Does salvation automatically equate to 'knowing' God?

[Jethro Bodine]

Since the obedience of love is the measure of 'knowing' God, it would stand to reason that since we have to grow up into the obedience of loving others that perhaps not knowing God doesn't have to necessarily mean we have not come to salvation in the forgiveness of our sins.


This has bugged me for years:

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." (1 John 4:7-9 NASB)

We like to equate 'knowing God' with 'having been saved by God', but If we make this a categorically applicable statement that if you do not 'know' God then you are not saved then many among us in this forum, as evidenced by our behavior toward one another, are simply not saved. I see it quite possible that one can be saved and yet not 'know' God.

I personally did not start out in the kingdom loving as I should. I had to be educated about how to do that, and had to grow up into that love (which I'm still doing). But I'm 100% sure I've been saved all along. It makes me think that we've made a mistake in assigning the 'knowing' of God to salvation itself, instead of assigning the 'knowing of God' to that of having come into an understanding of God's love that saved us and then showing the evidence of that 'knowing' by returning that love to God through the keeping of the command to love others.

What do you think?

 

[reba]

I think we agree We dont know some one the day we meet..... We grow in knowing Him...

 

[WIP]

I also think old habits die hard. Our sinful, bullish, arrogant ways show up even after we are saved. I think this is evident in Paul ' s letter to the Romans, chapter 7.

 

[Deborah13]

Sounds like the process of sanctification to me.

 

[Andrew Mason]

Is knowledge and faith in the "way of salvation" equate to "knowledge of God?"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is knowledge and faith in the "way of salvation" equate to "knowledge of God?"

Yes.

But do they equate to 'knowing' God? .

I'm suggesting that knowledge of God, even if it is salvic, is still not 'knowing' God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Since the obedience of love is the measure of 'knowing' God, it would stand to reason that since we have to grow up into the obedience of loving others that perhaps not knowing God doesn't have to necessarily mean we have not come to salvation in the forgiveness of our sins.


This has bugged me for years:

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." (1 John 4:7-9 NASB)

We like to equate 'knowing God' with 'having been saved by God', but If we make this a categorically applicable statement that if you do not 'know' God then you are not saved then many among us in this forum, as evidenced by our behavior toward one another, are simply not saved. I see it quite possible that one can be saved and yet not 'know' God.

I personally did not start out in the kingdom loving as I should. I had to be educated about how to do that, and had to grow up into that love (which I'm still doing). But I'm 100% sure I've been saved all along. It makes me think that we've made a mistake in assigning the 'knowing' of God to salvation itself, instead of assigning the 'knowing of God' to that of having come into an understanding of God's love that saved us and then showing the evidence of that 'knowing' by returning that love to God through the keeping of the command to love others.

What do you think?

I concur.
You have answered your own question quite accurately.
I think the problem we may have is assuming what others believe.

I, for one, believe in OSAS far more than I can explain it.

When push comes to shove, I just fall back on my faith in Jesus Christ and let everyone else figure things out for themselves.
Knowing God is a growth process and will eventually bring us into a relationship with him that we cannot explain until we get there.

 

[TOG]

I think we can "know God" to varying degrees, just as we can know each other to varying degrees. Imagine if you meet a man for the first time and you introduce yourselves to each other and talk together for a few minutes. After that you can say that you know him, but you don't know him to the extent that you will after you've known each other for a few years. When God "introduces Himself" to us when we are saved, we can say that we "know God", but over time, we will (hopefully) get to know Him a lot better.

The TOG​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think we can "know God" to varying degrees, just as we can know each other to varying degrees. Imagine if you meet a man for the first time and you introduce yourselves to each other and talk together for a few minutes. After that you can say that you know him, but you don't know him to the extent that you will after you've known each other for a few years. When God "introduces Himself" to us when we are saved, we can say that we "know God", but over time, we will (hopefully) get to know Him a lot better.

The TOG​

While I understand and agree with your point about this growth in knowing God (sanctification, as Deborah points out), I wonder if it's really accurate to call what we start out in as 'knowing' God? Biblically, knowing God seems to have a certain connotation about it that suggests growth and maturity. Maybe this is what Paul was getting at when he said this to the Galatians:

"9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God..." (Galatians 4:9 NASB)

He seems to be saying that when we come to salvation God knows us. But as we grow into that salvation God not only knows us, but we come to know God. The mature fruit of the Spirit (love) being the evidence of that knowing.

26 “The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; 27 ...the seed sprouts and grows... 28 ...first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head." (Mark 4:26-28 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I, for one, believe in OSAS far more than I can explain it.

You must be thinking of what Jesus said about him not knowing those who claimed to know him at the Judgment:

"23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’" (Matthew 7:23 NASB)

The point being, even though they may 'spouted' in salvation, and God knew them in that sense, they never matured into having an intimate, knowing, relationship with God, and thus were turned away from the kingdom 'on that day' as being unknown by the King. Which kind of fits with what he said in the parable of the sower:

13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
"14 The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15 But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance." (Luke 8:13-15 NASB)

Again, the fruit being the evidence of one's perseverance and growing up into knowing God.

I
When push comes to shove, I just fall back on my faith in Jesus Christ and let everyone else figure things out for themselves.

Yes, that's the right thing to do. You have faith, therefore, your future is secure because of that faith. But as you say, "the problem we may have is assuming what others believe". We can't tell people who don't have your strong faith that they also have the security of a strong faith.

 

[agua.]

I think there's another thing we need to consider. Someone may know Yahweh and His ways very well and still fail in the area of love. Unfortunately we still have the flesh to contend with atm. For instance I think David knew Yahweh very well but fell into an unloving action. I suppose what I mean is knowing God doesn't magically impute perfect love; we need to practice and examine this daily.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Someone may know Yahweh and His ways very well and still fail in the area of love. Unfortunately we still have the flesh to contend with atm.

Which is my point.

The Bible says we don't know the Lord until we move toward the perfection of love. Until then, we don't know God, but can still be very much saved. Staying there in that 'not knowing God' place because of laziness, neglect, or unbelief seems to be the problem.

For instance I think David knew Yahweh very well but fell into an unloving action.

Reminds me of Job, too. It wasn't until he got pummeled by the Devil and came under the heavy hand of God's scrutiny that he then said, "My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you (Job 42:5 NIV)". But we have no doubt that Job had a 'saving' relationship with God before this. And that is my point. Salvation doesn't mean we 'know' God at all. That's something we grow up into...if we do.

 

[JLB]

The New Covenant was designed by God for each of those who chose to be a part of it, to know God.

... for they all shall know Me.

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34

This is balanced in the words that John wrote -

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

and again -

27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.


If the Spirit of God dwells in you, then you know God, to some degree.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3


The more I know Him, the more I have a desire to do what He says.

To Love Him and love His children.


JLB

 

[agua.]

Which is my point.

The Bible says we don't know the Lord until we move toward the perfection of love. Until then, we don't know God, but can still be very much saved. Staying there in that 'not knowing God' place because of laziness, neglect, or unbelief seems to be the problem.


Reminds me of Job, too. It wasn't until he got pummeled by the Devil and came under the heavy hand of God's scrutiny that he then said, "My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you (Job 42:5 NIV)". But we have no doubt that Job had a 'saving' relationship with God before this. And that is my point. Salvation doesn't mean we 'know' God at all. That's something we grow up into...if we do.

Ok so you suggest David didn't know Yahweh at least up to the time of being disciplined for killing Uriah and pinching his wife ? This is interesting because I'm not sure anyone has been presented in scripture as knowing Yahweh in the sense you're presenting. Maybe Enoch or Samuel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ok so you suggest David didn't know Yahweh at least up to the time of being disciplined for killing Uriah and pinching his wife ?

I don't know. But I bet he knew him in a new and better way after God forgave him for murder and adultery.

This is interesting because I'm not sure anyone has been presented in scripture as knowing Yahweh in the sense you're presenting. Maybe Enoch or Samuel.

You mean coming to know God in the way John is talking about above and beyond simply being acquainted with him?

Thundering John himself, and Wimpy Simon are two good examples.

 

[Deborah13]

It appears that obeying God perfectly does not equate to knowing Him either.
Just ask Job.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It appears that obeying God perfectly does not equate to knowing Him either.
Just ask Job.

Right, works do not bring us into intimacy with God.

The grace of God's forgiveness does that. John explains that this 'knowing', this intimacy with God, is evidenced by our obedience, not dictated by it.

"By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments." (1 John 2:3 NASB)

 

[Randy]

Since the obedience of love is the measure of 'knowing' God, it would stand to reason that since we have to grow up into the obedience of loving others that perhaps not knowing God doesn't have to necessarily mean we have not come to salvation in the forgiveness of our sins.


This has bugged me for years:

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." (1 John 4:7-9 NASB)

We like to equate 'knowing God' with 'having been saved by God', but If we make this a categorically applicable statement that if you do not 'know' God then you are not saved then many among us in this forum, as evidenced by our behavior toward one another, are simply not saved. I see it quite possible that one can be saved and yet not 'know' God.

I personally did not start out in the kingdom loving as I should. I had to be educated about how to do that, and had to grow up into that love (which I'm still doing). But I'm 100% sure I've been saved all along. It makes me think that we've made a mistake in assigning the 'knowing' of God to salvation itself, instead of assigning the 'knowing of God' to that of having come into an understanding of God's love that saved us and then showing the evidence of that 'knowing' by returning that love to God through the keeping of the command to love others.

What do you think?

A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. John is stating that context. The mark of perfection that Jesus taught is to be like our heavenly Father. John knew Jesus stated "and this is eternal life, that they may know you, the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." If one listens and learns from the Father they go to the Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness of Jesus as Lord and Christ. Vs the Spirit of the anti christ in this world that denies Jesus. Now if one still hates etc... that is proof they don't know God who is called "Love" by John. Indeed God first loved us. God so loved the world...

Show us the Father, Jesus answered if you have seen the Son you have seen the Father. The Father is in the Son. Likewise Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. The kingdom of God is within. How can one who has the Spirit of Christ in them not "know" Jesus lives? Those that walk in the light remain in Him. (Jesus).

Sanctification is seen tied to one born of the Spirit as in the one who is born again will not continue to sin. That does't take away from a righteousness by faith in Jesus. Its just proof one whom proclaims faith in Jesus has a sincere faith and Love for God. (belongs to Jesus)





Randy

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Since the obedience of love is the measure of 'knowing' God, it would stand to reason that since we have to grow up into the obedience of loving others that perhaps not knowing God doesn't have to necessarily mean we have not come to salvation in the forgiveness of our sins.


This has bugged me for years:

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." (1 John 4:7-9 NASB)

We like to equate 'knowing God' with 'having been saved by God', but If we make this a categorically applicable statement that if you do not 'know' God then you are not saved then many among us in this forum, as evidenced by our behavior toward one another, are simply not saved. I see it quite possible that one can be saved and yet not 'know' God.

I personally did not start out in the kingdom loving as I should. I had to be educated about how to do that, and had to grow up into that love (which I'm still doing). But I'm 100% sure I've been saved all along. It makes me think that we've made a mistake in assigning the 'knowing' of God to salvation itself, instead of assigning the 'knowing of God' to that of having come into an understanding of God's love that saved us and then showing the evidence of that 'knowing' by returning that love to God through the keeping of the command to love others.

What do you think?

The purpose of John's Epistle was so that the believer would know that they have eternal life in Christ. There is simply no reading of the entire context of 1 John 4 that the person who does not love is a saved person. The person who does not love the brothers has not been born of God and therefore cannot be saved.

Knowing God is an evidence and consequence of being saved, and there is no such thing as salvation without a relationship being established in faith and repentance, which leads to a life of constant sanctification, which would explain why we don't love perfectly.

John often uses the present participle to demonstrate habitual behavior, the Greek word he uses for "loves" in 1 John 4:7 is ἀγαπῶν, the present participle, which speaks more to the type of behavior of love where a person makes a habit of it. Not that every person who loves period is born of God and knows God, but the person in whom it can be consistently evidenced.

So the question we should ask ourselves after reading 1 John is this... what does our character demonstrate, is there active growth towards godliness and a cultivating of habits of love and a rejection of lawlessness? For the one who does not know God has not been born of God.

Be wary of this line of thinking..

 

[for_his_glory]

Luke 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

I believe all of us have come to Christ as a child with very little knowledge, but once we come we grow in the knowledge of Gods mercy and grace that leads us to knowing the love he has for us and the love we need to have for others.