Does the human soul consciously exist following death

[Oscar3]

Sput
Thanks for taking the time to answer my post.
The reason I asked you about the Cross, the Red sea, miracles etc is because I was making a point. You pretty much answered it in your answer about the red sea.

I asked you if the parting of the Red Sea was figurative?

You said ''sput''
I don't know. I wasn't there. Probably not. Try to get back on topic, Oscar. The title of the thread is at the top of the page

.

Now to me the there is no dought in my mind that God parted the Red Sea,
yet your not certain if he did or not.

So my point is this. How do u decide what is figurative and what is not?
How do you know when you should take Jesus seriously or not?
Does God/Jesus say what he means?
Does God/Jesus mean what he says?

Show me your answers with the scriptures including the one about the sould that sins dies so I ccan research them for myself.

 

[mutzrein]

Oscar - while you're doing some research, how about these?

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Mark 12:26-27 Now about the dead risingâ€â€have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sput
Thanks for taking the time to answer my post.
The reason I asked you about the Cross, the Red sea, miracles etc is because I was making a point. You pretty much answered it in your answer about the red sea.

I asked you if the parting of the Red Sea was figurative?

Now to me the there is no dought in my mind that God parted the Red Sea,
yet your not certain if he did or not.

Since my Bible is probably the same as yours I read what you read about this event. To my knowledge the parting of the Red Sea was an actual event. It had no specific 'message' for the hearer or the reader and so would not be used to convey something in a metaphorical sense.

So my point is this. How do u decide what is figurative and what is not?
How do you know when you should take Jesus seriously or not?
Does God/Jesus say what he means?
Does God/Jesus mean what he says?

I know of no place in the Bible that plainly states, "This is figurative", or, "This is literal." Determining what IS figurative and what IS NOT figurative comes about through study. I mentioned previously about established facts and consistencies in the Bible. While the following is another topic, a good example of 'consistency v inconsistency’ is the oft-raised 'soul sleep' debate. There are MANY examples in the scriptures where the word 'sleep' is used to describe the dead …so many, in fact, that it establishes in one’s mind that the dead ARE indeed in their graves 'sleeping'. In effect it is telling us that the dead are presently in their graves and no place else. Check it out for yourself. The analogy for sleep=death abound in the Bible.

And yet, someone comes along later and says, "Hey, this ‘sleep’ business can't be right ...doesn't Paul tell us in 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord ...?" Then, the already established scriptures concerning the dead 'sleeping' in their graves are altered to accommodate that ONE text from Paul ...even though Paul himself acknowledges "them also which sleep in Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14)."

Furthermore, those who actually UNDERSTAND the meaning of 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 and KNOW that it does NOT contradict the previous concept of the dead 'sleeping' are then touted by others as being ‘false teachers’. The mind boggles!

Show me your answers with the scriptures including the one about the sould that sins dies so I ccan research them for myself.

Check your Bible for CONSISTENCIES, Oscar. If a text appears to contradict the consistent and established scriptures then apply the figurative or metaphorical approach. Does the text THEN make more sense? Some scriptures are more obviously metaphorical than are others. I would give the same advice to our friends, jg and Solo, since they are quite oblivious to the obvious and therefore have great difficulty in changing their traditional mindset. They ignore the scriptures that PLAINLY tell us that the lost perish (John 3:16 and others) and instead preach to us that the lost DO NOT perish. It’s far easier for them to instead cry out “false teachers!†Who are the false teachers ...? One doesn't need to be Einstein to figure that one out.

By the way, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20

 

[Jay T]

As an addendum to the above. The lost DO NOT attain immortality. Only the saved do. To receive LITERAL (key word) eternal torment one would have to have immortality. The lost DO NOT! Why is this SO difficult for some of you to grasp?

#1.) Point.......One must be willing to believe what God has said.

The Bible says that God ALONE has immortality....and NO ONE else can have it, UNTIL....the resurrection day.....

1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
*******************************************************

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Oscar3]

Oscar - while you're doing some research, how about these?

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This verse is speaking of Going from Spiritual Death (where you are at right now) into everlasting life when one accepts The atonement of Jesus Christ, God incarnite by Grace through faith.

Mark 12:26-27 Now about the dead risingâ€â€have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"

Jesus quotes from the Law-the Book of Exodus-to make His point. God said I am the God of the three patriarchs mentioned, not "I was their God, but now they are dead." He still is their God because they are still alive. Their souls not only live after death, but their bodies will be raised anew as well.Mutz. Don't try and make something out of nothing.

 

[Oscar3]

Check your Bible for CONSISTENCIES, Oscar. If a text appears to contradict the consistent and established scriptures then apply the figurative or metaphorical approach. Does the text THEN make more sense? Some scriptures are more obviously metaphorical than are others. I would give the same advice to our friends, jg and Solo, since they are quite oblivious to the obvious and therefore have great difficulty in changing their traditional mindset. They ignore the scriptures that PLAINLY tell us that the lost perish (John 3:16 and others) and instead preach to us that the lost DO NOT perish. It’s far easier for them to instead cry out “false teachers!†Who are the false teachers ...? One doesn't need to be Einstein to figure that one out.

By the way, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20

Sputnik and Jay T
Eze 18:20 is a metaphore. Everyone knows this.
Here are some verses that are not.


Rev 14:9-11 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.â€Â

Matt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Note: Jay T….The Greek word for destroy is ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi)…Lest you think it means annihilate this word in this context means ‘’ to declare that one must be put to death. IE metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell.’’ Strongs enhanced concordance

Luke 12:4 And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! Like I said. AS Soon as one is born he has immortality. Its only a matter of where he will spend it. With Ellen G White or with Lord of Host, Jesus Christ


"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the

prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[Jay T]

To exist in hellfire, one must be 'immortal', meaning not subject to death.

Interesting, considering that ONLY the Righteous will gain immortality.

Eternal life, is promised ONLY to those who have Jesus Christ as their Savior.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Why no voices heard from hell ?

 

[SputnikBoy]

I don't know about you, Jay T, but I give up.

 

[jgredline]

To exist in hellfire, one must be 'immortal', meaning not subject to death.

Interesting, considering that ONLY the Righteous will gain immortality.

Eternal life, is promised ONLY to those who have Jesus Christ as their Savior.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Why no voices heard from hell ?

Jay T
The reason you do not hear voices from Hell is simply because they are sepperated for ''all eternity'' from GODas the scriptures teach In matt 25, Rev 20.....
Make no mistake about it. There will be weeping and nashing of teeth, but they will only be heard among themselves....

And by the way, when the bible says only God has immortality, as I have already explained to you what it means, I will say it again since you missed it the first three times I told you.
It simply means that God has always been and always will be. He is the only one who is eternal from a stand point that he had no begining......The moment we humans are born, we have immortality as the bible teaches. For some it will be in heaven with Jesus, and for others it will be for ''all eternity''
in hell just as Jesus said it would be........

 

[guibox]

The moment we humans are born, we have immortality as the bible teaches. For some it will be in heaven with Jesus, and for others it will be for ''all eternity''
in hell just as Jesus said it would be......

Okay...I wasn't aware that basic assumptions were gospel truth. You still haven't proved that man is inherently immortal, never mind the wicked. Instead you assume this and then use Revelation 14 and 20 to back it up. Your logic is backwards, jg. Your assumptions are incorrect and your logic is flawed.

It is time to put it all behind us now. Actually, I have decided to stop replying to your posts and put oscar on 'ignore', because you are a mod, I cannot put you on ignore. I'm just sick of dealing with you guys and your sarcasm and down right rudeness most of the time. Trying to talk to you guys on areas such as this where we disagree is akin to getting a root canal without anaesthetic.

If you should so choose to engage me in a civilized debate, jg, please PM me and we can talk. Other than that reading the posts of the two of you (as well as what you are both allowed to get away with most of the time by the powers that be), is making me tired.

Now you guys can talk all you want about how much God hates sinners that He wants to create a hell for no purpose but to punish them and how much it pleases Him to allow them to suffer second and third degree burns (depending on how bad they were) for trillions upon trillions of years. It is sad that you believe that this is the God of the Bible and the 'truth'. I hope someday you will realize that basing your theology on metaphorical passages with a strong Catholic orthodox interpretation to cement it is not an appropriate or accurate way to know what the word is saying and who God is.

 

[jgredline]

Okay...I wasn't aware that basic assumptions were gospel truth. You still haven't proved that man is inherently immortal, never mind the wicked. Instead you assume this and then use Revelation 14 and 20 to back it up. Your logic is backwards, jg. Your assumptions are incorrect and your logic is flawed.

It is time to put it all behind us now. Actually, I have decided to stop replying to your posts and put oscar on 'ignore', because you are a mod, I cannot put you on ignore. I'm just sick of dealing with you guys and your sarcasm and down right rudeness most of the time. Trying to talk to you guys on areas such as this where we disagree is akin to getting a root canal without anaesthetic.

If you should so choose to engage me in a civilized debate, jg, please PM me and we can talk. Other than that reading the posts of the two of you (as well as what you are both allowed to get away with most of the time by the powers that be), is making me tired.

Now you guys can talk all you want about how much God hates sinners that He wants to create a hell for no purpose but to punish them and how much it pleases Him to allow them to suffer second and third degree burns (depending on how bad they were) for trillions upon trillions of years. It is sad that you believe that this is the God of the Bible and the 'truth'. I hope someday you will realize that basing your theology on metaphorical passages with a strong Catholic orthodox interpretation to cement it is not an appropriate or accurate way to know what the word is saying and who God is.

Sometimes the reality of the Truth hits you and it hurts....
My theology is backed by the scriptures of the Holy Bible and not some Ellen G White heresy.....

The fact is this. Between SOLO, OSCAR AND Myself we have annihalated your theology and your false doctrine on annihalation......

Its easy to put me on ignore. Simply stop logging in to the forum.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I never thought I'd be saying this about you, jg, but shame on you. I totally agree with guibox' sentiments - not because we might be on the same team but because they are true.

 

[jgredline]

Sput
Its ok....I have no problem with anything that I have said or taught here as it is inline with the scriptures....None of you have been able to prove otherwise.....

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sput
Its ok....I have no problem with anything that I have said or taught here as it is inline with the scriptures....None of you have been able to prove otherwise.....

Do the lost die or don't they, jg? What you and others are saying is that the dead are in fact alive. Zombies, perhaps ...???

You are also saying that the (lost) dead are ‘alive’ (?) merely to satisfy the masochistic desire of a God who set up an area specifically to watch them writhe in agony. Furthermore, this is a doctrine that the forum wholeheartedly endorses. Did I just accurately describe the mainstream concept of God and hell accurately, jg? If not, where did I go wrong?

I'm serious for an answer, by the way.

 

[Oscar3]

Sput
I know this was not directed at me, but this is an open forum.

Do the lost die or don't they, jg? What you and others are saying is that the dead are in fact alive. Zombies, perhaps ...???

While the fleshly body returns to the earth, dust to dust, the soul will go to hell for eternity to burn, while the spirit will go to heaven to be with Jesus.

You are also saying that the (lost) dead are ‘alive’ (?) merely to satisfy the masochistic desire of a God who set up an area specifically to watch them writhe in agony. Furthermore, this is a doctrine that the forum wholeheartedly endorses. Did I just accurately describe the mainstream concept of God and hell accurately, jg? If not, where did I go wrong?

I'm serious for an answer, by the way.

Yes, this is what the bible teaches. If you have a problem with that, take it up with God. He wrote the rules and yes he did create Hell a place of eternal torment to watch YOU, Guibox, UNread Typo, Jay T, mUTZ, MEC, DREW, TAN NINETY, CP MIKE, JOHN THE BAPTIST, GEORGES, Poke and others like you ''UNLESS YOU REPENT OF YOUR FALSE TEACHING AND BELIEFS''.

lIKE it or not, this is what the scriptures say.

 

[Jay T]

I don't know about you, Jay T, but I give up.

Please don't give in to satan's attack's !

Satan is using these people, to discourage you from presenting the truth of God.

They have no love for Jesus Christ, and they prove it in their words.
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

REMEMBER....Jesus said that if they hate HIM, they will also persecute you.

 

[Oscar3]

Please don't give in to satan's attack's !

Satan is using these people, to discourage you from presenting the truth of God.

They have no love for Jesus Christ, and they prove it in their words.
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

REMEMBER....Jesus said that if they hate HIM, they will also persecute you.

LOL.
Jay T. You sound just like your father the devil. Check it out.

1 3 The serpent was clever, more clever than any wild animal God had made. He spoke to the Woman: “Do I understand that God told you not to eat from any tree in the garden?â€Â
2–3 The Woman said to the serpent, “Not at all. We can eat from the trees in the garden. It’s only about the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘Don’t eat from it; don’t even touch it or you’ll die.’ â€Â
4–5 The serpent told the Woman, “You won’t die. God knows that the moment you eat from that tree, you’ll see what’s really goin on. You’ll be just like God, knowing everything, ranging all the way from good to evil.â€Â

 

[mutzrein]

LOL.
Jay T. You sound just like your father the devil. Check it out.

C'mon MODS - how long does a 'Christian' forum have to put up with this garbage?

 

[Judy]

C'mon MODS - how long does a 'Christian' forum have to put up with this garbage?

So tell me what is the difference in what Jay T said and what oacar said?? Where is your outrage in what Jay T said?

 

[Oscar3]

This outline is dedicated to:

1. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, who were thrown into a furnace of fire, yet were not consumed. Dan 3:19
2. Moses, who saw the burning bush (pictured right) that was not consumed by fire. Ex 3:2
3. And to God, who can do all things!

http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm