jgredline
Member
guibox
I had time to sneak this in as my daughter is now at 7cm so I need to go.
Lovely. Thanks!
Ok Guibox
Lets take a look as according to soma sight this fabulous post of yours.
jg,
\0\0BTW,yo\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0u mentioned 'Hades' as being the place where the demons reside. This is false. The place where the demons reside is 'Tartaros' which is used only the one time in 2 Peter. I figured your concordance was shady and mostly infused with preconceived notions, now I know that for a fact...
Guibox
The concordance and Dictionary I use are Strongs. In addition I can also read and understand Greek. Can you?
So lets look at the word you mentioned here ‘’ Tartaros’’
This is what the strongs def says here.
The New Strong's Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words: tartarŏō ταρταρόω
5020. ταρταρόω tartarŏō, tar-tar-ŏ´-o; from Τάρταρος Tartarŏs, (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: cast down to hell.
Enhanced Strong's Lexicon: 5020 ταρταρόω
5020 ταρταρόω [tartaroo /tar•tar•o•o/] v. From Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); GK 5434; AV translates as “cast down to hell†once. 1 the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews. 2 to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus.
So now Guibox. I ask you. Where is ‘’ Tartaros’’ Located? I will give you a hint. Read the above definition..
Guibox Wrote:
As far as the topic goes,
You might have a bit more credibility if you argued that since the death and resurrection of Jesus righteous man has been given an 'immortal spirit'. Though not accurate, at least you would have biblical scripture and logic to support it.
LOL. How can Jesus be given anything? Guibox. I seek no credibility from you for that would bring me two steps backwards.
To say that man is inherently immortal is a falsehood that cannot be supported by scripture.
The soul will continue for all eternity. As has been proven to you and others many times with the scriptures.
Guibox wrote:
Instead (and I would like you to comment on these please) the Bible says:
1)That immortality is only an attribute of God (1 Timothy 1:16)
I am not sure you understand it but here is what this passage means.
This explains why Paul obtained mercy. It was so that he might be an exhibit of the longsuffering of Jesus Christ. Just as he had been the chief of sinners, so now he would be the chief display of the untiring grace of the Lord. He would be “Exhibit A,†a living example, of divine love rising above the most active hostility, of divine longsuffering exhausting the most varied and persistent antagonism.
Paul’s case would be a pattern. In the printing trade, pattern means a first proof. It signifies a specimen or a sample. Paul’s conversion would be a pattern of what God would do with the nation of Israel when the Deliverer comes out of Zion (Rom. 11:26).
In a more general sense the verse means that none need despair, no matter how wicked they might be. They can console themselves that since the Lord has already saved the chief of sinners, they too can find grace and mercy by coming to Him as penitents. By believing on Him, they too can find everlasting life. To those who reject him, everlasting torment in the lake of fire.
Guibox Wrote:
2) That immortality is something we seek, not something we have (Romans 2:7)
In explaining that judgment will be according to works, Paul says that God will render eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality. As I have already explained in another thread , this does not mean that these people are saved by patient continuance in doing good. That would be another gospel which is what you preach.. No one would naturally live that kind of life, and no one could live it without divine power. Anyone who really fits this description has already been saved by grace through faith. The fact that he seeks for glory, honor, and immortality shows that he has already been born again. The whole tenor of his life shows that he has been converted.
He seeks for the glory of heaven; the honor that comes only from God (John 5:44); the immortality that characterizes the resurrection body (1 Cor. 15:53, 54); the heavenly inheritance, which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading (1 Pet. 1:4).
God will award eternal life to all who manifest this evidence of a conversion experience. Eternal life is spoken of in several ways in the NT. It is a present possession which we receive the moment we are converted (John 5:24). It is a future possession which will be ours when we receive our glorified bodies (here and in Rom. 6:22). Although it is a gift received by faith, it is sometimes associated with rewards for a life of faithfulness (Mark 10:30). All believers will have eternal life, but some will have a greater capacity for enjoying it than others. It means more than endless existence; it is a quality of life, the more abundant life which the Savior promised in John 10:10. It is the very life of Christ Himself (Col. 1:27). For those who are not Born again will receive eternal life in the lake of Fire with Satan and his demons.
Guibox Wrote:
3) That David himself hasn't gone to heaven in any form (Acts 2:29,34)
Peter argues that David could not have been saying these things about himself, because his body had seen corruption. His tomb was well known to the Jews of that day. They knew he had not been raised.
When he wrote the Psalm, David was speaking as a prophet. He remembered that God had promised to raise up One of his descendants to sit on his throne forever. David realized that this One would be the Messiah, and that though He would die, His soul would not be left in the disembodied condition, and His body would not decay.
Now Peter repeats an announcement that must have shocked his Jewish audience. The Messiah of whom David prophesied was Jesus of Nazareth. God had raised Him from among the dead, as the apostles could all testify because they were eyewitnesses to His resurrection. Following His resurrection, the Lord Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God, and now the Holy Spirit had been sent as promised by the Father. This was the explanation of what had happened in Jerusalem earlier in the day.
Had not David also predicted the exaltation of the Messiah? He was not speaking of himself in Psalm 110:1. Instead he was quoting Jehovah as saying to the Messiah, “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.†(Note carefully that verses 33–35 predict a waiting time between the glorification of Christ and His return to punish His enemies and set up His kingdom.)
Guibox wrote:
4) That immortality/eternal life is a gift of God only bestowed on mankind AFTER Christ's giving of it by his resurrection, and not before (John 3:16)
I WAS GOING TO SKIP COMMENTATING ON THIS, but then realized that perhaps you and others here really need to grasp this. This Verse after all is the Gospel. OK, This is one of the best known verses in all the Bible, doubtless because it states the gospel so clearly and simply. It summarizes what the Lord Jesus had been teaching Nicodemus concerning the manner by which the new birth is received. God, we read, so loved the world. The world here includes all mankind. God does not love men’s sins or the wicked world system, but He loves people and is not willing that any should perish.
The extent of His love is shown by the fact that He gave His only begotten Son. God has no other Son like the Lord Jesus. It was an expression of His infinite love that He would be willing to give His unique Son for a race of rebel sinners. This does not mean that everyone is saved. A person must receive what Christ has done for him before God will give him eternal life. Therefore, the words are added, “that whoever believes in Him should not perish.†There is no need for anyone to perish. A way has been provided by which all might be saved, but a person must acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ as personal Savior. When he does this, he has eternal life as a present possession.
I should also note that the word Parish here in the Greek is a A primary particle of qualified negation, meaning that it will go on for ever and ever through all eternity.
So if one is not Born from above, he will forever and ever be in the lake of fire and not perish.
Guibox wrote:
5) That man is given immortality not at death by some inherent nature, but at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51-55)
The answer as I have stated in another thread is in the form of a mystery. As a mystery is a truth previously unknown, but now revealed by God to the apostles and made known through them to us.
We shall not all sleep, that is, not all believers will experience death. Some will be alive when the Lord returns. But whether we have died or are still alive, we shall all be changed. The truth of resurrection itself is not a mystery, since it appears in the OT, but the fact that not all will die and also the change of living saints at the Lord’s Return is something that had never been known before.
The change will take place instantly, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. The last trumpet here does not mean the end of the world, or even the last trumpet mentioned in Revelation. Rather, it refers to the trumpet of God which will sound when Christ comes into the air for His saints (1 Thess. 4:16). When the trumpet sounds, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. What a tremendous moment that will be, when the earth and the sea will yield up the dust of all those who have died trusting in Christ down through the centuries! It is almost impossible for the human mind to take in the magnitude of such an event; yet the humble believer can accept it by faith. I hope I am alive to see this….
I believe that verse 53 refers to the two classes of believers at the time of Christ’s Return. This corruptible refers to those whose bodies have returned to the dust. They will put on incorruption. This mortal, on the other hand, refers to those who are still alive in body but are subject to death. Such bodies will put on immortality.
When the dead in Christ are raised and the living changed with them, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory†(Isa. 25:8).
Many scholars believe this verse may well be a taunt song which believers sing as they rise to meet the Lord in the air. It is as if they mock Death because for them it has lost its sting. They also mock Hades because for them it has lost the battle to keep them as its own. Death holds no terror for them because they know their sins have been forgiven and they stand before God in all the acceptability of His beloved Son. This makes perfect sense to me.
Death would have no sting for anyone if it were not for sin. It is the consciousness of sins unconfessed and unforgiven that makes men afraid to die. If we know our sins are forgiven, we can face death with confidence. If, on the other hand, sin is on the conscience, death is terribleâ€â€the beginning of eternal punishment.
The strength of sin is the law, that is, the law condemns the sinner. It pronounces the doom of all who have failed to obey God’s holy precepts. It has been well said that if there were no sin, there would be no death. And if there were no law, there would be no condemnation.
Guibox wrote:
and finally...
6) That immortality has been brought to life and death has been abolished by the Savior Jesus Christ and not before that (2 Timothy 1:10)
The same gospel that was designed in eternity was revealed in time. It was revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ. During the days of His flesh, He publicly proclaimed the good news of salvation. He taught men that He must die, be buried, and rise from the dead in order that God might righteously save ungodly sinners.
He abolished death. But how can this be, when we know that death is still very common in the world? The thought is that He annulled death, or put it out of commission. Before Christ’s resurrection, death ruled as a cruel tyrant over men. It was a dreaded foe. The fear of death held men in bondage. But the resurrection of the Lord Jesus is a pledge that all who trust in Him will rise from the dead to die no more. It is in this sense that He has annulled death. He has robbed it of its sting. Death is now the messenger of God which brings the soul of the believer to heaven. It is our servant rather than our master.
Not only has the Lord Jesus annulled death, He has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. In the OT period, most men had a very vague and misty idea of life after death. They spoke of departed loved ones as in Sheol, which simply means the invisible state of departed spirits. Although they had a heavenly hope set before them, yet for the most part they did not understand it clearly.
Since the coming of Christ, we have much greater light on this subject. For instance, we know that when a believer dies, his spirit departs to be with Christ, which is far better. He is absent from the body and at home with the Lord. He enters into eternal life in all its fullness.
Christ has not only brought life to light, but also immortality. Immortality refers to the resurrection of the body. When we read in 1 Corinthians 15:53 that “this corruptible must put on incorruption,†we know that even though the body is placed in the grave and returns to dust, yet at the coming of Christ that same body will be raised from the grave and fashioned into a body of glory, similar to that of the Lord Jesus Himself. The OT saints did not have this knowledge. It was brought to us through the appearing of our Savior, Jesus Christ.
If my answeres all sound similar its because you asked similar questions going by your anointed concordance what ever it is u use, since my Strongs and Vines are no good.
Guibox Wrote:
Add to that where does it say that Lazarus was brought back from heaven when Jesusu resurrected him? Where is his story? Where is the evidence of his 'immortal' experience? Why did Jesus turn him from immortal back into mortal with absolutely no scriptural evidence of an explanation of this occurring?
Hey. You can ask Jesus this when your on the great white thrown judgment seat.
Guibox wrote:
Why with such clear teachings and language of the Hebrew and Greek to support these ideas do you base your entire theology around a parable, of whose contents cannot be supported by scripture anywhere else, that isn't even intended to teach about the afterlife?
when are you going to start believing the Bible instead of Greek, orthodox traditions furthered and fed by the Catholic church?
First of all the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek. I am not a catholic, and if you believed the Bible, you would see that there is no such doctrine of annihilation taught any ware in scripture and that you need to be born again to understand them.
I had time to sneak this in as my daughter is now at 7cm so I need to go.
Lovely. Thanks!
Ok Guibox
Lets take a look as according to soma sight this fabulous post of yours.
jg,
\0\0BTW,yo\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0u mentioned 'Hades' as being the place where the demons reside. This is false. The place where the demons reside is 'Tartaros' which is used only the one time in 2 Peter. I figured your concordance was shady and mostly infused with preconceived notions, now I know that for a fact...
Guibox
The concordance and Dictionary I use are Strongs. In addition I can also read and understand Greek. Can you?
So lets look at the word you mentioned here ‘’ Tartaros’’
This is what the strongs def says here.
The New Strong's Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words: tartarŏō ταρταρόω
5020. ταρταρόω tartarŏō, tar-tar-ŏ´-o; from Τάρταρος Tartarŏs, (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: cast down to hell.
Enhanced Strong's Lexicon: 5020 ταρταρόω
5020 ταρταρόω [tartaroo /tar•tar•o•o/] v. From Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); GK 5434; AV translates as “cast down to hell†once. 1 the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews. 2 to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus.
So now Guibox. I ask you. Where is ‘’ Tartaros’’ Located? I will give you a hint. Read the above definition..
Guibox Wrote:
As far as the topic goes,
You might have a bit more credibility if you argued that since the death and resurrection of Jesus righteous man has been given an 'immortal spirit'. Though not accurate, at least you would have biblical scripture and logic to support it.
LOL. How can Jesus be given anything? Guibox. I seek no credibility from you for that would bring me two steps backwards.
To say that man is inherently immortal is a falsehood that cannot be supported by scripture.
The soul will continue for all eternity. As has been proven to you and others many times with the scriptures.
Guibox wrote:
Instead (and I would like you to comment on these please) the Bible says:
1)That immortality is only an attribute of God (1 Timothy 1:16)
I am not sure you understand it but here is what this passage means.
This explains why Paul obtained mercy. It was so that he might be an exhibit of the longsuffering of Jesus Christ. Just as he had been the chief of sinners, so now he would be the chief display of the untiring grace of the Lord. He would be “Exhibit A,†a living example, of divine love rising above the most active hostility, of divine longsuffering exhausting the most varied and persistent antagonism.
Paul’s case would be a pattern. In the printing trade, pattern means a first proof. It signifies a specimen or a sample. Paul’s conversion would be a pattern of what God would do with the nation of Israel when the Deliverer comes out of Zion (Rom. 11:26).
In a more general sense the verse means that none need despair, no matter how wicked they might be. They can console themselves that since the Lord has already saved the chief of sinners, they too can find grace and mercy by coming to Him as penitents. By believing on Him, they too can find everlasting life. To those who reject him, everlasting torment in the lake of fire.
Guibox Wrote:
2) That immortality is something we seek, not something we have (Romans 2:7)
In explaining that judgment will be according to works, Paul says that God will render eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality. As I have already explained in another thread , this does not mean that these people are saved by patient continuance in doing good. That would be another gospel which is what you preach.. No one would naturally live that kind of life, and no one could live it without divine power. Anyone who really fits this description has already been saved by grace through faith. The fact that he seeks for glory, honor, and immortality shows that he has already been born again. The whole tenor of his life shows that he has been converted.
He seeks for the glory of heaven; the honor that comes only from God (John 5:44); the immortality that characterizes the resurrection body (1 Cor. 15:53, 54); the heavenly inheritance, which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading (1 Pet. 1:4).
God will award eternal life to all who manifest this evidence of a conversion experience. Eternal life is spoken of in several ways in the NT. It is a present possession which we receive the moment we are converted (John 5:24). It is a future possession which will be ours when we receive our glorified bodies (here and in Rom. 6:22). Although it is a gift received by faith, it is sometimes associated with rewards for a life of faithfulness (Mark 10:30). All believers will have eternal life, but some will have a greater capacity for enjoying it than others. It means more than endless existence; it is a quality of life, the more abundant life which the Savior promised in John 10:10. It is the very life of Christ Himself (Col. 1:27). For those who are not Born again will receive eternal life in the lake of Fire with Satan and his demons.
Guibox Wrote:
3) That David himself hasn't gone to heaven in any form (Acts 2:29,34)
Peter argues that David could not have been saying these things about himself, because his body had seen corruption. His tomb was well known to the Jews of that day. They knew he had not been raised.
When he wrote the Psalm, David was speaking as a prophet. He remembered that God had promised to raise up One of his descendants to sit on his throne forever. David realized that this One would be the Messiah, and that though He would die, His soul would not be left in the disembodied condition, and His body would not decay.
Now Peter repeats an announcement that must have shocked his Jewish audience. The Messiah of whom David prophesied was Jesus of Nazareth. God had raised Him from among the dead, as the apostles could all testify because they were eyewitnesses to His resurrection. Following His resurrection, the Lord Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God, and now the Holy Spirit had been sent as promised by the Father. This was the explanation of what had happened in Jerusalem earlier in the day.
Had not David also predicted the exaltation of the Messiah? He was not speaking of himself in Psalm 110:1. Instead he was quoting Jehovah as saying to the Messiah, “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.†(Note carefully that verses 33–35 predict a waiting time between the glorification of Christ and His return to punish His enemies and set up His kingdom.)
Guibox wrote:
4) That immortality/eternal life is a gift of God only bestowed on mankind AFTER Christ's giving of it by his resurrection, and not before (John 3:16)
I WAS GOING TO SKIP COMMENTATING ON THIS, but then realized that perhaps you and others here really need to grasp this. This Verse after all is the Gospel. OK, This is one of the best known verses in all the Bible, doubtless because it states the gospel so clearly and simply. It summarizes what the Lord Jesus had been teaching Nicodemus concerning the manner by which the new birth is received. God, we read, so loved the world. The world here includes all mankind. God does not love men’s sins or the wicked world system, but He loves people and is not willing that any should perish.
The extent of His love is shown by the fact that He gave His only begotten Son. God has no other Son like the Lord Jesus. It was an expression of His infinite love that He would be willing to give His unique Son for a race of rebel sinners. This does not mean that everyone is saved. A person must receive what Christ has done for him before God will give him eternal life. Therefore, the words are added, “that whoever believes in Him should not perish.†There is no need for anyone to perish. A way has been provided by which all might be saved, but a person must acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ as personal Savior. When he does this, he has eternal life as a present possession.
I should also note that the word Parish here in the Greek is a A primary particle of qualified negation, meaning that it will go on for ever and ever through all eternity.
So if one is not Born from above, he will forever and ever be in the lake of fire and not perish.
Guibox wrote:
5) That man is given immortality not at death by some inherent nature, but at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51-55)
The answer as I have stated in another thread is in the form of a mystery. As a mystery is a truth previously unknown, but now revealed by God to the apostles and made known through them to us.
We shall not all sleep, that is, not all believers will experience death. Some will be alive when the Lord returns. But whether we have died or are still alive, we shall all be changed. The truth of resurrection itself is not a mystery, since it appears in the OT, but the fact that not all will die and also the change of living saints at the Lord’s Return is something that had never been known before.
The change will take place instantly, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. The last trumpet here does not mean the end of the world, or even the last trumpet mentioned in Revelation. Rather, it refers to the trumpet of God which will sound when Christ comes into the air for His saints (1 Thess. 4:16). When the trumpet sounds, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. What a tremendous moment that will be, when the earth and the sea will yield up the dust of all those who have died trusting in Christ down through the centuries! It is almost impossible for the human mind to take in the magnitude of such an event; yet the humble believer can accept it by faith. I hope I am alive to see this….
I believe that verse 53 refers to the two classes of believers at the time of Christ’s Return. This corruptible refers to those whose bodies have returned to the dust. They will put on incorruption. This mortal, on the other hand, refers to those who are still alive in body but are subject to death. Such bodies will put on immortality.
When the dead in Christ are raised and the living changed with them, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory†(Isa. 25:8).
Many scholars believe this verse may well be a taunt song which believers sing as they rise to meet the Lord in the air. It is as if they mock Death because for them it has lost its sting. They also mock Hades because for them it has lost the battle to keep them as its own. Death holds no terror for them because they know their sins have been forgiven and they stand before God in all the acceptability of His beloved Son. This makes perfect sense to me.
Death would have no sting for anyone if it were not for sin. It is the consciousness of sins unconfessed and unforgiven that makes men afraid to die. If we know our sins are forgiven, we can face death with confidence. If, on the other hand, sin is on the conscience, death is terribleâ€â€the beginning of eternal punishment.
The strength of sin is the law, that is, the law condemns the sinner. It pronounces the doom of all who have failed to obey God’s holy precepts. It has been well said that if there were no sin, there would be no death. And if there were no law, there would be no condemnation.
Guibox wrote:
and finally...
6) That immortality has been brought to life and death has been abolished by the Savior Jesus Christ and not before that (2 Timothy 1:10)
The same gospel that was designed in eternity was revealed in time. It was revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ. During the days of His flesh, He publicly proclaimed the good news of salvation. He taught men that He must die, be buried, and rise from the dead in order that God might righteously save ungodly sinners.
He abolished death. But how can this be, when we know that death is still very common in the world? The thought is that He annulled death, or put it out of commission. Before Christ’s resurrection, death ruled as a cruel tyrant over men. It was a dreaded foe. The fear of death held men in bondage. But the resurrection of the Lord Jesus is a pledge that all who trust in Him will rise from the dead to die no more. It is in this sense that He has annulled death. He has robbed it of its sting. Death is now the messenger of God which brings the soul of the believer to heaven. It is our servant rather than our master.
Not only has the Lord Jesus annulled death, He has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. In the OT period, most men had a very vague and misty idea of life after death. They spoke of departed loved ones as in Sheol, which simply means the invisible state of departed spirits. Although they had a heavenly hope set before them, yet for the most part they did not understand it clearly.
Since the coming of Christ, we have much greater light on this subject. For instance, we know that when a believer dies, his spirit departs to be with Christ, which is far better. He is absent from the body and at home with the Lord. He enters into eternal life in all its fullness.
Christ has not only brought life to light, but also immortality. Immortality refers to the resurrection of the body. When we read in 1 Corinthians 15:53 that “this corruptible must put on incorruption,†we know that even though the body is placed in the grave and returns to dust, yet at the coming of Christ that same body will be raised from the grave and fashioned into a body of glory, similar to that of the Lord Jesus Himself. The OT saints did not have this knowledge. It was brought to us through the appearing of our Savior, Jesus Christ.
If my answeres all sound similar its because you asked similar questions going by your anointed concordance what ever it is u use, since my Strongs and Vines are no good.
Guibox Wrote:
Add to that where does it say that Lazarus was brought back from heaven when Jesusu resurrected him? Where is his story? Where is the evidence of his 'immortal' experience? Why did Jesus turn him from immortal back into mortal with absolutely no scriptural evidence of an explanation of this occurring?
Hey. You can ask Jesus this when your on the great white thrown judgment seat.
Guibox wrote:
Why with such clear teachings and language of the Hebrew and Greek to support these ideas do you base your entire theology around a parable, of whose contents cannot be supported by scripture anywhere else, that isn't even intended to teach about the afterlife?
when are you going to start believing the Bible instead of Greek, orthodox traditions furthered and fed by the Catholic church?
First of all the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek. I am not a catholic, and if you believed the Bible, you would see that there is no such doctrine of annihilation taught any ware in scripture and that you need to be born again to understand them.
