Does salvation automatically equate to 'knowing' God?

[Jethro Bodine]

The purpose of John's Epistle was so that the believer would know that they have eternal life in Christ. There is simply no reading of the entire context of 1 John 4 that the person who does not love is a saved person. The person who does not love the brothers has not been born of God and therefore cannot be saved.

Knowing God is an evidence and consequence of being saved, and there is no such thing as salvation without a relationship being established in faith and repentance, which leads to a life of constant sanctification, which would explain why we don't love perfectly.

John often uses the present participle to demonstrate habitual behavior, the Greek word he uses for "loves" in 1 John 4:7 is ἀγαπῶν, the present participle, which speaks more to the type of behavior of love where a person makes a habit of it. Not that every person who loves period is born of God and knows God, but the person in whom it can be consistently evidenced.

So the question we should ask ourselves after reading 1 John is this... what does our character demonstrate, is there active growth towards godliness and a cultivating of habits of love and a rejection of lawlessness? For the one who does not know God has not been born of God.

Be wary of this line of thinking..

In the first few months after being saved, I called the 700 Club counseling line because I could not love people. They told me I needed to get the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But it sounds like you're saying what I needed to do was get born again.

I assure you I was very much born again prior to and during this struggle with loving others. As it turned out, what I needed was to be educated about godly, Biblical love. Then I came to the point where I knew God, not just knew about him and his salvation, even though his salvation was very much mine before I knew him in this way that John talks about.

I did not know God the way John talks about, but I was in fact saved. In hindsight this has made me realize that being saved does not categorically equate to knowing God. But I am in agreement with what you said about John saying it is the lifestyle of love that shows if you know God or not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...once we come we grow in the knowledge of Gods mercy and grace that leads us to knowing the love he has for us and the love we need to have for others.

"12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God..." (1 Corinthians 2:12 NASB)

 

[Randy]

Luke 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

I believe all of us have come to Christ as a child with very little knowledge, but once we come we grow in the knowledge of Gods mercy and grace that leads us to knowing the love he has for us and the love we need to have for others.

by "Faith"

 

[Doulos Iesou]

In the first few months after being saved, I called the 700 Club counseling line because I could not love people. They told me I needed to get the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But it sounds like you're saying what I needed to do was get born again.

I assure you I was very much born again prior to and during this struggle with loving others. As it turned out, what I needed was to be educated about godly, Biblical love. Then I came to the point where I knew God, not just knew about him and his salvation, even though his salvation was very much mine before I knew him in this way that John talks about.

I did not know God the way John talks about, but I was in fact saved. In hindsight this has made me realize that being saved does not categorically equate to knowing God. But I am in agreement with what you said about John saying it is the lifestyle of love that shows if you know God or not.

No, I would say you needed to mature in Christ. Your desires had changed, and you obviously had a strong desire to love but feel you could not do it.

God had already begun his work in you, and you came to love deeper and know him on a deeper level.

There is however as I have already pointed out that the text of 1 John cannot be interpreted to mean that there are people who are born again who don't know God. The New Covenant is such that we all know God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is however as I have already pointed out that the text of 1 John cannot be interpreted to mean that there are people who are born again who don't know God.

But what you're saying contradicts that. You say I came to know him on a deeper level after being saved.

Since John qualifies 'knowing' as loving others, I did not 'know' God in the first couple of years of my salvation. That's the point I'm making. The conclusion being, you can not equate 'knowing' with salvation. But that is exactly what the church believes.

People who know God are most certainly saved--their love being the evidence of that knowing. But being saved does not automatically equate to knowing God (and, therefore, being known by him, in that sense).

A lot of immature Christians (immature as evidenced by their behavior) claim to 'know' God because they are saved (because they equate the two). But the truth is, they may be saved, but they have not grown up into 'knowing' God.

Many people seem to be content with just being saved, not knowing that they have yet to 'know' God. And they take false comfort in that salvation, not knowing that God requires each of us to also continue in faith and grow up into him. The growth of 'knowing' is how we know we are continuing in our faith in Christ.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

But what you're saying contradicts that. You say I came to know him on a deeper level after being saved.

No it doesn't, please listen closely.

Since John qualifies 'knowing' as loving others, I did not 'know' God in the first couple of years of my salvation.

No, John says that if you know God, you will love people. He also says that those who are born again love people and love God. Since the purpose of this text is to provide some kind of grounding for whether or not a person is born again, we can conclude that a person who is not cultivating the habitual behavior of love, does not know God and is not born again.

Other texts in the Bible emphasize the necessity to mature in Christ and that the sanctification process isn't fully complete, but it is a struggle towards the goal.

That's the point I'm making. The conclusion being, you can not equate 'knowing' with salvation. But that is exactly what the church believes.

Anyone who is saved knows God, it is very clear in Scripture.

As JLB pointed out, the New Covenant ensures this will be so as it speaks of the New Covenant in Jeremiah where it says, "and they shall all know God."

By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:10 (ESV)

If you do not love God, or love the brothers you are not a child of God, and therefore not saved.

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. 1 John 3:14 (ESV)

If you lack the type of love that John is talking about, or at least are not in the process of cultivating that, i.e. having the desire growing in you to have it.. then according to John you do not have life.

People who know God are most certainly saved--their love being the evidence of that knowing. But being saved does not automatically equate to knowing God (and, therefore, being known by him, in that sense).

I notice that you have no Scripture to back up this anti-biblical argument. One who is saved is born of God and has the Spirit of God, the love that they then will manifest is fruit of their transformation, which will increase as they grow into maturity in Christ.

A lot of immature Christians (immature as evidenced by their behavior) claim to 'know' God because they are saved (because they equate the two). But the truth is, they may be saved, but they have not grown up into 'knowing' God.

This is easy-believeism, which is found no where in Scripture, where a person can have no evidence of having the Spirit yet claim to be saved. Scripture gives a very different picture.

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 2 Corinthians 13:5 (ESV)

Paul tells us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are in the faith. Why? Because the reality that Jesus Christ is in us should demonstrate a transformed life.. new desires and new behaviors.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13 (ESV)

Paul also tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and he does this because of the fact that if we are saved, then we have God working in us to will and work for his good pleasure.

Notice in Scripture, you never see them challenging people to think on how genuinely they believed, but rather to look at the fruit of their life to see if there has been an internal transformation by the Spirit.

Is God truly working in me? Does my life demonstrate that Jesus Christ is in me? Am I obeying Christ's commandments in love? Is there genuine love for the brothers in my heart? Have I begun to break my habitual sins and walk in repentance?

These are the marks of what the Bible establishes as a true believer, and to ignore this in favor of one's life experiences is just not the way to do it.

Many people seem to be content with just being saved, not knowing that they have yet to 'know' God.

What does John say about people who are like this?

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him 1 John 2:4 (ESV)

Look at this text, it is refuting the exact lie you are telling. John is speaking about a people who say, "I know him," but do not keep his commandments (to love God and love the brothers, etc.). How does John describe these people? He says that the person who claims this, but does not keep the commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Those who don't know God, do not have the truth within them, which just like "knowing God" is an evidence of being born again that John consistently uses. Those who don't know God are not born of God, period.

 

[Deborah13]

In the first few months after being saved, I called the 700 Club counseling line because I could not love people. They told me I needed to get the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But it sounds like you're saying what I needed to do was get born again.

I assure you I was very much born again prior to and during this struggle with loving others. As it turned out, what I needed was to be educated about godly, Biblical love. Then I came to the point where I knew God, not just knew about him and his salvation, even though his salvation was very much mine before I knew him in this way that John talks about.

I did not know God the way John talks about, but I was in fact saved. In hindsight this has made me realize that being saved does not categorically equate to knowing God. But I am in agreement with what you said about John saying it is the lifestyle of love that shows if you know God or not.

Yike, twice in one day I can say I totally agree with your post!

 

[jasonc]

Yike, twice in one day I can say I totally agree with your post!

In the first few months after being saved, I called the 700 Club counseling line because I could not love people. They told me I needed to get the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But it sounds like you're saying what I needed to do was get born again.

I assure you I was very much born again prior to and during this struggle with loving others. As it turned out, what I needed was to be educated about godly, Biblical love. Then I came to the point where I knew God, not just knew about him and his salvation, even though his salvation was very much mine before I knew him in this way that John talks about.

I did not know God the way John talks about, but I was in fact saved. In hindsight this has made me realize that being saved does not categorically equate to knowing God. But I am in agreement with what you said about John saying it is the lifestyle of love that shows if you know God or not.

im living this. I thought I knew a lot about god. but I have found that by my actions and how I treat others at times and thoughts. I clearly don't. the church doesn't teach that salvation is a process but some one time event. we aren't fully changed in an instant. we must unlearn sin and its nature and how to change our desires. all this recently shown to me from an osas church! go figure!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...John says that if you know God, you will love people.

That is the very definition of knowing God.

What it is not is the definition of salvation. It is the sign of salvation. A sign you may, or may not have until later in your relationship with God. That doesn't mean, categorically, that you aren't saved until you have that sign. That's my point.

...a person who is not cultivating the habitual behavior of love, does not know God and is not born again.

The 'does not know God' part is true. What I'm saying is we have made the mistake of saying that, categorically, we are not saved, if the sign of salvation is not there, and that you are not saved until you have the sign of salvation. Simply not true.

God knows when our lack of love is because we are not saved. That's why we are exhorted to make sure that which we say is true (that we are born again) by acting out the salvation we have received. It's so WE can know if we are really born again or not. Not having the sign of salvation doesn't categorically mean you're not saved (it may or may not). What it means is you will know for yourself that you are truly saved if you have the fruit of love in your life.

Other texts in the Bible emphasize the necessity to mature in Christ and that the sanctification process isn't fully complete, but it is a struggle towards the goal.

But John did not say the struggle shows you are saved. He said actually loving in action is what shows you are saved.

Can't you see how you're defeating your own argument and actually supporting mine? Even you acknowledge that not loving, but simply wanting to love is what can happen in a saved person. But out the other side of your mouth you say that saved people love. You can't have it both ways.

Anyone who is saved knows God, it is very clear in Scripture.

No argument here. That's not what I'm challenging.

What I'm challenging is the belief that if you do not actively love it categorically means--your present relationship with God notwithstanding--that you are simply not saved. You say this, but at the same time you acknowledge the growth curve in which we eventually do love sometime after being saved.

By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:10 (ESV)

So what do we do with the born again person who simply hasn't grown up into this maturity yet? On one hand you quote scriptures like this to say he's not even saved to begin with. But then turn around and say it's simply because his desire has not bloomed into actual fruit yet. Which is why I say it's wrong to categorically equate knowing God (actually loving people in action not just in words) with salvation. In the long run, that is when we will see if our inaction was really the result of no salvation. So for our sakes, God commands us to make our salvation known and sure to ourselves by purposely seeking to manifest the love we say he has placed in us.

If you do not love God, or love the brothers you are not a child of God, and therefore not saved.

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. 1 John 3:14 (ESV)

Don't go beyond what he's saying. He says love is how we KNOW that we have passed from death to life. That doesn't mean, categorically, that to not love means we are simply not saved. In the long run, on the Day of Judgment, particularly (Matthew 25:45), it does. That's why we are told to 'make sure' we really have passed from death to life by 'doing' love now...so we can KNOW for sure if we have passed from death to life.

If you lack the type of love that John is talking about, or at least are not in the process of cultivating that, i.e. having the desire growing in you to have it.. then according to John you do not have life.

The problem I see with your doctrine is that John says nothing about the process--the getting to know God. You're adding that, but at the same time condemning those in that process as unsaved. Confusing, contradictory doctrine.

I notice that you have no Scripture to back up this anti-biblical argument.

Like many doctrines in the church, they have to be tested against real life. So when a person is born again but has no fruit yet--like in the parable of the growing seed in Mark 4:28 NASB--we have to understand what the Bible is actually getting at in light of life's realities. The reality here is people really do get born again and are only fresh stalks of growth in God's field with no fruit. It is later that they then bear mature fruit. And it is THEN that a person knows they really do belong to God, but that hardly means they did not belong to God as a legitimate planting of God before they bore that mature fruit. That's my point.

One who is saved is born of God and has the Spirit of God, the love that they then will manifest is fruit of their transformation, which will increase as they grow into maturity in Christ.

Jesus' parable speaks of the mature fruit coming later. Are these, then, the true plantings of God before they bear that fruit? I say, 'yes'. You say, 'no'.

In time we will see if a lack of fruitfulness is evidence of not belonging to Christ, and not simply not having grown up into Christ, yet.

This is easy-believeism, which is found no where in Scripture, where a person can have no evidence of having the Spirit yet claim to be saved. Scripture gives a very different picture.

Mark 4 does give that picture. A picture of process and growing up into the mature fruit of 'knowing' God, not starting out in it.

Notice in Scripture, you never see them challenging people to think on how genuinely they believed, but rather to look at the fruit of their life to see if there has been an internal transformation by the Spirit.

I'm not in disagreement with this. The mistake you're making is saying that the fruitless person who hears these words of admonition and then takes them to heart and starts producing the fruit of the kingdom did not belong to God in that fruitless stage. I'm saying, maybe he did, maybe he did not. We can't legalistically categorize all unfruitfulness as being unsaved. The point being, salvation does not categorically equate to 'knowing' God. It is the sign that you know him. But it may take time for the genuinely saved person to produce that sign. We are exhorted to do just that--make the effort to produce the sign--so we can know for ourselves that we are indeed saved and are ready for the Day of Judgment.

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him 1 John 2:4 (ESV)

Look at this text, it is refuting the exact lie you are telling.

Don't divide the Word of God unrightly. We know from the full counsel of God that it takes time to grow up into the fruit of the Spirit, the fruit that proves we are saved. That doesn't mean that we were not saved on our way up to that mature growth. John is speaking generally. Your failure is in how you are applying what John said. Ultimately, disobedience is the sign of not being saved, but it hardly means that all disobedience means you're not saved. As I said in the OP, that means many in this forum are simply not saved.

John is speaking about a people who say, "I know him," but do not keep his commandments (to love God and love the brothers, etc.). How does John describe these people? He says that the person who claims this, but does not keep the commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Make that your signature, and then when you get abused in these theological discussions remind them they are not even saved.

See? The mistake is in your application of what John said. Disobedience does not categorically mean you are not saved. It may mean that, or it may mean you have simply not grown up yet into an intimate knowing of the one who saved you. We learn which it is by being careful to 'make our calling and election sure'. Not establish our election, but show it to be sure and not in doubt.

Those who don't know God are not born of God, period.

The full counsel of God says we can't judge people in the narrow and defined way (signified by your 'period') that you are doing. We grow up into knowing God after we are saved....if we truly belong to him and continue in the faith we started out with. We don't start out in bearing the intimate fruit of the Spirit, no more than a new bride bears the intimate fruit of her new relationship with her husband on the first night they are married. But that hardly means she did not belong to her husband before that.

Her fruit, her kids, are how we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that she belongs to him. Because they look like him. Until then we can not be sure if the husband and wife are really being intimate or not. Our fruit shows us that we know God in an intimate and personal way, not just live under his roof.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yike, twice in one day I can say I totally agree with your post!

I feel the earth shaking...the stars have fled from their place...everything is being rolled up like a scroll.

Hang on folks!

(Love ya, sister. I really do.)

 

[Deborah13]

im living this. I thought I knew a lot about god. but I have found that by my actions and how I treat others at times and thoughts. I clearly don't. the church doesn't teach that salvation is a process but some one time event. we aren't fully changed in an instant. we must unlearn sin and its nature and how to change our desires. all this recently shown to me from an osas church! go figure!

I don't know of any OSAS church that doesn't teach the sanctification process, of unlearning sin and changing the desires of the heart.
The only church I have ever gone to that did not teach this process was Not OSAS.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't know of any OSAS church that doesn't teach the sanctification process, of unlearning sin and changing the desires of the heart.
The only church I have ever gone to that did not teach this process was Not OSAS.

We are a varied bunch of fruits, aren't we, lol.

I think the point is, OSAS has the fundamental belief (when they are arguing that side of their duplicitous doctrine) that, generally speaking, disobedience means you were never saved to begin with. Thus allen's reference to Matthew 7 about those Christ 'never knew'.

 

[jasonc]

I don't know of any OSAS church that doesn't teach the sanctification process, of unlearning sin and changing the desires of the heart.
The only church I have ever gone to that did not teach this process was Not OSAS.

I have only seen that here. but since so many say those things I assume that they are learning from somewhere. perhaps they don't attend church or that they are indeed taught cheap and easy grace. Idk

 

[Deborah13]

We are a varied bunch of fruits, aren't we, lol.

lol
That we are and it is really hard sometimes to explain what is in our hearts and minds.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

lol
That we are and it is really hard sometimes to explain what is in our hearts and minds.

No question about it. It has literally taken me years to effectively articulate, right or wrong, the things I do.

 

[Deborah13]

I have only seen that here. but since so many say those things I assume that they are learning from somewhere. perhaps they don't attend church or that they are indeed taught cheap and easy grace. Idk

I think the only way we could maybe understand is to not assume anything, read very carefully what is coming from that person's heart. And if we don't clearly understand, ask questions rather than arguing first.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The 'I never knew you' of Matthew 7:23 could mean a couple of different things. For the sake of this thread it may mean these people simply did not mature as required and expected into the Christ they accepted. The problem being, their faith failed somewhere along the line and they never grew to 'know' Christ intimately, and therefore, he never knew them intimately.

IOW, they are of the second type of soil. They sprang up quickly and with joy, but did not endure to the end and on to maturity, and will try to make an appeal for entrance to the kingdom on the basis of past believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think the only way we could maybe understand is to not assume anything, read very carefully what is coming from that person's heart. And if we don't clearly understand, ask questions rather than arguing first.

The hardest part of sharing in these forums is getting the other person to actually hear what you're saying. You have to know the other person's argument before you can effectively talk to them about it.

We all have preconceived ideas and beliefs through which we filter what we hear. It even makes us hear the other person's argument incorrectly according to what we've been told their argument is, not what it actually is.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

That is the very definition of knowing God.

How does one come to know God, they come to know God through his love revealed in the Cross of Christ. That is the fullest expression of his love for us, and it because each and every believer comes to experience that, that we now love.

Knowing God is walking in relationship and love, and is manifested that we do so by the love we have for his other children, our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

What it is not is the definition of salvation.

No one has said such, and the word "salvation" is just one term for how the NT writers describe what has happened in the believer. It is used so much by Protestants in particular that people can become quite confused as to what it really is.

It is the sign of salvation. A sign you may, or may not have until later in your relationship with God. That doesn't mean, categorically, that you aren't saved until you have that sign. That's my point.

The difference between what you and I are saying is this, I say that a person who is saved will never be entirely fruitless. At the beginning, the fruit may just be in the changing of the desires in the person, and will as they mature manifest more and more into action and habitual behavior.

God isn't about simply saving people, he wants to bring them into community, his community. And only in a culture where we have people scared to death of hell do we try to give absolute assurance prior to any fruit being demonstrated. A person who newly comes to faith in Christ shouldn't be concerned about "am I really saved," but rather, "how can I share this love that Christ has demonstrated to me".

What I'm challenging is the belief that if you do not actively love it categorically means--your present relationship with God notwithstanding--that you are simply not saved.

How can a person have any kind of assurance that they are saved if they have no fruit or evidence in their life? I am ultimately not the judge of a person's life, but if someone tells me they are a believer and they have absolutely no distinguishable fruits in their life and live just like the world... what good would I be doing if I gave them assurance of salvation?

I'm talking about assurance of salvation here, which is the only thing we can really speak to since I cannot see spiritually if a person has the Spirit.. I can only see if they have the fruit of the Spirit.

So what do we do with the born again person who simply hasn't grown up into this maturity yet?

If there is no fruit, then how do we even go about determining that this person is born again? Perhaps they are, but admonishing them to live in love and walk in the Spirit is what we should do. Not patting them on the back, "don't worry, you're saved." Scripturally, there is no assurance for people who display no fruit.

Discussing whether or not they are saved on a case by case basis is simply the wrong issue to focus on. The issue is whether or not we, from our perspective should actively give these people assurance.

Don't go beyond what he's saying. He says love is how we KNOW that we have passed from death to life. That doesn't mean, categorically, that to not love means we are simply not saved. In the long run, on the Day of Judgment, particularly (Matthew 25:45), it does. That's why we are told to 'make sure' we really have passed from death to life by 'doing' love now...so we can KNOW for sure if we have passed from death to life.

How then did you claim to "know" that you had passed from death to life prior to loving? I am not saying you weren't saved, I am just against giving people with no fruit assurance of salvation. Especially if it has been sometime since they first believed.

The problem I see with your doctrine is that John says nothing about the process--the getting to know God. You're adding that, but at the same time condemning those in that process as unsaved. Confusing, contradictory doctrine.

I recommend you determining what a contradiction is before you accuse me of making one. This is what I am saying. John's Epistle is about assurance, how one can know that they have life in Christ. There are many other texts in the NT, which speak about the process and struggle of being a Christian and growing into maturity. I do not automatically condemn the person who does not have fruit. I just am saying that how can we from our perspective know at that time that the person actually is saved? Time will reveal whether or not God is working in them, and talking abstractly about the saved person with no fruit has no bearing on what we actually experience.

So it seems it is your argument that betrays what we can realistically experience.

Like many doctrines in the church, they have to be tested against real life. So when a person is born again but has no fruit yet--like in the parable of the growing seed in Mark 4:28 NASB--we have to understand what the Bible is actually getting at in light of life's realities. The reality here is people really do get born again and are only fresh stalks of growth in God's field with no fruit. It is later that they then bear mature fruit. And it is THEN that a person knows they really do belong to God, but that hardly means they did not belong to God as a legitimate planting of God before they bore that mature fruit. That's my point.

The Parable of the Seed Growing is not about the journey of a believer. It is about the journey of the kingdom of God. Notice he says, "The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground..."

What I am saying, is that in real life, what does it matter if we establish a person is saved, prior to them actually demonstrating it to be so? We can only see from our own perspective, which doesn't mean we declare every person without fruit as "unsaved," but we rather instruct them of these passages where we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Jesus' parable speaks of the mature fruit coming later. Are these, then, the true plantings of God before they bear that fruit? I say, 'yes'. You say, 'no'.

In time we will see if a lack of fruitfulness is evidence of not belonging to Christ, and not simply not having grown up into Christ, yet.

You put words in my mouth, please do not do this. What you are saying would only be useful after the fact, a person could then say, "well it looks like I was saved in that period of fruitlessness." I see no purpose in getting into whether or not a person who has no fruit is currently saved, as Scripture grants no assurance.

Mark 4 does give that picture. A picture of process and growing up into the mature fruit of 'knowing' God, not starting out in it.

Again, you misuse Mark 4, not all Scripture is individually applicable.

The mistake you're making is saying that the fruitless person who hears these words of admonition and then takes them to heart and starts producing the fruit of the kingdom did not belong to God in that fruitless stage.

Did I say you were not saved? What I am arguing is how you could possibly know that you were saved in that period given that you had no evidence of God's work in your life? If there actually was, then that is in keeping with my statements about the process and growth beginning in the desires of the believer.

The "fruitless believer" is a mystery man, no one can actually know that he is for real until after the fact he began evidencing it. I also would say that a person wouldn't be 100% fruitless, but their desires would begin to manifest a change.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Don't divide the Word of God unrightly. We know from the full counsel of God that it takes time to grow up into the fruit of the Spirit, the fruit that proves we are saved. That doesn't mean that we were not saved on our way up to that mature growth. John is speaking generally. Your failure is in how you are applying what John said. Ultimately, disobedience is the sign of not being saved, but it hardly means that all disobedience means you're not saved. As I said in the OP, that means many in this forum are simply not saved.

John is talking about how one knows they have eternal life, in other words assurance. Perhaps I was not clear in my other posts but I hope I have been clear now... those who say, "I know God," or in other words claim to have assurance of salvation, but do no keep God's commands has no warrant for such assurance according to John.

If you fail to be obedient, is this not disobedience?

Make that your signature, and then when you get abused in these theological discussions remind them they are not even saved.

Where have I said that we should be going around telling people they aren't saved? This is a very rude statement.

See? The mistake is in your application of what John said. Disobedience does not categorically mean you are not saved. It may mean that, or it may mean you have simply not grown up yet into an intimate knowing of the one who saved you. We learn which it is by being careful to 'make our calling and election sure'. Not establish our election, but show it to be sure and not in doubt.

You seem not to have a clear understanding of what I actually believe. Where did I say that any disobedience means a person is not saved? If a person claims to have absolute assurance and that they know God, but do not keep God's commands in a habitual way.. then they should examine themselves as Paul admonishes us to do. It isn't my job to tell them "you aren't saved," but to point them to the commands of Scripture.

The full counsel of God says we can't judge people in the narrow and defined way (signified by your 'period') that you are doing.

Wow... earlier I said, "anyone who is saved knows God," and you responded, "No argument here that is not what I am challenging." Now you appear to be challenging the same kind of statement just said differently. Where have I said that we need to go around judging people and condemning them?

We grow up into knowing God after we are saved....if we truly belong to him and continue in the faith we started out with. We don't start out in bearing the intimate fruit of the Spirit, no more than a new bride bears the intimate fruit of her new relationship with her husband on the first night they are married. But that hardly means she did not belong to her husband before that.

We come to know God more and more, but every believer knows God through the his love revealed in the gospel, the Cross of Christ.

Her fruit, her kids, are how we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that she belongs to him. Because they look like him. Until then we can not be sure if the husband and wife are really being intimate or not. Our fruit shows us that we know God in an intimate and personal way, not just live under his roof.

As a newly married man, I greatly disagree with this analogy.