Soul Sleep yes or no?

[LeviR]

What then becomes of their “hell”?

The translators of the KJV and other translations were all sold on their idea of “Immortal soul” and “hell”. And it is shown in their translation.
31 times translated as “hell”, 31 times translated as “grave” and 3 times as “pit” in the OT of the KJV.

After all, since man was supposedly given an immortal soul rather than becoming a living soul, that immortal soul must go somewhere when the body dies.

Gen 25:8
Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

The “ghost” of Abraham was not gathered to his people. Abraham, the man, died.

The NKJV gets it right:

NKJV
Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people

They used the word “ghost” as a way to personify what they believe is a “real person” without physical form.

The damage done by the RCC lives on.

The word shoel should be understood as the place where the dead go. Those who are no longer alive and living. It’s the grave.

The RCC is ignorant of the figurative language of scripture. That’s why they believe they are eating the actual flesh and blood of Christ every Sunday. And why they pray to dead “saints”.
They pray to nonexistent ghosts.

 

[Hopeful 2]

For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. (2 Cor. 3:4)

Tent, carrying case...about the same importance to me.
Something to be left behind, at the return of Christ Jesus.

 

[Hopeful 2]

For Paul, immortality means having a body prepared for him by resurrection from the dead.
If he were not raised from the dead to be clothed with a new body mortality could not be swallowed up by life. There would be no life.
If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not raised, and if Christ is not raised, faith is worthless.
We all die, return to dust, and stay there.

You do realize, I hope, that Paul, and his body, are two different things.
Whether or not Paul is in a vessel makes no difference...in the long run.
It is Paul that will endure the final judgement, and not his body.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Nevertheless, the spirit returns to God, and we get a new angelic body.

Yes, in resurrection, same as Jesus.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

For Paul, immortality means having a body prepared for him by resurrection from the dead.
If he were not raised from the dead to be clothed with a new body mortality could not be swallowed up by life. There would be no life.
If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not raised, and if Christ is not raised, faith is worthless.
We all die, return to dust, and stay there.

Yes, a new glorious, immortal body instead of a wandering ghost.

 

[LeviR]

Yes, a new glorious, immortal body instead of a wandering ghost.

I don’t believe in ghosts.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What then becomes of their “hell”?

The translators of the KJV and other translations were all sold on their idea of “Immortal soul” and “hell”. And it is shown in their translation.
31 times translated as “hell”, 31 times translated as “grave” and 3 times as “pit” in the OT of the KJV.

After all, since man was supposedly given an immortal soul rather than becoming a living soul, that immortal soul must go somewhere when the body dies.

Gen 25:8
Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

The “ghost” of Abraham was not gathered to his people. Abraham, the man, died.

The NKJV gets it right:

NKJV
Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people

They used the word “ghost” as a way to personify what they believe is a “real person” without physical form.

The damage done by the RCC lives on.

The word shoel should be understood as the place where the dead go. Those who are no longer alive and living. It’s the grave.

The RCC is ignorant of the figurative language of scripture. That’s why they believe they are eating the actual flesh and blood of Christ every Sunday. And why they pray to dead “saints”.
They pray to nonexistent ghosts.

Yeah, I'd say the worst part of KJV is the translation of spirit into "ghost". In common folk lores, a ghost is a person who died an untimely demise with unfinished business on earth, they're able to communite with the living through some uncanny, supernatural, often scary ways to finish what they've left behind, until then they're condemned to be wandering around on earth without a body. Prince Hamlet's father in Shakespears' Hamlet is a good example of this. But this is neither a modern belief or a Medieval belief, it could be dated all the way back to the first century, even further before that. You might remember King Saul channelling prophet Samuel's ghost, and he got punished by God for that; when the resurrected Jesus appeared to the disciples, doubting Thomas thought he was seeing a ghost. Same as the question arose from this belief in the Corinthian church. So "ghost" is the essence of a dead person, that's the opposite of what the Holy Spirit is - life giving. Paul had to educate the Corinthians on that in 1 Cor. 15.

But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” (1 Cor. 15:35)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I don’t believe in ghosts.

Neither do I. At least not on earth. The closest analogy is the simulation theory, that this world is God's simulation, it's like the Matrix, the end of your mortal life is the end of your player character's life cycle, after that you return to God, get a review of your life and receive your reward accordingly.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But the RCC says, “no, no, that’s not right. Only the body of man returns to dust, the man himself, the “real person” goes to be immediately with God.”

That’s because they twisted and added to the words of man’s creation by saying “man was given an immortal soul” rather than the actual words that say “the man became a living soul.”

That came from Platonic gnostic philosophy, in Hopeful2's term, the body is merely a "carrying case" of the soul. One of the core belief in the Nicene Creed is the "resurrection of the body", yet somehow it was changed into "eternality of the soul". A human being is not a snail, a conch or a turtle, you know, a human being is not ane ethereal ghost trapped in a shell. And it's not even scientific - ever heard of the gut-brain axis? The microbiota in your gut has a direct impact on your neural system, what you think as your "soul" - your consciousness, intelligence, emotion, memory, all of the above - is not isolated.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That came from Platonic gnostic philosophy, in Hopeful2's term, the body is merely a "carrying case" of the soul. One of the core belief in the Nicene Creed is the "resurrection of the body", yet somehow it was changed into "eternality of the soul". A human being is not a snail, a conch or a turtle, you know, a human being is not ane ethereal ghost trapped in a shell. And it's not even scientific - ever heard of the gut-brain axis? The microbiota in your gut has a direct impact on your neural system, what you think as your "soul" - your consciousness, intelligence, emotion, memory, all of the above - is not isolated.Doesn't that show the Nicene Creed is wrong ?

Where in the bible does it say "the body" will be resurrected ?

 

[reddogs]

That came from Platonic gnostic philosophy, in Hopeful2's term, the body is merely a "carrying case" of the soul. One of the core belief in the Nicene Creed is the "resurrection of the body", yet somehow it was changed into "eternality of the soul". A human being is not a snail, a conch or a turtle, you know, a human being is not ane ethereal ghost trapped in a shell. And it's not even scientific - ever heard of the gut-brain axis? The microbiota in your gut has a direct impact on your neural system, what you think as your "soul" - your consciousness, intelligence, emotion, memory, all of the above - is not isolated.

Hmm, will have to look at that, hadn't caught that before.

 

[reddogs]

Where in the bible does it say "the body" will be resurrected ?

What did Jesus show to the disciples when He came out of the tomb, that He was risen bodily. Remember what He told Thomas who doubted...

 

[Free]

Where in the bible does it say "the body" will be resurrected ?

Luk 24:36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!”
Luk 24:37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
Luk 24:40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. (ESV)

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
1Co 15:15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Co 15:19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. (ESV)

Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. (ESV)

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. (ESV)

That our physical bodies will be raised is absolutely without question, just as it is that they are in some way changed spiritually while still remaining physical:

1Co 15:35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?”
1Co 15:36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
1Co 15:39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
1Co 15:40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. (ESV)

 

[Hopeful 2]

What did Jesus show to the disciples when He came out of the tomb, that He was risen bodily. Remember what He told Thomas who doubted...

How does that apply to us who will be raised with NEW bodies ?
The vessel is no more than a carrying case.
It has no will, or any ability to make any choices.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Luk 24:36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!”
Luk 24:37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
Luk 24:40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. (ESV)

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
1Co 15:15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Co 15:19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. (ESV)

Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. (ESV)

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. (ESV)

That our physical bodies will be raised is absolutely without question, just as it is that they are in some way changed spiritually while still remaining physical:

1Co 15:35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?”
1Co 15:36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
1Co 15:39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
1Co 15:40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. (ESV)

Jesus' body was raised from the dead.
We, however, will have new bodies at our resurrections to eternal life.
Your Phil 3:21 citing sums it up.
1 Cor 15:37 too..."And what you sow is not the body that is to be,..."
For me, I will never again see the vessel I have now, after I die.

As for those raised to eternal damnation, I don't know what sort of vessel they will inherit.

 

[Free]

Jesus' body was raised from the dead.
We, however, will have new bodies at our resurrections to eternal life.

Which will be the same as his, which the passages I gave clearly state or imply.

Your Phil 3:21 citing sums it up.

Exactly. Our physical bodies will be like his physical body.

1 Cor 15:37 too..."And what you sow is not the body that is to be,..."
For me, I will never again see the vessel I have now, after I die.

However you look at it, you will have a physical body, and it will allow you to be recognizable as you currently are.

As for those raised to eternal damnation, I don't know what sort of vessel they will inherit.

It would have to be the same, if they are to be alive for eternity.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Which will be the same as his, which the passages I gave clearly state or imply.

Our resurrection bodies will not be the same bodies that were buried at our vessel's deaths.

Exactly. Our physical bodies will be like his physical body.
However you look at it, you will have a physical body, and it will allow you to be recognizable as you currently are.
It would have to be the same, if they are to be alive for eternity.