salvation.

I never mentioned a Word about salvation.

The prayer of faith saves the sick, and if there are sins they are also forgiven. (James)

So what's the difference saying, be healed in Jesus name, than be forgiven in Jesus name?

Jesus asked the same question. Which is harder.

Jesus said to the man, go sin no more, least something worse happens to you. Sin and sickness are tied together as Forgiveness and healing are tied together.

Nobody gets judged on the sins we have authority to ask God to forgive anyway. They get judged for not making Jesus Lord, something they have to decided.

Paul did not remit the sins of the man who slept with his Fathers Wife. He turned him over to be destroyed by Satan.

We need to be led in all things, but that should go without saying.

 

[Deborah13]

So you going to God on someones behalf to ask him to forgive them, gets ignored?

Michael, go back and read your words that I quoted. If I didn't like you so well I would have the rolling pin in my hand.
"Brother Mike said: ↑

We as believers have the authority as part of the body of Jesus the Head to forgive sin,"
I said 'no'.
"Brother Mike said: ↑

We can step in, and ask God for mercy and to forgive them."
I said, yes.

So how in the world did you get "ignore going to God to ask Him to forgive them, when I said 'yes' to asking God to forgive them?
Sheesh.............

 

[Brother Mike]

Michael, go back and read your words that I quoted. If I didn't like you so well I would have the rolling pin in my hand.

I think Reba is starting to rub off on you......... Yikes!!!!!!

I am looking at it from a perspective that ........

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
(Rom 5:14)
Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

2Co_5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
(Joh 8:15)

Joh_12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

So, if Jesus our head is not judging, but sin people commit brings the curse and death from the law. If Sin that is killing folks in this present evil World because of sin that is not even imputed on a person but by the place of the curse and enemy.

Then why it be a hard thing to say Be forgive, devil get out of here. If I am working for the Lord, and doing what he said?

The Lord is not holding any sin they commit against them anyway. The sin has to be removed or the devil still has a right to get them.

That is how I am looking at it. From what the curse brings.

Be blessed.

 

[Stan1953]

I think what Jesus is told in Mark 2:7 (NIV) and Luke 5:21 (NIV), shows that only God can forgive sin. AS God, Jesus was able to but the only other form of forgiveness is when people sin against us and we ask God to not hold it against them. That is when it is forgiven them, because as believers, we ask.

 

[Stan1953]

So you going to God on someones behalf to ask him to forgive them, gets ignored?

Not necessarily, but again one can only ask for forgiveness if that sin effects them, as they have a personal stake in the sin. Otherwise it is between God and the sinner.

 

[Brother Mike]

Not necessarily, but again one can only ask for forgiveness if that sin effects them, as they have a personal stake in the sin. Otherwise it is between God and the sinner.

What sin could (The UnSAVED) they be committing that God would have an issue with though?

Even if we forgive a believer, it's no indication they are OK with God.

 

[Stan1953]

What sin could (The UnSAVED) they be committing that God would have an issue with though?
Even if we forgive a believer, it's no indication they are OK with God.

I make a distinction between unsaved and unbelievers. The Pharisees were unsaved so when they came close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit, Jesus addressed it. If a believer sinned against me in any way and I forgave them, that sin is forgiven. In John 20, Jesus is talking to His disciples and the existing body of believers, post resurrection, so it is within that context that we must understand His exhortation and instructions.

 

[Brother Mike]

If a believer sinned against me in any way and I forgave them, that sin is forgiven.

Your a Pastor at a church, I am working with you and you and the other waiting on me "AGAIN" I had some supplies and when I finally show up, you find that I bought something different than what you asked. I was also late because I just slept in and had to stop at Mcdonalds to grab something to eat and the line was long.

I look at everyone, and say. Forgive me guys, I just was running late. ya, I thought I would buy this instead, I thought it would work better.

You tell me, It's OK Brother, we forgive you. You spent money in a way I did not want that belong to the church and my care. Even though what you bought would work, it's not what I had in mind.

I say, I am really sorry, and you say it's OK, don't worry about it.

Is God OK With me being unfaithful in Helping you as he told me to do?