E-85 and Gasoline blend

[stovebolts]

Ok everyone, so I've been doing a little experiment with my American made 2002 non Flex Fuel Vehicle that I'd like to share.

Now then, I drive just short of 100 miles a day, so gas is a huge expense for me, and every nickle I can save puts an extra nickle in my pocket. Considering that E-85 consistently runs about .50 cents a gallon less than gasoline, I thought I'd give it a shot

Ok, so I normally get between 27.5 - 28.1 mpg on a regular basis. I've seen 26 here and there, but it's certainly not the norm. My first tank of E-85 I dropped to 25mpg. My second tank I dropped to 21mpg, my third tank I dropped to 19.8 mpg. Not a good investment right off the bat, and by the third tank the car was running horrible. Well, I came to find out that when you run E-85 in a car that normally runs gasoline, the E-85 scrubs the tank and at about 500 miles it clogs your fuel filter.

So, without further a due, I changed the fuel filter. Yup, that baby was clogged so tight nothing was getting through. I mean, when I disconnected the fuel line on the "out" side, it barely dribbled. I've never seen a filter clogged that bad before! Thank goodness, after I replaced the fuel filter, the mpg came back up to around 24mpg.

My partner and I did some math and determined that I needed to get just over 25mpg to break even and anything over 25mpg would be cost savings. I like cost savings. Needless to say, I've never been able to get better than mid 24mpg.

So, what was my solution? Blend it :D Now then, I have a 12 - 13 gallon tank, and through trial and error, 5 gallons of E-85 and 7 gallons of gasoline seems about the perfect blend and I'm back up to just over 27mpg.

BTW, with this blend, the engine light only comes on if I gun it really hard (E-85 causes a non flex fuel vehicle to run lean), the car runs great though, and it still has a lot of hp.

So lets get into cost savings. I fill up twice a week and I save about $2.50 per fill up. That's roughly $5.00 a week and roughly $20 a month. Hey, I'm not going to turn down an extra $18 - $20 when it's that easy to get. ;) and, I'm doing my part to get us off oil

As far as running e-85 straight, I've got a 1968 Camaro that when tuned in should be in the 500 hp club. It will never see gasoline again since it's high compression is perfect for the 105 octane E-85 and many racers are running straight E-85 now days. Right now E-85 is about $2.29 and 110 octane racing fuel is above $7, and E-85 runs better in high performance cars than the racing fuel, especially with cars with turbo's. :yes

 

[Mike]

Jeff, no one person should be able to dissect the original language of the Bible, his computer and his truck. That's too much. This really makes me want to go home and kick the dog. :gah The righteousness of the simple mind, only goes so far. When I read about your knowledge and abilities, it only serves as a reminder of my lack of them.

Do me a favor. If there are any other areas of proficiency you have, please keep them to yourself. I don't want to have to resent you, but I will if you give me any more reasons to. :gah :gah :gah

 

[Caroline H]

Why is it the dog's fault?

 

[jasoncran]

e-85 isnt avaible in florida. and btw the fuel pump may be next as those werent meant for e-85 prior to flex fuel. then will pump but the bypass will clog open.

i have two flex fuel vehicles so i can use e-85, my ford ranger was the first one that i bought to have the flex fuel. my nissan can run on that as well.

ironically only the bp stations here at one time did the e-85 thing but something from the state senate (a tax?) stopped that. cant recall why they no longer do the e-85 here.

 

[Pard]

I see a problem down the road...

We had to do a complete rebuild on a guys car who was running that ethanol junk on a non-ethanol care. Ethanol is an alcohol and it literally eats your engine. Everything that touched the fuel and was not made of metal had to be replaced. All the plastics and the seals and the lube were destroyed.

Be careful... is $240 a year in savings worth the risk of having your engine fail on you? The guy got lucky, by the way. He had had the fuel pump replaced and the tank a year before and they put in stuff that was treated with a special coating to prevent ethanol from eating up these parts. However, in a normal car without this coating, I imagine the pump and even the plastic liners in your tank would go as well.

I'd avoid running it in the '68, my auto teacher has a Nova from the same year, he has to avoid the regular petrol that has the ethanol in it because the older parts are way more sensitive to the ethanol than newer plastics are.

We have E-85 here and there, but it's very hard to find. That being said, if you ever put diesel in your gas car by accident, a blend of E-85 and the 108 race fuel will clean that sucker out in a jiffy. My friend put diesel in his mom's car. We called AAA and they got a guy there. He told us he could tow it back home, he was really no help at all. Anyways, I remembered that a guy had his car towed to our shop and he had diesel in his car. My shop teacher had me do a run down tot he station and I got two gallons of E-85 and two gallons of 108. We took out about four gallons of the diesel and replaced it with the high octane stuff. That thing was running fine by the end of the day. So we had the AAA guy take a few gallons of diesel out and bid him farewell, stuck in some E-85 (luckily we were at the only BP station in town) and some 108 (One of my friends keeps a tank of 108 in his Nova), BAM! worked fine after that

 

[jasoncran]

does anyone see something odd here? i'm no consipracy nut but bp is doing the solar thing and is the largest supplier of that stuff in the country of spain and europe and is ahead on the e-85 initiative then the spill occurs.

google bp solar and you will see that they are big!

 

[stovebolts]

Jeff, no one person should be able to dissect the original language of the Bible, his computer and his truck. That's too much. This really makes me want to go home and kick the dog. :gah The righteousness of the simple mind, only goes so far. When I read about your knowledge and abilities, it only serves as a reminder of my lack of them.

Do me a favor. If there are any other areas of proficiency you have, please keep them to yourself. I don't want to have to resent you, but I will if you give me any more reasons to. :gah :gah :gah

he he he, I don't own a truck

 

[stovebolts]

e-85 isnt avaible in florida. and btw the fuel pump may be next as those werent meant for e-85 prior to flex fuel. then will pump but the bypass will clog open.

i have two flex fuel vehicles so i can use e-85, my ford ranger was the first one that i bought to have the flex fuel. my nissan can run on that as well.

ironically only the bp stations here at one time did the e-85 thing but something from the state senate (a tax?) stopped that. cant recall why they no longer do the e-85 here.

Hey Jason, I was hoping you'd chime in

I actually read a very well documented article where they took a non FFV, 2000 GM truck and ran e85 in it for over 100,000 miles and the fuel pump and lines were in better shape than another 2000 GM truck that ran straight gasoline. Now I can't find the article Anyway, they said something about cars that were made post mid to late 80's would be able to handle the e-85 because it was mid to late 80's when they started putting ethanol into regular gasoline (regular gas is currently up to 10% ethanol). so they made the fuel pumps, lines and injectors able to handle the ethanol. Now, I only know what I read about GM cars, not Ford, Chrysler Toyota etc. Hey, if it aint GM, it aint American (ok, Ford and Chrysler are considered American too ;) )

One thing I did read about the fuel pumps though, was since e-85 has more oxygen, which causes the engine to run lean, GM put some sort of a float?? into the fuel pump to gauge the density which could differentiate between gasoline and e-85 and thus, send the correct signal to the injectors to have them stay open longer to richen it up.

As far as BP being the only station in your area to carry alternative fuels, you know better than to get me going on that Exxon / Mobil and Shell both refused to carry e-85, and it looks like they got their way. When was the last time you heard, or seen a GM hydrogen commercial, let alone E-85

 

[stovebolts]

Hey Pard

I see a problem down the road...

We had to do a complete rebuild on a guys car who was running that ethanol junk on a non-ethanol care. Ethanol is an alcohol and it literally eats your engine. Everything that touched the fuel and was not made of metal had to be replaced. All the plastics and the seals and the lube were destroyed.

What year? Just a guess, but was it early 80's?

Be careful... is $240 a year in savings worth the risk of having your engine fail on you? The guy got lucky, by the way. He had had the fuel pump replaced and the tank a year before and they put in stuff that was treated with a special coating to prevent ethanol from eating up these parts. However, in a normal car without this coating, I imagine the pump and even the plastic liners in your tank would go as well.

I don't think it's a coating but rather the material itself. Ethanol will dry out rubber or plastic which is why you don't want to run it in older cars. This is why if you run even normal gasoline (which has up to 10% ethanol) in an older lawn mower, weed whacker etc, the diaphragm's wears out quickly. Once you replace it with a newer diaphram, it's a-ok because it's not made entirely from a petroleum based product.

I'd avoid running it in the '68, my auto teacher has a Nova from the same year, he has to avoid the regular petrol that has the ethanol in it because the older parts are way more sensitive to the ethanol than newer plastics are.

:D Everything in my 68 is new from the fuel cell, fuel lines, fuel pump to the carb. I'll be just fine ;) As far as you're shop teacher goes, all gasoline has up to 10% ethanol, so it's only a matter of time before he has problems. That being said, it will take a lot longer with 10%, than 85%. Here's a cool link you might want to share with your teacher :yes

http://www.raceone85.com/
http://iqlearningsystems.com/ethanol/racers.html

In naturally aspirated applications, expect horsepower levels that are at least 5% higher after switching to E85 and making the necessary adjustments to the engine, carburetor, and fuel delivery system. Carburetor builder Mike Ross has reported much higher gains on the dyno when making the necessary adjustments--up to almost 20% more horespower over racing gasoline. You can also expect significant increases in low-end torque. Engine oil temperatures run cooler as well. Rickie Dyer reports that those running forced induction and nitrous oxide injection systems are finding tremendous gains, even on pump E85. Some have seen more than 200 horsepower gains at the rear wheels in high-horsepower applications. In time, as engine builders continue to test new components on E85, it is probable that even higher gains will be realized

We have E-85 here and there, but it's very hard to find. That being said, if you ever put diesel in your gas car by accident, a blend of E-85 and the 108 race fuel will clean that sucker out in a jiffy. My friend put diesel in his mom's car. We called AAA and they got a guy there. He told us he could tow it back home, he was really no help at all. Anyways, I remembered that a guy had his car towed to our shop and he had diesel in his car. My shop teacher had me do a run down tot he station and I got two gallons of E-85 and two gallons of 108. We took out about four gallons of the diesel and replaced it with the high octane stuff. That thing was running fine by the end of the day. So we had the AAA guy take a few gallons of diesel out and bid him farewell, stuck in some E-85 (luckily we were at the only BP station in town) and some 108 (One of my friends keeps a tank of 108 in his Nova), BAM! worked fine after that

That's cool! I'll keep that in mind for sure. BTW, you're buddy with the racing fuel, e-85 is 105 octane and costs about 5 dollars a gallon less than racing fuel and gives better results in high compression engines. Think of it like this. Lets say it costs $120 to replace the fuel lines to handle alcohol. At a savings of over 5 bucks a gallon, how long would it take you to break even?... not very long if you like to drive your hot rod ;)

 

[Vic C.]

Why is it the dog's fault?

I'd give Mike a warning for that, but there's nothing in the TOS citing cruelty to animals. :D

 

[Vic C.]

does anyone see something odd here? i'm no consipracy nut but bp is doing the solar thing and is the largest supplier of that stuff in the country of spain and europe and is ahead on the e-85 initiative then the spill occurs.

google bp solar and you will see that they are big!

I don't see the connection you are making? Are you suggesting BP caused the explosion that is causing them to spend billions to clean, all in the name of promoting their solar and E-85 ventures?

That seems a little extreme.

 

[Mike]

[quote="Caroline H":1mq0rlui]Why is it the dog's fault?

I'd give Mike a warning for that, but there's nothing in the TOS citing cruelty to animals. :D[/quote:1mq0rlui]
If I owned a cat, I'd definitely take the frustrations of my own inadequacies out on it first, but since I don't, I'll kick the dog. ;)

 

[Vic C.]

LOL. :biglol Um, should your wife be a bit nervous? :D

Anyway. don't cut yourself short, Jeff really is Einstein with a new body.

 

[Pard]

Jeff,

It was a 92 or 93 Audi or something. One of those Naz... I mean German cars.

I know about the 10% ethanol in gas, but around here we have this middle of the road gas with about 30% ethanol and they pass it off as regular gas. I try to avoid it as well, it's the same price as the 10% is else where, I'd rather pay the same price and get the real deal

I love what ethanol does to lawnmowers. Every spring me and a bud get my truck and drive around town picking up "broken" lawnmowers. People are to lazy/incompetent to clean the filters and replace the gaskets. We actually picked up one mower that needed a new fuel jet (that's like, what? 3$, tops?) and we sold it back tot he same dude a week later for 120$! :rolling

The bud with the 108 has a dad who owns the only shop in town that sells race fuel, so I think he will stick with it.

I'm eyeing this new, well its old but, '04 Silverado. It's got the 6.0l engine with that cyclone engine do-hicky Chevy likes so much. With 96 gas that thing ought to hit 300hp stock... Plus it has flex fuel, and with e-85 running at 106, plus a cool intake and a new exhuast

 

[jasoncran]

does anyone see something odd here? i'm no consipracy nut but bp is doing the solar thing and is the largest supplier of that stuff in the country of spain and europe and is ahead on the e-85 initiative then the spill occurs.

google bp solar and you will see that they are big!

I don't see the connection you are making? Are you suggesting BP caused the explosion that is causing them to spend billions to clean, all in the name of promoting their solar and E-85 ventures?

That seems a little extreme.

negatory another oil company sabotaged it, or obummer did it. lets just say that obama is very pro oil, and well pm me why i believe that.

 

[jasoncran]

jeff the float thing isnt actually a float but a sensor used that measure the amount of alcohol in the fuel and adjust, all the newer flex fuel systems have them, and they fail sometimes 500 usd to fix just for the part. we have replaced a few.

the older prior to idea of flex fuel thing is where you get the fuel pump problem.

 

[Vic C.]

does anyone see something odd here? i'm no consipracy nut but bp is doing the solar thing and is the largest supplier of that stuff in the country of spain and europe and is ahead on the e-85 initiative then the spill occurs.

google bp solar and you will see that they are big!

I don't see the connection you are making? Are you suggesting BP caused the explosion that is causing them to spend billions to clean, all in the name of promoting their solar and E-85 ventures?

That seems a little extreme.

negatory another oil company sabotaged it, or obummer did it. lets just say that obama is very pro oil, and well pm me why i believe that.

It's ok. I understand now. :yes

 

[Rick W]

Alrighty Jeff, nice experiment
So how many people are going to fiddle around enough to find the right "recipe" that fits their vehicle the best? Automotive gurus like you perhaps but all the regular guys or gals simply want to pull up to the pump, get their fuel and ease on down the road. And if/when the filter clogs up I seriously doubt many are going to replace the filter themselves but rather pay the shop to do it. Wouldn't a trip to the shop be an expense to be figured in with the calculation for prospective savings?
I mean, 3 tanks and the filter's clogged. That's not really an encouraging word for ethanol.
I'd say try it again with pure E85 and see how long a new filter lasts but then, it's not my vehicle being stressed either.
Or gasoline-only filters have a finer "mesh" or pores. Are there filters made specifically for E85? If the mesh has to allow larger particulates to pass to prevent premature clogging then those particulates will be getting into the engine.

 

[jasoncran]

rick the newer flex fuel vehicles take that into account, i dont reccomend e-85 for older vehicles, just like i wouldnt reccomend diesel/oil mix for new trucks after tier 4, and also no veggie oil in electronic injected diesel engines.

 

[Rick W]

Ah, thanks Jason

Hey Jeff,
Did you do an autopsy on that filter to see what kind of stuff was in there?
Just curious.