End of the Church Age? From corporate to individualism

[Vic C.]

Some of us are concerned about the growing number of people believing the "Church Age" has ended. This is a teaching that is spearheaded by Harold Camping and his Family Radio ministry. I’m sure there are many others, but he seems to be the most prominent here in the US with his TV and radio ministries.

We have info and links concerning this teaching that I'd like to share. Many of us personally believe this is a false teaching that only leads to further division within God's ekklesia. I do believe we are seeing a falling away from not only sound doctrine, but doctrine rooted in the private interpretations of these so-called "called out ones".

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Some will say that passage refers to the RCC (1). Some will say this refers to the RCC and “her daughtersâ€Â(2), the denominations formed during and after the Reformation, Some will say this is in reference to apostate Judaism (3) and some will insist this refers to today’s various churches (4). #s 2 and 4 are somewhat related, though #2 is held mostly by a specific denomination. This thread is not about them. This thread is about those who believe the church age is over and that God is no longer using the “church†is a means of salvation.

Personally, I lean toward #3. So, is the church age really over? Doesn’t the Bible teach it isn’t over until Jesus returns? The Bible says:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

2 Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I believe the Church age isn’t over until Jesus returns and gathers us to Him. There is no doubt that apostasy has crept into the church. It was creeping into the church in Paul’s time. But there are saved individuals both in and out of corporate churches. To deny that is to deny the sovereignty of God Himself, declaring He can or will not save anyone still belonging to any one congregation. This idea that the church age is over takes a whole Body and separates it's parts. In other words, it leads to individualism with individualistic Biblical interpretations that dismantles many Biblical doctrines which have been carried on from the EFCs and held by both Orthodox and Reformed believers.

Now, I'm only talking about the essentials of Faith. It appears these new private interpretations discard many of the essentials and insist beliefs nonessential to the Faith, beliefs that may no longer apply to Christianity beyond the Apostolic age, become the new essentials.

All believers, whether in or out of any organized church, are of One Body.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Cor 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

For we are free in Christ to follow Him and worship the Lord and to uphold the very essentials of the Christian Faith.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

To claim He is calling people out of the churches doesn’t do much but further splinter the Body. Dismembering the Body can only diminish their presence in society. Despite the growing apostasy, there are sound churches that are still carrying out the Great Commission. There IS strength in numbers.

God has been and continues to call people out of the world, not out of the "church".

Below are some links I have found that address this serious issue of proclaiming the church is over.

http://roadwelltraveled.wordpress.com/2 ... hurch-age/
(above is a thread containing both sides of the issue. There is a member there, Bekah, that despite her being RC, puts up a solid argument, pro-church age.)

http://www.christiancourier.com/article ... the-church
(this link also directly addresses Camping's teaching on this subject. The writer ends it this way:

"Sadder still is the sobering fact that many folks have not needed a “Pied Piper,†parading under the banner of a “prophet,†to lead them away from the church. They have become perfectly adept themselves at an exodus from fellowship with God. And it is a horrific trek into eternity".)

http://www.equip.org/articles/the-end-o ... -and-after
(brief article and PDF)

http://www.biblemaster.com/qanda/displa ... Position=1

I have more, but I will end on this one for now:

http://daniellehanley.xanga.com/4499611 ... hurch-age/

All opinions are welcome, but please refrain from pontificating. It will not be tolerated.

 

[handy]

I think you've brought up an incredibly important topic here Vic. There seems to be today an essential need for Christians to be able to discern true fellowship from apostasy, but yet to keep in mind the necessity for us to continue to come together in unity as the Body of Christ. There is a need to come out of apostasy, but not to become a lone gunman so to speak, but to seek out true fellowship and unity in Christ. Camping is capitalizing (literaly) out of this need today by developing a cult following in which, not surprisingly, he is the 'only one' who knows the truth and therefore we must all follow him.

As apostasy rises, it is a fairly normal reaction to believe that we must come out of it, but not at the expense of the so-called "Church age". The church is the Body of Christ, His Bride, how can it be that she will diminish? If we are called out of any apostasy, then we are still called to be unified in Christ and to continue to prevail against the gates of hell.

As far as Harold Camping is concerned, he is clearly a false prophet as he predicted in 1988 that the end of the world would take place in September of 1994. Since the world obviously didn't end in September of '94, I think Camping is now back-pedaling to find a way to fit the non-ending into his nonsense and the way he is doing so is by stating now it was the church that ended.

 

[Vic C.]

As far as Harold Camping is concerned, he is clearly a false prophet as he predicted in 1988 that the end of the world would take place in September of 1994. Since the world obviously didn't end in September of '94, I think Camping is now back-pedaling to find a way to fit the non-ending into his nonsense and the way he is doing so is by stating now it was the church that ended.

Thanks for responding, Dora.

He has set a new date for his rapture; May 21st. and October 20, 2011 as the day of Jesus' return, the annihilation of unbelievers and the end of the world. He is staking his entire ministry on these dates. He even discourages small groups and fellowships, saying they are not Biblical, which even some of our non churched members here would probably disagree.

 

[whirlwind]

As far as Harold Camping is concerned, he is clearly a false prophet as he predicted in 1988 that the end of the world would take place in September of 1994. Since the world obviously didn't end in September of '94, I think Camping is now back-pedaling to find a way to fit the non-ending into his nonsense and the way he is doing so is by stating now it was the church that ended.

Thanks for responding, Dora.

He has set a new date for his rapture; May 21st. and October 20, 2011 as the day of Jesus' return, the annihilation of unbelievers and the end of the world. He is staking his entire ministry on these dates. He even discourages small groups and fellowships, saying they are not Biblical, which even some of our non churched members here would probably disagree.

A friend from another forum is a listener of Camping's. At her suggestion, I read a page of his work on which two or three of his claims are, I believe, unbiblical. There is no one man that is correct on all their teachings so a little leeway can be given...we are all human and a great deal can be learned from a variety of people, denominations, etc., but I will say, these were not small doctrinal errors. However...as I only read one page that is hardly a fair assessment. I know I have no desire to listen or read anything of his but why would anyone when all of us have the greatest of teachers at our fingertips....The Holy Spirit.

Everything from everyone must be tested against His Word. There are new things to learn each day so we would be wrong to close our eyes and ears because it is something we weren't familar with for He can and does teach us through others we come in contact with. But, that being said....we should always test what we hear and see. Be ready to learn and ready to discern.

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah here:

Eph. 4:5 Still finds this ONE FOLD up until Christ returns. (verse 13 is high/lighted)
I see the problem with the Matt. 10:5-6 command of Christ, for what was & is to come around first! Wake up the lost ALL SLEEPING sheep! (Matt. 25's Midnight Cry) And what was left were the ones of Matt. 10:15! (see Eph. 4:5-16 below in part)

The Acts REMNANT from old Israel. 'GO YE OUT TO MEET HIM.' & the Matt. 25:10 'SHUT DOOR'. (or) Matt. 23:38's DESOLATE HOUSE of Christ! And the Remnant were the extended of Israel.

[5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, (still NO doctrinal change except for the laws of Moses pen finished)

[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
[7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
...

[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

(But we can be sure that not all are called, nor are ALL WHO WERE, ARE FORCED TO ANSWER GODS CALL, huh?)

[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

[15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

[16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

And Rev. 3:7-17 finds the same history repeated. (Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15) Just three Folds on the scene at the same time/period of the Virgin Doctrine ones. Phil. who are kept, ibid. 10. Laodicea who are Spewed Out. (like old Israel) And it is not hard to locate Laodicea in ibid. 9.

If one needs further proof? See Rev. 12:17. (and no, this has nothing to do with the false ones of Rev. 17:5)

But for the subject title? NO, 'i' believe that all such ones that can not Unite are truely LOOSE CANNON'S so to speak. (like Lucifer was in heaven) And as one mentioned about the prophesied shaking or falling away.. (2 Thess. 2:1-3) That was what Matt. 10:5-6 on was ALL ABOUT, was it not?? And who wants to get involved in that COMMANDMENT??? I mean, we love Christ to much for that it seems? Matt. 10:23-27.

 

[MMarc]

I believe the church age is over, apostasy has never been higher than now.

50 years ago the UK and Canada were 70% believers now it's at about 30 % for each nation.
I'm sure the in the rest of the world it is similar.

I think the kingdom of God is at hand, and that Jesus already walks the earth, He returns like a thief in the night to be revealed later on to ''all eyes.'' And even then if all eyes do see Jesus not all will recognize Jesus.

Just like the first time He came. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy...

 

[Vic C.]

I believe the church age is over, apostasy has never been higher than now.

Hey, thanks for responding. You too N.B. ;)

I agree that apostasy is very high now. But the Bible teaches when He comes, He doesn't come and hide among us. I believe that is spiritualizing the scripture. He comes like this:

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He left visible and He will return visible, as the verse says. The first thing He does is wake up the dead in Him. The second thing He does is gather those believers who are alive. The thief in the night is for those not prepared and waiting for His return. I believe all the verses and passages pertaining to His return also point to the end of the 'church' age. Depending on your millennial view (pre, post amil, etc.) what would follow the end of this age?

I'd like to see verses clearly stating this age of the ekklesia is over and that the next age is upon us.

 

[mutzrein]

I left an organised 'church' because of the apostacy within it. The tares were choking the wheat. Now, some would say that I am the apostate simply because my relationship with the Lord is based on faith in Christ rather than their doctrines.

To me, the church is not any specific group, denomination or whatever. It is those who are the wheat. Now while I recognise the chalf, I would much rather grow with other wheat around me.

 

[Elijah674]

I believe the church age is over, apostasy has never been higher than now.

50 years ago the UK and Canada were 70% believers now it's at about 30 % for each nation.
I'm sure the in the rest of the world it is similar.

I think the kingdom of God is at hand, and that Jesus already walks the earth, He returns like a thief in the night to be revealed later on to ''all eyes.'' And even then if all eyes do see Jesus not all will recognize Jesus.

Just like the first time He came. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy...

Hi Elijah here: You can hold to your preterist view with this remark from me. ;) I see the Word of God telling us that there is NO NEW THING UNDER THE SUN! Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15 and God TWICE DOCUMENTS the thing for Truth! Gen. 41:32 You know, God does not change & DOUBLED THE VISION TWICE! Sure, there were & are a 'few' times that God tel's us that it will not be so. Such as the world flood & sin arising a 'second' time Nahum 1:9. He does this for our benifit because the occasions are so few!
Anyhow, this is how I believe it...
Gen. 1 starts out as such with the earth Void, heaven/less, with NO MAN. Yet satan & his evil angels were here.

Jer. 4:23
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.[24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

[25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

[26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, (SECOND COMMING TIME/FRAME!) and by his fierce anger.

[27] For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without
form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
(again, as it was in the exact first history, from creation to the END of the 6000 year period! The 1000 years are to follow with Earth EMPTY except for the circumstantial 'Binding' of satan & his angel followers! Rev. 20:1-3 satan is in Earths 'bottomless pit' once again, just like before the Godhead created it! Then he was immediately seen in the Garden of Eden at the forbidden tree! Does one Understand & Believe the Word of Christ in Ecc. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 & Gen. 41:22??? And what man could live with these conditions.. NONE!)

[24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

[25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

[26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the **Presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

(AGAIN, the TIME/FRAME is the Second Coming of the Master)

[27] For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

(Read on, but remember that there were no heavens, light, or man)

The Second coming of Christ finds 1000 years with the Earth having her 7th 1000 year Sabbath. All are DEAD who are wicked & pre/judged such. When Christ comes again, He Brings His REWARD WITH HIM. Rev. 22:12 (Saved, or Lost) And what does one read about satan being bound?? By these literal set of circumstances? Rev. 20:1-3.

There is a period of Judgement for the wicked during the 1000 years to determine by the Record Books their individual time of punishment. Luke 12:47-48. (compare 1 Cor. 6:2-3) This will be done by RECORD BOOKS alone. Eccl. 12:13-14, Rev. 20:12-14. (Notice: These are D-E-A-D, and this is as quoted in the only way that the dead can stand)

And verse 27 of Jer. 4?? For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. These ones are the Righteous who come forth in the FIRST RESURRECTION. Rev. 20:6 Compare 1 Thess. 4:13-16 FIRST RISEING, & the outcome of the rest of the wicked at this same time/frame .. 2 Thess. 2:7-12.

Notice Christ Words of John 5:28-29.. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

[29] And shall come forth; (NO. ONE or FIRST!) they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. NO. 2 or Second!

Read it slowly & with the previous verses in mind. Both the wicked & the Rightous are promised a Resurection, yet it is not at the same time period! Notice again when the wicked were to come forth.. Rev. 20:4-7! (to die the second death according to the Heavenly Record Books during this 1000 year time of their 'sentencing of punishment' individual judgement)

---Elijah

 

[Bick]

Hi Vic. I agree, the church 'age' has not ended. I understand this time is God's 'administration of Grace', within this present evil age (Gal. 1:4); and this age continues on until the tribulation and the coming again of Christ to the earth to establish His Messianic Kingdom, which is the age to come:

Luke 18:30 "...will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."

As for those 'departing from the faith", Paul wrote to Timothy:

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.." 1 Tim. 4:1, NIV.

Perhaps the "latter times" started in Timothy's life time...we really don't know. But we do know we can see it is happening today.

My understanding is the Church/body of Christ will be caught away at the "rapture" to meet the Lord secretly in the air, and then be taken to the heavenlies. All this before the "man of sin" is revealed (Ref: 2 Thes. 2:1-3).

 

[handy]

Vic, I've been catching up with Camping's heresies. Wow. Since my mom and dad were of the Reformed Faith, I remember listening to his radio shows when I was growing up. We began to take issue with his preaching and parted ways before '88, but I do know what a stir it caused when he announced a specific date for the end of the world. I naively thought that once September of '94 came and went he would quietly fall by the wayside but apparently not.

I'm astounded at the similarities between his heresies and the Jehovah's Witnesses. It's really amazing how far this once powerful proclaimer of the Word has fallen.

As for the specific heresy that the church age is now "over" and that all true Christians should come out of the churches, oh how convenient a lie of Satan's that one is. Let see, during the end times, when we will need to stand firm together as never before, let's lie to the church and say, "get away" "go on your own" "don't listen to any one but me".

Naturally, its the foundation of any cult to convince people that everyone is lying to them but the "one true prophet". Satan needs to cut people out from the unified Body of Christ, depriving them of their family and most importantly of their Head, Jesus Christ. It's similar to how a wolf will cut the weak and young away from a herd in order to kill and devour.

The answer is for Christians to all the more stand strong and unified against the wiles of Satan and to diligently study the Word, not just on one's own, but in a way that we might, as iron sharpening iron, sharpen one anothers understanding.

 

[sheshisown]

Hello Vic~

I have never heard of Camping prior to this so I guess I am out of the little loop of awareness around him. I say little because he does not come across as much of anything in California, nor does he seem to have a mega following like the "new gospel teaching" churches do. Each of these BIG MOVEMENTS started with what you listed; a falling away from not only sound doctrine, but doctrine rooted in the private interpretations <<<of course that is my opinion not doctrine... Where does he minister from? Out of what state?

What kind of a following can this preacher have who teaches that;

In an interview with the Associated Press regarding his new book, he announced, “The Bible says God is not saving people any longer in the churches, they’re being saved outside the churches.â€Â

If this is true, then how could he also teach that small group studies are in error? Exactly where are people being saved if not at LEAST in these two places? It ought to be very obvious to any believer that he is OUT THERE in his doctrine. I really cannot SEE why his doctrine would be any more of a division maker than other erronous doctrines that have drawn HUGE MASSES into their folds.

What to do? I think whirlwind phrased it well...

Everything from everyone must be tested against His Word. There are new things to learn each day so we would be wrong to close our eyes and ears because it is something we weren't familar with for He can and does teach us through others we come in contact with. But, that being said....we should always test what we hear and see. Be ready to learn and ready to discern.

I will add... I will be praying too.

Also, on that specification of areas that we fall into... From a Dispensationist View I see that scripture from Rev. 18:4-5 as the lord calling His people out of Commercial Babylon. This kingdom has been building for a long time, whether its fruition is today or twenty years from now may not be known.
Of course when any church teaches or preaches that it knows, what even Christ does not know, the day and the hour...of his appearing. Well~ even new believers can see through that false doctrine, as long as they have been grounded in the word to begin with. :yes

Awaitng His call... bonnie :shades

 

[Vic C.]

Where does he minister from? Out of what state?

Um, California, the Oakland/Alameda area.

His views on salvation are very hyper-Calvinistic.

He's certainly not the only person teaching God is calling people out of mainstream churches. That teaching has been quite popular for a while now in many circles. :gah

 

[sheshisown]

:toofunny~

Leave it to me to be unaware of "northern" California weirdness... Sorry I pay little attention to the voices out of the frontier where the gay lifestyle runs the show for the most part. :crazy

Just to give you a hint of the problems between north and south CA... Northern CA has oodles of water (all that rain~ ya know?) BUT~ will not pump it down here where the Lord has dried up the resources. Southern CA has been borrowing more than our share of Colorado's river to meet the need... and now that source will dry up. :yes Next year we will face an unbelievable increase in water rates... some estimate 60%. :nod

But why would nothern CA voters consistantly refuse to pipe water... (through a pipeline already in existance BTW~) to southern CA... even though part of their own economy stability will suffer?

They consistantly vote against it... because of the endangered fish. :o

http://www.waterconserve.org/shared/reader/welcome.aspx?linkid=110625 I salute the fish...

The entire state is defunct of reasonable leadership. :nod Why do you think we are in the financial pickle we are in? Most of our decision makers live up thata way... Sacramento ya know. :help

I have three citrus trees and ground cover, but happily I am on a (drip irragation system). Which was invented by Israel... after they once again became a nation in 1948. :D Smart cookies

Hey~ Southern CA is filled with weirdies too... but of these I am much more aware. :shades

The Calvary Chapel churches of which I am a part, teach clearly against the false doctrine of date setting, we broadcast our messages and reach out to our communities always seeking to preach the whole word of God. line by line, precept by precept. THAT is the strongest deterent to false doctrine I believe.
:yes

You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. 2 peter 3:17-18

Thanks for quickening me to pray brother... I will pray for that ministry to fail, in Jesus name.

bonnie :shades

 

[Imagican]

I left an organised 'church' because of the apostacy within it. The tares were choking the wheat. Now, some would say that I am the apostate simply because my relationship with the Lord is based on faith in Christ rather than their doctrines.

To me, the church is not any specific group, denomination or whatever. It is those who are the wheat. Now while I recognise the chalf, I would much rather grow with other wheat around me.

Amen, my brother. And you and I do NOT have to agree completely to be able to discern that 'organizations' that teach THEIR WAY are rarely able to teach THE Way.

Vic, Handy,

A question that I have posed on NUMEROUS occasion;

Do you believe that we are required to 'gather' SIMPLY for the SAKE of 'gathering'? Is this what you get when you read that we ARE to 'gather'?

Or, should we ABSOLUTELY refuse to COMPROMISE TRUTH for the sake of 'gathering'?

I have YET to find an 'organized religion' that is NOT frought with FALSE teachings, LUKE WARM members, and vanity being the MOST shared TRAIT of EACH that I have experienced. You would probably state that I am in NO position to JUDGE such things, but I AM. I am COMMANDED NOT TO enjoin such that TALK ONE THING and LIVE another.

And I'm SURE that you can PLAINLY see that I am NOT one that 'PLAYS well with others'. But then, my purpose is NOT to PLAY. I am NOT here to PRETEND to be ANYTHING other than 'what I AM'.

So, as far as 'fathers' of such beliefs that I may well share, (I hadn't ever even HEARD that there were OTHERS like myself and will certainly check into this), but it is NOT surprising. I am SURE that I am NOBODY SPECIAL and NO 'rocket scientist', so if I can PLAINLY see the error wrought in the churches, there are BOUND to be MANY others that are able to SEE as well.

How about this: In Revelation, it speaks of the 'two prophets' that will lay in the streets for the WORLD to see. What do you suppose that the significance of THESE TWO is?

The World IS lost and it will BE to save the VERY ELECT that will bring about it's END as we know it. God is NOT going to destroy a 'world FULL of righteous people'. So, it's only a matter of TIME before the entities that we CALL churches are able to 'brainwash' the masses to the point that there are PRACTICALLY NONE LEFT that follow in truth. This is NOT something DIFFICULT to grasp. It may not be PRETTY and for that REASON many may refuse to HEED. But that it's COMING, and has been developing SINCE the DEATH of Christ is WITHOUT doubt. For we were told that MANY false prophets had ALREADY gone out from among those that followed in TRUTH at the TIME OF THE APOSTLES. Does ANYONE out there THINK that things have GOTTEN BETTER? If so, then truth is NOT something that has 'sunk in' yet.

I offer what I am ABLE to any and all that I come in contact with. Whether 'so-called' Christians or NOT. I offer witness and testimony to ANY and ALL that are willing to listen. Not PATTING myself on the back for there is LITTLE glory or even PLEASURE found in the MOST of the reactions that I receive. MOST think of me as 'a NUT', 'Jesus Freak', 'Bible Thumper', the list is varied and quite creative at times. I surely DO NOT FIT in with those of this world. MOST take OFFENSE as seen here on the forums. But I have been instructed and COMMANDED to do as I am ABLE. Anything less and I wouldn't even USE the words God or Christ.

So, fault me as you will. Label me as you will. But what I have found to be of MOST importance is TRUTH. For without it, there is NOTHING that can be followed that matters except towards DARKNESS.

MOST of the modern denominations ARE nothing but OFF-SHOOTS of the Catholic Church. Not Catholic bashing, just offering FACTS. Funny, but it's ALMOST like Ishmael and Issac. Half brothers who HATE each other but have the SAME FATHER. Yet even in their differences, what they follow is MOSTLY the SAME.

I choose to follow NO denomination for THEY are the PRODUCTS of MEN. I AM a part of THE Church and a functioning MEMBER OF THE BODY of Christ. Like it not, I do not NEED men to offer me THEIR RULES on HOW I am to be SAVED, for there is NO MAN on this planet that is ABLE to SAVE ME. And we certainly cannot BUY our way into salvation, (not with any currency of THIS PLANET.

So, there you have it. I am CERTAINLY an individualist when it comes to MY salvation. For that is the ONLY way that I WILL RECEIVE IT. But certainly willing share what I am able with ANYONE willing to accept or ask of it. My individualism does NOT separate me from my NEIGHBORS or from God or His Son.

blessings,

MEC

 

[stranger]

mutzrein wrote:

I left an organised 'church' because of the apostacy within it. The tares were choking the wheat. Now, some would say that I am the apostate simply because my relationship with the Lord is based on faith in Christ rather than their doctrines.

To me, the church is not any specific group, denomination or whatever. It is those who are the wheat. Now while I recognise the chalf, I would much rather grow with other wheat around me.

Hi mutzrein,

The wheat and the weeds may not be the most appropriate parable for the Church though it has some relevance to an assembly. The church as I see it in the NT cannot happen with one isolated member and the head (which is Christ). The body of Christ has many members just as your body has various parts that are organically dependent upon one another. What then of the individual? He/she is simply a Christian alone in the world EXCEPT when in an asembly that forms the body of Christ. This really is the GENIUS of the Church - the assembly! Have you ever arrived at an assembly and discovered that you are early (and not a single person has arrived yet)? How strange that feels until the brothers and sisters in Christ start arriving or assembling together.

While many claim to be part of the Church - an yet separated from the Chruch - that claim is challenged by the simple question:

If you are part of the Church were are the other members or body parts of Christ ?

The invisible Church is already in glory - so claiming to be a member of that does not solve the problem of the missing body of Christ upon the earth.

blessings

 

[Imagican]

stranger,

The Body IS SPIRIT. The flesh has NO PART IN IT.

While you may well have been influenced to BELIEVE that The Church is something OTHER THAN SPIRIT, that is all that it IS, belief.

For truth dictates that the ONLY members OF The Church are ABLE to BE members IN SPIRIT.

In this respect, there are members of The Body ALL OVER THE PLANET. And those MEMBERS of members of the BODY whether they ever MEET in the flesh or NOT. They are PARST of the SAME SPIRIT.

What YOU have done is allow 'man-made' ''churches'' convince you that THEY are the BODY. while there may well be MEMBERS of The Body, there is NO MAN MADE INSTITUTION ON THIS PLANET that IS The Body.

But believe as you will. That is up to YOU to come to your OWN conclusions. But The Spirit speaks EXPRESSEDLY in respect TO ITSELF and It's MEMBERS and is NOT contained within ANY 'man-made' structure governed by ordinances OF THE FLESH.

When Christ DIED, God LEFT 'the house'. No LONGER did He dwell within a 'temple' made by the hands of MEN but in the HEARTS of those that LOVE and follow HIs commandments. And THAT Body IS made up of MANY PARTS. Each with it's OWN purpose. The eyes to SEE, the hands to WORK, the ears to HEAR, etc............

And I can attest to this: if you LET THEM, the churches WILL attempt to convince you that THEY are The Body. In MOST cases, this couldn't be FURTHER from the TRUTH.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Rick W]

I've heard of this general claim of overall apostasy before, that organized churches today are all corrupt and that it's no good to be a part of any of them.

Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism had the same ideas. That all were corrupt. He pondered Methodist, Presbyterian and Baptist. During his turmoil of which to join he had a visitation from two personages, The Father and Jesus Christ.

Scans from the Mormon book: The Peril of Great Price
(Mormon scripture)

The first three links are the scans (pages) describing Joseph's dilemma.


http://users.zoominternet.net/~bloveds/AllCorrupt1.jpg
http://users.zoominternet.net/~bloveds/AllCorrupt2.jpg
http://users.zoominternet.net/~bloveds/AllCorrupt3.jpg

This is the answer he received:

 

[stovebolts]

The Body IS SPIRIT. The flesh has NO PART IN IT.

Care to explain that?... Would you agree that the spirit moves through the flesh?

While your explaining that, I'd be interested in how you define the flesh.

Lastly, are you opposed to Christians gathering at a central place of worship, such as a church building or the like (such as a forum) to congregate, fellowship and praise our Lord and Savior as united brothers and sisters in Christ?

Thanks for your time in answering these simple questions. It will help me to understand your position clearer. :nod

 

[radorth]

It is true some gather out of mere habit. It is also true that one may have to seek God more on his or her own, depending on what sort of churches are nearby. "Forsake not the assembing of yourselves together," does not mean go to any church just to be going, or because you ike the pastor.

What I think is missing from the discussion is how hungry we might be for true fellowship, for a church life even close to what Paul described, for unity of purpose, for the gifts from above to minister to others. How long has it been since rivers of living water flowed in your church? When was the last love feast where the love of God was tangible. How many times have you been told in a sermon "do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," but you cannot stop? Is it just you, or is the preaching useless, as Paul said?

Unless the church is what God truly meant it to be, this discussion doesn't mean much. If church in your town was run by the Spirit, you would happily be there 3 times a week, and your cranky neigbor would want to be there with you. A rare happening it is, but it has happened and it will happen again for those who thirst for and pray for it.