Does Sunday morning church need all the showmanship and gimmicks?

[BigSodaExposer]

People organize the church, and people aren't perfect. If you are going to look for the perfect church, you will die of old age never having had the advantage of good Christian fellowship. Sometimes we need to forgive the bad and take advantage of the good.

But why be a member to just one church? Where in the scripture does it say to settle down and be complacent with just one man made church? Jesus was perfect, the holy spirit molds one to be perfect and be like Jesus.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

As in the pharisees accusing Jesus's works or power coming from Beelzebub? Your comment is discouraging to me, makes me fear I am walking in a minefield. Even if it is truth in scripture. Yet there is nothing more righteous than the truth yes? An in truth, I tell of how/when the spirit entered me. If I lie about that, than I am not in righteousness. I can't win here.

I am just saying that we should be careful to charge the idea that certain Church practices are that of the devil. Caution is warranted I think per Scripture.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

I am just saying that we should be careful to charge the idea that certain Church practices are that of the devil. Caution is warranted I think per Scripture.

Understood.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Thanks for the reply, but why do you feel the internet doesn't count? .

The internet tends to give the illusion of being connected. This isn't the case 100% of the time of course, but interacting over technology shouldn't nullify the need to physically meet together as the Apostles taught us to.

There is also little accountability over the internet, you are an anonymous person who could leave at any point.

Many churches today have integrated the internet/have a website.

They haven't replaced their church with the internet. If you attend your service over the internet each week to listen to the sermon, then this is not what was intended by the Apostle's teachings. We should meet (physically together) regularly, and not just to sing songs and listen to a sermon but to have fellowship and accountability with each other.

Christ never segregated his disciples into denominations.

I don't like denominations much either, and there are nondemonational churches out there for people who don't like denominations.

Why should I be a member of a man made church?

Most denominations came about because of certain movements of God in bringing many people in Christ. They are sadly maintained because of strong doctrinal differences. For instance, a Baptist and a Presbyterian don't maintain fellowship in the same church because of their differences on infant baptism.

There are of course as I already mentioned, nondenominational churches that you can attend.

If you're expecting a perfect church that agrees 100% with what you think is the truth then I suppose you'll never find a place. What I ended up discovering was that God wanted me to find a place for me to serve, rather than find a place that served my preferences.

Anyone that is in Christ is your brother or sister.

Absolutely, which is why I do not like the idea of denominations at all either. However, I understand that it is important to serve the Church as it is, and not how we would want it to be, in order to make a difference.

Why would God have placed such a desire for unity among the brotherhood, and then command you to stay away? Let us look to sow unity where there is disunity, and find our common foundation not in the particulars but in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

Just reading your Bible on your own should lead you to fellowship in some capacity (internet doesn't count). A house church or local church congregation.

not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. Hebrews 10:25 (ESV)

And in case you are wondering with the KJV says.

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (KJV)

Reading and studying my Bible alone brings me into fellowship with God through His Holy Spirit in whom we need to have fellowship with. I do believe the internet counts as Church is made up of one body that is in Christ and that is who we are in here is one body of Christ. We are not forsaking the assembling, but being assembled with many around the world as we share the word, pray, lift up and edify one another through that of Gods very Spirit. Do we put God in a four walled box, decorate it and call it Church or do we take God out of that box and allow Him to be Lord of our lives everyday 24/7. Sorry, I do not attend any four walled Church at this time nor will I lower my standards to sit in a congregation that is taught a false gospel just for the sake of being in a particular Church to win Brownie points with God as some think they do. I know who I am in Christ and the personal relationship we have that He leads me in all things that gives Him glory and honor.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

The internet tends to give the illusion of being connected. This isn't the case 100% of the time of course, but interacting over technology shouldn't nullify the need to physically meet together as the Apostles taught us to.

There is also little accountability over the internet, you are an anonymous person who could leave at any point.


They haven't replaced their church with the internet. If you attend your service over the internet each week to listen to the sermon, then this is not what was intended by the Apostle's teachings.

I didn't say they have. Just that they have integrated into the internet with websites and such. I agree people should meet in the flesh. Maybe read books instead of other forms of media. But the internet is like music, if its done in praise of Jesus and not oneself then its all good right?

then this is not what was intended by the Apostle's teachings. /quote] Is that your opinion or from the word of God?


If you're expecting a perfect church that agrees 100% with what you think is the truth then I suppose you'll never find a place. What I ended up discovering was that God wanted me to find a place for me to serve, rather than find a place that served my preferences.

I never said I expected a church to be perfect, nor did I say a church must bend to what I think. Its not what I think that matters. Its what God thinks that matters. Where in the scripture did Jesus give the format of Sunday churches? How to dress, what the building should look like, etc. I thought Jesus said what we wear is not important. Mathew 6:25-29 "25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these"

It is of your opinion the internet is of no consequence. Yet what could reach more lost people? I totally agree that grassroot meetings are much more warm and loving than a cold digital interface. At this point I don't see the youth of 2014 responding as favorably to such. This article in the OP state many of these churches believe they are reaching more youth that way.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Reading and studying my Bible alone brings me into fellowship with God through His Holy Spirit in whom we need to have fellowship with.

I'm not saying reading the Bible isn't good, I do for the same reasons, but I don't do it while at the same time forsaking fellowship in community.

I do believe the internet counts as Church is made up of one body that is in Christ and that is who we are in here is one body of Christ.

Well the Church is who we are collectively, the assembly of God. Going to services where we are located physically together I believe is important. In the 1st Century their churches were based upon location, and I still think that applies for today. How are we to bring to the gospel to our communities unless we work together to do so, and provide a place for unbelievers to come and hear the gospel.

We are not forsaking the assembling, but being assembled with many around the world as we share the word, pray, lift up and edify one another through that of Gods very Spirit.

I don't deny that there is genuine fellowship, but I for one having been around here for a bit and observing beyond my experience could not with integrity suggest this as a proper substitute.

There is only so deep you can go with someone over the internet, and there is no accountability.

Do we put God in a four walled box, decorate it and call it Church or do we take God out of that box and allow Him to be Lord of our lives everyday 24/7.

I also mentioned house churches, which could meet outside or where ever is convenient. What is important is people meeting together (physically and regularly), to worship, hear the word of God expounded and have fellowship with one another and they contribute to each others needs as well as the furthering of the gospel in the community.

Sorry, I do not attend any four walled Church at this time nor will I lower my standards to sit in a congregation that is taught a false gospel just for the sake of being in a particular Church to win Brownie points with God as some think they do.

I wouldn't attend a Church that preaches a false gospel either. Do you suppose all Churches on the planet teach a false gospel? If so, I doubt you will find many Christians out there for you to fellowship with..

I know who I am in Christ and the personal relationship we have that He leads me in all things that gives Him glory and honor.

Personal relationship with the Lord is important, but it is not primary. Christ came not to save a bunch of individuals who do their own thing, but to save the Church, a body of individuals who are individually members of one another. Unity within community is perhaps the most important message within the Epistles of the NT.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I didn't say they have.

I didn't say that you were making that point, but merely wanted to point out that while the internet can be useful, it should be to supplement a local community of believers.

Just that they have integrated into the internet with websites and such. I agree people should meet in the flesh. Maybe read books instead of other forms of media. But the internet is like music, if its done in praise of Jesus and not oneself then its all good right?

Solely relying on the internet for fellowship with Christians means that you are not meeting regularly with believers who are in your community attempting to the bring the gospel to the lost, and helping those in need. God has called us to be in community with those believers around us for a reason, and it is important that we meet together (physically).

I never said I expected a church to be perfect

Note the "if" making my statement conditional on whether or not this was your expectation. You seem awfully defensive, this is a casual conversation.

nor did I say a church must bend to what I think. Its not what I think that matters. Its what God thinks that matters. Where in the scripture did Jesus give the format of Sunday churches? How to dress, what the building should look like, etc. I thought Jesus said what we wear is not important. Mathew 6:25-29 "25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these"

Jesus is here talking about the concerns of our daily life, not that they be on what we wear or what we eat, but to have faith in God for these things and set our eyes on his Kingdom. Surely this isn't a warrant for women to dress however they please, but for us all to dress decently and modestly as Paul commanded later.

Paul gives some specific references regarding the leadership structure within a Church (there is no accountability for Biblical authority on the internet, just moderation). Also, for how the Spiritual gifts can be used, (don't know how those work over the internet). As well as how we are to treat one another, which is perhaps his most important and common teaching.

It is of your opinion the internet is of no consequence. Yet what could reach more lost people?

In all my time on the internet I have never seen the fruit of it in regards to bringing the lost to Christ. Though I have seen plenty through face to face ministering to them.

I don't think it is of zero consequence to that end, but is no replacement for actually preaching the gospel for them to hear with their ears and then providing a local meeting place for them to fellowship with believers within their community. I think it would be a dreadful idea to have a recently saved person use the internet solely as their means of fellowship.

I totally agree that grassroot meetings are much more warm and loving than a cold digital interface. At this point I don't see the youth of 2014 responding as favorably to such.

All things to all people, in order that we might save some. We must adapt to the culture, not adapting the gospel of Jesus Christ to fit our liking, but to lay down our preferences to reach the community at large for Christ.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

There is only so deep you can go with someone over the internet, and there is no accountability.

From the eyes of a former lost soul I could argue the same about a building. You come in an sit down, shake hands with folks of the community. Then the preacher starts a service. Says a few words community wise. Then he quotes a scripture and gives his opinion on it for 15 minutes, then you sing hymns, then more scripture. Its not like english class, when the teacher would find the most opportune times (adolescent boy to call you to the front or read alloud a certain paragraph in front of the class. So in ways I understand the accountability thing. But going to a brick and mortar church makes me worry about what I am wearing. Will the others accept me? So I don't want to look like a slouch or whino. Or be embarrased in front of others. But this thinking is of the self. The vanity and glory of men. What does God think about the clothes I had on?

I see this from two perspectives. On the one hand...one is publicly calling itself a house of the lord, so it would be expected to be presentable and holy. On the other hand, Jesus gives an understanding of the difference of public and private glory, both in the giving of charity (alms) and prayer, because God sees both private and public. What you do in public can be more for your own glory than God's.

Mathew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly." I think this is one of the most powerful and underused/acknowledged verses of the bible. Jesus is basically describing giving charity like shoplifting. Shoplifting is slight of hand. You do it so the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing. I know, I've done it many times in the past. Thank God the spirit got me away from that lifestyle. But what he is describing is the exact opposite. Giving a charitable act without any acknowledgement from a person. Not like the millionaire who comes on TV and says "well I just donated three million to St Judes children hospital!" That would be sounding a trumpet...seeking the glory of men. See, thats the kinda stuff I saw on facebook, "I just went to a jail and 19 people signed a paper they are saved by Jesus now!" Like this is some sort of competition..I "saved" more than you. I thought Jesus did the saving? And it was by grace we have that gift. I didnt know one man could have others sign a slip and that equalled changing your ways/life to be like Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm not saying reading the Bible isn't good, I do for the same reasons, but I don't do it while at the same time forsaking fellowship in community.


Well the Church is who we are collectively, the assembly of God. Going to services where we are located physically together I believe is important. In the 1st Century their churches were based upon location, and I still think that applies for today. How are we to bring to the gospel to our communities unless we work together to do so, and provide a place for unbelievers to come and hear the gospel.


I don't deny that there is genuine fellowship, but I for one having been around here for a bit and observing beyond my experience could not with integrity suggest this as a proper substitute.

There is only so deep you can go with someone over the internet, and there is no accountability.


I also mentioned house churches, which could meet outside or where ever is convenient. What is important is people meeting together (physically and regularly), to worship, hear the word of God expounded and have fellowship with one another and they contribute to each others needs as well as the furthering of the gospel in the community.


I wouldn't attend a Church that preaches a false gospel either. Do you suppose all Churches on the planet teach a false gospel? If so, I doubt you will find many Christians out there for you to fellowship with..


Personal relationship with the Lord is important, but it is not primary. Christ came not to save a bunch of individuals who do their own thing, but to save the Church, a body of individuals who are individually members of one another. Unity within community is perhaps the most important message within the Epistles of the NT.

My husband I do miss the assembling of face to face fellowship with others, but do have this on a small scale, and the involvement of participating in the various functions of the Church that we use to be involved in. Unfortunate circumstances caused us to leave that Church and have never found another in our little area that we felt led to be a part of. I just can not sit under a ministry where during the service I find myself knowing that of what they are teaching is not truth or that the whole service is worship in music with little or no teaching at all. Some have asked me to start Bible studies where we live, but I have never Spiritually been lead to be a leader, but only that of a participator/helper as I will not jump into anything without the Holy Spirit calling me first. This is why I come into forums to not only teach the word, but to also learn from others that are led by the Holy Spirit in all truths. For now CF is my home Church as we share the word of God and learn from one another.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

From the eyes of a former lost soul I could argue the same about a building. You come in an sit down, shake hands with folks of the community. Then the preacher starts a service. Says a few words community wise. Then he quotes a scripture and gives his opinion on it for 15 minutes, then you sing hymns, then more scripture. Its not like english class, when the teacher would find the most opportune times (adolescent boy to call you to the front or read alloud a certain paragraph in front of the class.

I'm not arguing for everyone to go to what most Churches are like, merely that they have fellowship with believers in their community some organized way, regardless of the building or environment where they are meeting.

I also am arguing for genuine community, not a replacement for that which a large number of churches sadly substitute it for. No church will be perfect of course, and perhaps it won't always be found on Sunday morning, but meeting regularly with believers in the same local community is paramount.

But going to a brick and mortar church makes me worry about what I am wearing. Will the others accept me? So I don't want to look like a slouch or whino. Or be embarrased in front of others. But this thinking is of the self. The vanity and glory of men. What does God think about the clothes I had on?

God looks at the heart, and what we wear is of little importance, though it can sometimes indicate certain behaviors. It's important to do our best to be healthy and maintain clean hygiene (for the sake of others), these are all secondary and can easily be twisted to have people fear the opinions of men. I think the Bible proscribes the people of the congregation to show special attention to those who look like they don't belong, rather than the rich guy who just came in the room.

I see this from two perspectives. On the one hand...one is publicly calling itself a house of the lord, so it would be expected to be presentable and holy. On the other hand, Jesus gives an understanding of the difference of public and private glory, both in the giving of charity (alms) and prayer, because God sees both private and public. What you do in public can be more for your own glory than God's.

Jesus was calling out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who did not have genuine affection for God, but rather longed for the praise of man. He told them to do these things privately and therefore seek the glory of God instead. I don't think he was arguing that we should only pray privately, but when we exercise giving or praying, etc. we should be careful to watch our hearts intentions.

Mathew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly." I think this is one of the most powerful and underused/acknowledged verses of the bible. Jesus is basically describing giving charity like shoplifting. Shoplifting is slight of hand. You do it so the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing. I know, I've done it many times in the past. Thank God the spirit got me away from that lifestyle. But what he is describing is the exact opposite. Giving a charitable act without any acknowledgement from a person. Not like the millionaire who comes on TV and says "well I just donated three million to St Judes children hospital!" That would be sounding a trumpet...seeking the glory of men. See, thats the kinda stuff I saw on facebook, "I just went to a jail and 19 people signed a paper they are saved by Jesus now!" Like this is some sort of competition..I "saved" more than you. I thought Jesus did the saving? And it was by grace we have that gift. I didnt know one man could have others sign a slip and that equalled changing your ways/life to be like Christ.

Again, these are all issues of the heart. Celebrating the work of God done in a prison is not a bad thing, and we shouldn't assume ill intentions such as they are looking to receive the praise of men, while in reality they might be looking to illuminate the glory of God.

A sure way to guard one's heart against hypocrisy and the desire for the praise of men, is to do their giving and praying in secret. If one knows that they are truly seeking the glory of God in their giving and does so in a manner that others can see, then I do not see any issue.

Does one's reward lie in heaven, or have they already received it when they gave. Only that individual may answer, and we must be careful with judging the perceived intentions of others. Let God who looks upon the heart judge the intentions, while we do our best to see our brothers and sisters inclined towards love for Christ.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

My husband I do miss the assembling of face to face fellowship with others, but do have this on a small scale, and the involvement of participating in the various functions of the Church that we use to be involved in. Unfortunate circumstances caused us to leave that Church and have never found another in our little area that we felt led to be a part of. I just can not sit under a ministry where during the service I find myself knowing that of what they are teaching is not truth or that the whole service is worship in music with little or no teaching at all. Some have asked me to start Bible studies where we live, but I have never Spiritually been lead to be a leader, but only that of a participator/helper as I will not jump into anything without the Holy Spirit calling me first. This is why I come into forums to not only teach the word, but to also learn from others that are led by the Holy Spirit in all truths. For now CF is my home Church as we share the word of God and learn from one another.

To be fair, it seems you strove for that local contact but have had difficulty finding it. While I am of the opinion that an internet forum is not a long term solution, it seems as though you are using as your home church for the time being? Correct?

 

[BigSodaExposer]

I didn't say that you were making that point, but merely wanted to point out that while the internet can be useful, it should be to supplement a local community of believers.


Solely relying on the internet for fellowship with Christians means that you are not meeting regularly with believers who are in your community attempting to the bring the gospel to the lost, and helping those in need. God has called us to be in community with those believers around us for a reason, and it is important that we meet together (physically).


Note the "if" making my statement conditional on whether or not this was your expectation. You seem awfully defensive, this is a casual conversation.


Jesus is here talking about the concerns of our daily life, not that they be on what we wear or what we eat, but to have faith in God for these things and set our eyes on his Kingdom. Surely this isn't a warrant for women to dress however they please, but for us all to dress decently and modestly as Paul commanded later.

Paul gives some specific references regarding the leadership structure within a Church (there is no accountability for Biblical authority on the internet, just moderation). Also, for how the Spiritual gifts can be used, (don't know how those work over the internet). As well as how we are to treat one another, which is perhaps his most important and common teaching.


In all my time on the internet I have never seen the fruit of it in regards to bringing the lost to Christ. Though I have seen plenty through face to face ministering to them.

I don't think it is of zero consequence to that end, but is no replacement for actually preaching the gospel for them to hear with their ears and then providing a local meeting place for them to fellowship with believers within their community. I think it would be a dreadful idea to have a recently saved person use the internet solely as their means of fellowship.


All things to all people, in order that we might save some. We must adapt to the culture, not adapting the gospel of Jesus Christ to fit our liking, but to lay down our preferences to reach the community at large for Christ.

Not defensive brother, just wanted to be quoted right. I dunno what to say honestly, the internet helped me come to Christ. Churches did not. But I'm not like everyone else either. All available tools should be used to strengthen the body of Christ not weaken or divide it.

From my wordly observation, people do not live the same as in the 80's, when I grew up. I do not see the same hospitality and openess in strangers anymore. And no one even speaks out anymore, such as elders giving fatherly advice to someone that is not their son when they do wrong . I see much apathy in people. Even those who say they are christian. The point is, its 2014 and not the 80s. Things are different now. The darkness in the world today is obvious. I hear what you are saying and know you're right, but the modern life is how it is now. To say one could not reach God through the internet would be an opinion and danger of the judgement I would think. Biblical accountability on the net comes from posting bible verses that others can check and study themselves. What then is the difference of watching videos on youtube, and sitting in a church? A man is giving his opinions on the word of God. No one has to believe it or watch it. Most I have saw are not claiming to be a church. If he is giving real scripture that can be checked. So its a supplement. But one can watch the videos however they are dressed. But who are we to say they are doing it wrong?

 

[for_his_glory]

I've been coming into forums for a good many years while attending a certain Church or as for now none at all in my area. In a sense these forums are a Church like atmosphere (without the music) and a place where I can come to everyday to share and learn as I spend many hours studying the word of God by all the various topics that challenges me to dig deeper in the word as the Holy Spirit reveals the truth found in Gods word. I'm usually in here from early morning until late afternoon almost everyday until my husband comes home from work. I'm disabled so I do not work anymore and coming into a forum like CF I can sit here and study my Bible all day long which is more than I could get by actually going to any Church in my area and maybe only concentrating on one area of study. Home Church, in a sense of the word, yes.