ECF?

[donadams]

ECF?

Should we listen to the early church fathers?

Call no man father?

Fundamentalists say no!
Catholics say yes!

What does Jesus and scripture say?

Matt 16:17-19
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 18:17-18
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 28:19-20
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Acts 8:31 the eunuch had scripture, God sent An apostle to teach him.

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission!

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; see Isa 22:21-22
(Keys) Matt 26:17-19

 

[donadams]

Matt 23:9
Call no man father? Jesus is condemning pride and spiritual pride of the Pharisees?

Or is this absolute?

God calls men father!

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jesus calls men father!

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Mary calls men father!

Lk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Peter calls men father!

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

Acts 3:22 Moses said unto the fathers…

The stephen calls men father!

Acts 7 Stephen quotes the fathers over and over!

The Bible calls men father!

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.


Jn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

Jesus does not rebuke her for calling men father!


Then there is spiritual fathers!

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 Tim 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father…

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!


Isa 22 the administrator of the kingdom is called father, so the same for Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

 

[Thekjv]

Matt 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Call no man father?
Matt 23: 8
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Matt 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

In the old days Rabbi and Father were used in Catholic Churches and Jewish Synagogues.
Under the old law/ old covenant.
As one can see in Matt Jesus stated preaching the New Covenant.
Imo Matt 23 1-7 Jesus speaking to a large group which most likely included some called Rabbi and Father.
Jesus was saying to the group now with the NC you only have one Rabbi/Master (Jesus) V-8
And one Father (God the Father) V-9.
Jesus was not speaking about a biological son/daughter calling his/her dad father. This Rabbi and Father meant stop calling them in church. imo

 

[Hopeful 2]

ECF?
Should we listen to the early church fathers?
Call no man father?

Fundamentalists say no!
Catholics say yes!

Don't you have that backwards ?
Fundamentalists say..."Yes we should listen to the apostles of Jesus Christ".
Catholics make their people call men of the earth their "father".

What does Jesus and scripture say?

Matt 16:17-19
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 18:17-18
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 28:19-20
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Acts 8:31 the eunuch had scripture, God sent An apostle to teach him.

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission!

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; see Isa 22:21-22
(Keys) Matt 26:17-19

 

[donadams]

Matt 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Call no man father?
Matt 23: 8
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Matt 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

In the old days Rabbi and Father were used in Catholic Churches and Jewish Synagogues.
Under the old law/ old covenant.
As one can see in Matt Jesus stated preaching the New Covenant.
Imo Matt 23 1-7 Jesus speaking to a large group which most likely included some called Rabbi and Father.
Jesus was saying to the group now with the NC you only have one Rabbi/Master (Jesus) V-8
And one Father (God the Father) V-9.
Jesus was not speaking about a biological son/daughter calling his/her dad father. This Rabbi and Father meant stop calling them in church. imo

So we don’t have spiritual fathers?

 

[donadams]

Don't you have that backwards ?
Fundamentalists say..."Yes we should listen to the apostles of Jesus Christ".
Catholics make their people call men of the earth their "father".

Please explain Jn 4:20

 

[Thekjv]

So we don’t have spiritual fathers?

So we don’t have spiritual fathers?

Before the New Covenant Men (Elders) were called Rabbi and also Father. Jesus is saying do not call these men father and do not call these men Rabbi. Christ is your Rabbi and God the Father of Jesus is our Father.

 

[donadams]

Before the New Covenant Men (Elders) were called Rabbi and also Father. Jesus is saying do not call these men father and do not call these men Rabbi. Christ is your Rabbi and God the Father of Jesus is our Father.

Here’s the whole story, hope it helps

Matt 23:9
Call no man father? Jesus is condemning pride and spiritual pride of the Pharisees?

Or is this absolute?

God calls men father!

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jesus calls men father!

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Mary calls men father!

Lk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Peter calls men father!

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

Acts 3:22 Moses said unto the fathers…

The stephen calls men father!

Acts 7 Stephen quotes the fathers over and over!

The Bible calls men father!

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.


Jn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

Jesus does not rebuke her for calling men father!


Then there is spiritual fathers!

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. (If your saved why would they be able to care for your soul?)

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 Tim 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father…

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!


Isa 22 the administrator of the kingdom is called father, so the same for Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

Thanks

 

[Thekjv]

Ones biological father has nothing to do with my post. One can call their biological dad their father and one can call their step dad father. In my post Jesus was NOT talking about biological fathers but SPIRITUAL Fathers. When Jesus spoke to the group those people were calling wise men of the church Rabbi and Father. Jesus teaching the New Covenant at the time of the meeting was speaking of He (Jesus ) is the only one to be called Rabbi (master) and Jesus's Father (God) is the only spiritual Father to be called Father.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Please explain Jn 4:20

Not much to explain.
If you are alluding to the use of the word "father", it is used in a familiar-relative sense.
Not in the way Jesus forbade.
Not in the way the catholics use it for those leading their assemblies.

 

[donadams]

Ones biological father has nothing to do with my post. One can call their biological dad their father and one can call their step dad father. In my post Jesus was NOT talking about biological fathers but SPIRITUAL Fathers. When Jesus spoke to the group those people were calling wise men of the church Rabbi and Father. Jesus teaching the New Covenant at the time of the meeting was speaking of He (Jesus ) is the only one to be called Rabbi (master) and Jesus's Father (God) is the only spiritual Father to be called Father.

Maybe Ge was rebuking the spiritual pride of the Pharisees?

 

[donadams]

Not much to explain.
If you are alluding to the use of the word "father", it is used in a familiar-relative sense.
Not in the way Jesus forbade.
Not in the way the catholics use it for those leading their assemblies.

It’s ok to refer to them as early church fathers just not in person?

 

[Thekjv]

Maybe Ge was rebuking the spiritual pride of the Pharisees?

I never heard or read of Ge

 

[Hopeful 2]

It’s ok to refer to them as early church fathers just not in person?

When you get right down to it, one must realize that only God is the Father of the church,
There are no other "church fathers".

 

[gordon777]

Important answers for you guys here.


The first two observations are that Jesus tells this to all, the multitude AND TO HIS DISCIPLES.

The next is that Jesus is highlighting the purpose of this teaching, it is that the rulers of the people, speak, but do not do as they speak.



Matthew 23:1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.




Remembering that this is to the disciples, they are taught for everyone afterwards who would hear from these same disciples, ( Apostles of Christ.) how the ones who do not do as they speak, do this because they love the highest rooms, chief seats, and being called of men rabbi/master.

Jesus tells how this should not be with the Apostles, because one is their Master, and all of them are brothers.

No man can be called father, because the Father is one, who is in heaven. ( not on earth.)

Jesus tells the Apostles the way that is now revealed, for anyone who thinks they should be the greatest, ( sit in the chief seat and be called master, rabbi, father.) they are the servant, because who exalts themselves is abased, it is the humble who shall be exalted.

The Apostles needed his taught to them, as they are examples of not understanding the difference between the way of the rabbis, and the way of Christ from heaven.

Jesus teaches them how those who are the rulers of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, exercising authority upon them. Jesus tells the Apostles, this is not the way among them, the great one is the minister, the chief is the servant of all. ( not so they are called right reverend/father anyway) but so you know the ones who still assume to hold authority over anyone else, and use a name above another, is not dong as Jesus showed. ( all are brothers, one is the teacher/Master.)

Jesus ends telling us all, how He shows who He is uniquely, by giving HIs life a ransom for any. ( which nobody else did, or could do.)



Matthew 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

 

[gordon777]

Rabbi ( master) is a teacher.

Jesus was asked good master, or good rabbi, good teacher, what to do to inherit eternal life.

The first thing Jesus has to set right, is the wording that man had made. Jesus has to try to teach the man that only God in heaven is good. ( the man assumed that a teacher was good.)



John 1:38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.



This is the importance now of how to know no one is good but one and that is God.

Christ died for the ungodly, God revealed His love towards us all, ( above the rabbis, above the pastors, above the reverends, above the priests)that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ( how one is good and that is God.)

Apostle Paul taught by Jesus Christ, reveals the same way as we saw Jesus taught the disciples, that Paul was not crucified for us. ( Christ is the one who died for us, no other did, no other is good but one.)




Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

 

[gordon777]

Jesus Christ is the good Shepherd, who gives HIs life for the sheep.

The new covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ is not so there are hundreds of thousands of pastors, reverends, priests and rabbis, it is so they no longer teach every man his brother, ( as we are all brothers and one is our Master/Father.) for all know the Lord, from the least to the greatest.




John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

 

[donadams]

I never heard or read of Ge

Sorry He “Jesus “

When you get right down to it, one must realize that only God is the Father of the church,
There are no other "church fathers".

peter is the head of the church on earth with the keys of the kingdom and is called father Isa 22:21-22 Matt 16:18-19
Thanks

 

[Thekjv]

Important answers for you guys here.


The first two observations are that Jesus tells this to all, the multitude AND TO HIS DISCIPLES.

The next is that Jesus is highlighting the purpose of this teaching, it is that the rulers of the people, speak, but do not do as they speak.



Matthew 23:1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.




Remembering that this is to the disciples, they are taught for everyone afterwards who would hear from these same disciples, ( Apostles of Christ.) how the ones who do not do as they speak, do this because they love the highest rooms, chief seats, and being called of men rabbi/master.

Jesus tells how this should not be with the Apostles, because one is their Master, and all of them are brothers.

No man can be called father, because the Father is one, who is in heaven. ( not on earth.)

Jesus tells the Apostles the way that is now revealed, for anyone who thinks they should be the greatest, ( sit in the chief seat and be called master, rabbi, father.) they are the servant, because who exalts themselves is abased, it is the humble who shall be exalted.

The Apostles needed his taught to them, as they are examples of not understanding the difference between the way of the rabbis, and the way of Christ from heaven.

Jesus teaches them how those who are the rulers of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, exercising authority upon them. Jesus tells the Apostles, this is not the way among them, the great one is the minister, the chief is the servant of all. ( not so they are called right reverend/father anyway) but so you know the ones who still assume to hold authority over anyone else, and use a name above another, is not dong as Jesus showed. ( all are brothers, one is the teacher/Master.)

Jesus ends telling us all, how He shows who He is uniquely, by giving HIs life a ransom for any. ( which nobody else did, or could do.)



Matthew 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

Jesus tells how this should not be with the Apostles, because one is their Master, and all of them are brothers.

Not sure which bible version you use buy the Kjv says this
v 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
So Jesus is saying he is the master and Rabbi no other. remember this under the New Covenant teaching. not old law.

 

[Thekjv]

Sorry He “Jesus “

peter is the head of the church on earth with the keys of the kingdom and is called father Isa 22:21-22 Matt 16:18-19
Thanks

that is under the old law which was done away with and why in Matt 23 Jesus made it clear to stop the practice of calling church leaders Father or Rabbi. The vail was broken the old is gone away.