End of the Church Age? From corporate to individualism

[radorth]

I've heard of this general claim of overall apostasy before, that organized churches today are all corrupt and that it's no good to be a part of any of them.

Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism had the same ideas. That all were corrupt. He pondered Methodist, Presbyterian and Baptist. During his turmoil of which to join he had a visitation from two personages, The Father and Jesus Christ.

Scans from the Mormon book: The Peril of Great Price
(Mormon scripture)

Fox, Seymour, Wesley and Nee (to name a few) had the same dilemma Rick. You seem to be making the case that the Mormons got it right because Joseph Smith alone resolved the dilemma. God did mightier things through others, men married to one woman, men who did not reject blacks, men who led enormous moves of God, and recovered the gifts enjoyed by the early Christians, including miracles, without claiming to have found some mysterious golden plates. The Mormons can hardly claim to have recovered the true Gospel while lacking the experience of the early Christians, openly violating such scripture as the "husband of one wife" injunction. Such contradictions make Smith look like he's just inventing his own Gospel.

 

[Vic C.]

Such contradictions make Smith look like he's just inventing his own Gospel.

That was precisely the point of Rick's post. :o

 

[mutzrein]

mutzrein wrote:

I left an organised 'church' because of the apostacy within it. The tares were choking the wheat. Now, some would say that I am the apostate simply because my relationship with the Lord is based on faith in Christ rather than their doctrines.

To me, the church is not any specific group, denomination or whatever. It is those who are the wheat. Now while I recognise the chalf, I would much rather grow with other wheat around me.

Hi mutzrein,

The wheat and the weeds may not be the most appropriate parable for the Church though it has some relevance to an assembly. The church as I see it in the NT cannot happen with one isolated member and the head (which is Christ). The body of Christ has many members just as your body has various parts that are organically dependent upon one another. What then of the individual? He/she is simply a Christian alone in the world EXCEPT when in an asembly that forms the body of Christ. This really is the GENIUS of the Church - the assembly! Have you ever arrived at an assembly and discovered that you are early (and not a single person has arrived yet)? How strange that feels until the brothers and sisters in Christ start arriving or assembling together.

While many claim to be part of the Church - an yet separated from the Chruch - that claim is challenged by the simple question:

If you are part of the Church were are the other members or body parts of Christ ?

The invisible Church is already in glory - so claiming to be a member of that does not solve the problem of the missing body of Christ upon the earth.

blessings

Thankyou stranger. Where are the other members of the body of Christ? They are everywhere I go. Some in this 'church'. Some in that. Some outside of the 'church' - meeting in homes and public places. I have not removed myself from other members of the body for I long to have fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ where-ever they are.

 

[handy]

It is true some gather out of mere habit. It is also true that one may have to seek God more on his or her own, depending on what sort of churches are nearby. "Forsake not the assembing of yourselves together," does not mean go to any church just to be going, or because you ike the pastor.

What I think is missing from the discussion is how hungry we might be for true fellowship, for a church life even close to what Paul described, for unity of purpose, for the gifts from above to minister to others. How long has it been since rivers of living water flowed in your church? When was the last love feast where the love of God was tangible. How many times have you been told in a sermon "do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," but you cannot stop? Is it just you, or is the preaching useless, as Paul said?

Unless the church is what God truly meant it to be, this discussion doesn't mean much. If church in your town was run by the Spirit, you would happily be there 3 times a week, and your cranky neigbor would want to be there with you. A rare happening it is, but it has happened and it will happen again for those who thirst for and pray for it.

You bring up some very valid points. As one who lives in an area where there aren't any good Spirit-filled churches, I can agree that it's depressing, even counter-productive to "go to any church just to be going".

But, I think Vic's original post wasn't about the difficulty that some find in seeking out true Christian fellowship, but the heresy that is being taught by Camping and others, just as it was taught by Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, and to a certain extent the Seventh Day Adventists, specifically among the Branch Davidian sect. Camping is not the only one who is pushing this heresy. There is a guy by the name of Darwin Fish (really that is his name) who also pushes the idea that the only one teaching the truth of god (his truth, his god) is him. This heresy that one must cut off all contact from local organized churches, is a very effective lie of Satan's that helps promote cults. As one who was caught up in a cult, I can tell you that the purpose of this is to cut someone from the Vine by convincing one that there is something wrong with the branches.

The main reason why I struggle with finding a good local church is due mainly to geography. When I lived in a more populated area, I didn't have trouble finding local churches where God was preached, taught and worshiped. Even where I live, the local church I do go to, with all it's troubles denomination wise, still worships God and proclaims the gospel.

However, according to Camping, Fish and those of that ilk, the so-called "church age" is dead and one must, must, leave the local church and strike out on one's own, and listen only to their teaching. That is cultism.

 

[Rick W]

Such contradictions make Smith look like he's just inventing his own Gospel.

That was precisely the point of Rick's post. :o

Yes, 180 years ago Smith came up with his own "correct" interpretation of Christian scripture adding the "Book of Mormon", "Doctrine and Covenants" and "The pearl of Great Price" based on a belief all churches were wrong and corrupt. Once he made his point it wasn't all that difficult to sell his own version to others. Many cults make the same claim to further their belief/interpretations of what is right or wrong.
What's being said is "All churches are wrong therefore heed my words to the true path of spiritual purity."

 

[Imagican]

The Body IS SPIRIT. The flesh has NO PART IN IT.

Care to explain that?... Would you agree that the spirit moves through the flesh?

While your explaining that, I'd be interested in how you define the flesh.

Lastly, are you opposed to Christians gathering at a central place of worship, such as a church building or the like (such as a forum) to congregate, fellowship and praise our Lord and Savior as united brothers and sisters in Christ?

Thanks for your time in answering these simple questions. It will help me to understand your position clearer. :nod

Stove,

When Christ lives within the heart of those that love and follow His commandments, is it His PHYSICAL BODY that lives within them?

Is the Kingdom of God PHYSICAL?

When we are 'in The Spirit', is it our fleshly BODIES that are conformed, or OUR Spirit?

I am NOT opposed to 'gathering' AT ALL. I am opposed to organizations that 'pretend' to offer something that they can NEVER deliver. Pretending that they HAVE what YOU NEED but NEVER able to actually GIVE IT TO YOU. Enticing you to RETURN over and over in the HOPES that one day YOU TOO can receive what they ACT like they have to give.

In Revelation, when Christ addresses the members of The Church in different locations, HOW IS IT that He finds FAULT among them? Where did this FAULT come from? And EACH time He TELLS them what they MUST DO in order to be 'brought BACK' into alignment with TRUTH. But ULTIMATELY, where does the FAULT LIE?

When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about their faults, we can SEE that His answer is HIS RETURN. That IF he were ABLE to return, he would be ABLE to set things RIGHT again. For men had 'steped in' AFTER he had left and ALTERED the teachings of The Spirit into that of their OWN designs.

The Spirit has been diminished in the churches to the point NOW one would NEED to ask me the question that has been posed. The churches SPEAK of Spirit but TEACH 'flesh'. Ordinances of their OWN making and expecting them to be of more consequence than those that were HUNG on the CROSS.

Stove, there are TWO 'sorts' of Bodies, there is ONE that IS Spiritual. That IS The Body of Christ. And then there IS the FLESH. The flesh is GREEDY, and SELF SERVING. The Spirit is Charity and OFFERING of self for the sake of OTHERS. One CANNOT live FOR the Flesh and BE IN SPIRIT.

I know, my words are HARD to bear. AS they SHOULD be.

And guys, do you remember the words of Christ concerning PEACE? He PLAINLY stated that He did NOT come to offer PEACE to the FLESH. For it WILL war against SPIRIT. If able, it would DESTROY Spirit and that is EXACTLY what is HAPPENING. But BEFORE ALL Spirit is ABLE to be destroyed, this world will END as we KNOW it.

And WHAT 'exactly' do YOU believe is DESTROYING The Spirit? The ONLY THING that is ABLE. The Flesh.

Stove, the ONLY WAY that ANY are united in Christ is IF they LOVE and follow HIS commandments. And that's assuming they are introduced to the TRUE Christ to BEGIN with. For 'straight is the gate and narrow the way that leadeth unto LIFE and FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT. And this is NOT offering; ALL that FIND it will FOLLOW IT. So reduce the numbers offered in the FIRST statement and you find that what it is really offering is VERY VERY few will actually find and FOLLOW.

I would imagine that JUST about EVERYONE that I communicate with on this forum would have been considered RICH by the standards that existed at the time that Christ existed. And Christ offered that it was NOT THESE that He came to 'save' but those that NEEDED Him. For one does NOT visit a doctor UNLESS they NEED TO. Yet few have such NEEDS now. Lip service is EASY. But following in TRUTH is a completely DIFFERENT matter.

And I am NOT here to offer DISCOURAGEMENT in Christ, just the MEANS by which most have been duped into a 'false sense of security' as to WHAT we are to follow. Our LOYALTY should lie in Christ WHOLEHEARTEDLY. Yet the defense that so many offer for THEIR church shows that this is NOT SO. For Christ IS The Church. And those that are a PART of Christ ARE The Body. Whether they are ABLE to gather or not in THE FLESH, they are certainly able to 'gather in Spirit'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[handy]

In Revelation, when Christ addresses the members of The Church in different locations, HOW IS IT that He finds FAULT among them? Where did this FAULT come from? And EACH time He TELLS them what they MUST DO in order to be 'brought BACK' into alignment with TRUTH. But ULTIMATELY, where does the FAULT LIE?

Keep in mind, however that although Christ found fault with 5 of the 7, He didn't find fault with two of them, the congregations of Smyrna and Philadelphia. And, to the others, yes, He did rebuke each for their faults and exhort them to return, but He did not tell them to disband. As a matter of fact, a common theme of His exhortations was to hold fast, to keep what they had been given and to persevere as a body of believers.

 

[Rick W]

I attended Calvary Chapel in Salt Lake City. I heard no such thing that they could deliver salvation, that you had to attend regularly or any other policies dictating their church was the way to salvation. The pastor said simply there are things he'd say that some wouldn't like. If anyone had a problem please hold your peace until the service was over and meet him in the privacy of his office where he'd most likely say other things some may not like.
He prayed before every service adding that God help him stay out of the way of the Holy Spirit's work. He rarely preached topical sermons but selected a book and each verse read and gone over. There was no real timetable. I liked that method.
Today I attend another Calvary Chapel though the pastor preaches mostly a topical sermon. The bottom line though is that I believe he preaches truth and not a sugar-coated sermon to tickle the ears of the congregation. Again, there's no policy preached that the church is the only way to Christ.

Maybe I've been fortunate in that I've not attended many churches that taught a wayward doctrine. Yes there were a few but I can honestly say without doubt that there are churches out there worth attending. :yes

 

[handy]

My experiences with local church bodies have been overwhelmingly positive as well. As a matter of fact, it was when I was "going it alone" that I got caught up in a cult.

Even the local church body that I now am a part of is standing strong on faith. It's ironic to me that we have a woman pastor and so many would point fingers at that stating, "well then, that's an apostate church" when she is one of the one's fighting the hardest against the very real apostasies that the (largely male) leadership are leading the denomination into. I don't know how all this will pan out for my family, we might seek a new church after August, but nonetheless, our local congregation stands firm on God's word, proclaims the gospel, feeds the poor, provides clothing to those in need and are hard at work doing what God has commanded and are a family that comes together in love and unity when one has a need.

 

[Imagican]

In Revelation, when Christ addresses the members of The Church in different locations, HOW IS IT that He finds FAULT among them? Where did this FAULT come from? And EACH time He TELLS them what they MUST DO in order to be 'brought BACK' into alignment with TRUTH. But ULTIMATELY, where does the FAULT LIE?

Keep in mind, however that although Christ found fault with 5 of the 7, He didn't find fault with two of them, the congregations of Smyrna and Philadelphia. And, to the others, yes, He did rebuke each for their faults and exhort them to return, but He did not tell them to disband. As a matter of fact, a common theme of His exhortations was to hold fast, to keep what they had been given and to persevere as a body of believers.

And handy, I agree with everything that was offered. But you didn't address the QUESTION. And, what John witnessed in vision was TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO. And we can see through the letters of Paul to some of these SAME churches that those problems existed BACK THEN. Do you reacon 'things' have gotten BETTER?

The FAULT was 'brought about' by those that WEREN'T 'Spirit filled' LEADING others in ways that were NOT taught from 'above'. Men leading men in the WAYS of the flesh. And that is the NATURE of the flesh.

I couldn't tell you the 'FALSE DOCTRINE' that I have observed being PUSHED upon the innocent, (or ignroant, depending on how you want to look at it). All one NEED DO is 'tune in' to any television ministry, go to your local MEGA CHRISTIAN WORLD church, or even pick up a copy of 'your purpose driven life', (or whatever it was called). While EACH of these is able to offer a SEMBLANCE of truth, each falls FAR SHORT and even blatantly offers 'false doctrine' claiming it to BE The Word of God.

So, all I would offer is that those that 'don't know any better' BEWARE.

We can PLAINLY SEE that MOST of those that BELIEVE in the likes of Beni Hindi and Copelands were RAISED to believe in such a manner and will adamantly defend them to no end.

It is little different with ALL The churches except that some of them are not QUITE SO outlandish and choose a bit more SUBTLE approach in their 'false doctrines'.

Satan is coming. He will one day soon, be manifest upon this planet. And MOST are going to accept him AS God or AS Christ. That would be UTTERLY impossible IF the churches were NOT preparing the WAY for him.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Cornelius]

Many of us personally believe this is a false teaching that only leads to further division within God's ekklesia. [/size]

Just something to think about re ekklesia: If it can be divided, it is not truly the ekklesia. In truth the "called out ones" have left 1) the world 2) the apostate church 3) doctrines of man.

They have moved into 1)holiness 2) agreement with the Word alone.

So they cannot be divided and still be in agreement with the Word. Those who disagree with some aspect of the Word, is not truly "called out" . The ekklesia walk with God in agreement.Amo 3:3 Shall two walk together, except they have agreed?
We are either walking with the doctrine of our church, or we are walking with God and His Word.

We cannot do both and still claim to be "called out"

C

 

[Rick W]

And we can see through the letters of Paul to some of these SAME churches that those problems existed BACK THEN. Do you reacon 'things' have gotten BETTER?

Seems that's saying there really couldn't have been a "church age" to begin with since "those problems existed BACK THEN".

 

[Cornelius]

The church went into apostasy right after the apostles and some congregation during the time of the apostles. We have never had a pure church since. No matter what some believe.

However the news is not bad but good.Even though the church (due to its apostasy) has not been able to see, (let alone teach it ) there is prophesied a time of renewal.

We all know that two days means two thousand years (a day is as a thousand years, the Bible teaches) so we are now at "two days" after Jesus :

Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live before him.

I know those who cannot see the church in the OT has a problem understanding this, but there are many who in fact do understand that the Lord has known about this falling away, and that He is the one who will restore His church "after two days"

Its already happening. Some are indeed heeding the call "Come out of her (apostacy church ) my people" Many are walking out as the heed the call of the Holy Spirit. God has also been opening the Bible to those who decided to walk away from dogma. Seeing that the church is also likened to a fig tree. We are now also seeing the buds appear on the fig tree. Mat 24:32 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh;
The branches of the fig tree is indeed now tender and I am seeing small groups gathering and putting forth leaves everywhere. So , the Lord is near.

We are now standing in Rev 12, where the man child is about to be born (first fruits). The real church is going to leave the apostate churches sitting in their pews, still being taught by men who cling to their denominations dogma.

Look around you, its already happening.

Mat 24:33 even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.

 

[Imagican]

And we can see through the letters of Paul to some of these SAME churches that those problems existed BACK THEN. Do you reacon 'things' have gotten BETTER?

Seems that's saying there really couldn't have been a "church age" to begin with since "those problems existed BACK THEN".

While you LIKE to read words into my posts that are NOT offered, your reply comes as no surprise.

The Church WAS established. And SOON AFTER began to deteriorate. We can clearly see this in the words of Paul and the other apostles epistles.

But as far as what YOU probably consider the 'church age' to BE, I would agree with what you 'read into my post'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Rick W]

How long do you suppose the church age lasted?

 

[Vic C.]

How long do you suppose the church age lasted?

Which is one of the points of this topic; it lasts until Jesus returns. There is no scripture that says or even suggests the 'church' age ends, then there is a time of private interpretation, then He returns. It's just not there. That is man-made.

Its already happening. Some are indeed heeding the call "Come out of her (apostacy church ) my people" Many are walking out as the heed the call of the Holy Spirit. God has also been opening the Bible to those who decided to walk away from dogma. Seeing that the church is also likened to a fig tree. We are now also seeing the buds appear on the fig tree. Mat 24:32 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh;
The branches of the fig tree is indeed now tender and I am seeing small groups gathering and putting forth leaves everywhere. So , the Lord is near.

That is not only man-made interpretation, that is wrongly dividing the word of God. Rev 18:4 makes no mention of God calling people out of the 'church', that is interjected into the passage. The passage is about apostate Israel, Judaism. There are other valid interpretations, as Bonnie mentioned earlier, but the above isn't valid because Jesus hasn't returned yet to put an end to this current age. The fig tree analogy is also about Israel. This is taking what is meant for the nation of Israel and replacing her with the church. That's a belief of replacement theology.

 

[stranger]

mutzrein wrote:

I left an organised 'church' because of the apostacy within it. The tares were choking the wheat. Now, some would say that I am the apostate simply because my relationship with the Lord is based on faith in Christ rather than their doctrines.

To me, the church is not any specific group, denomination or whatever. It is those who are the wheat. Now while I recognise the chalf, I would much rather grow with other wheat around me.

Hi mutzrein,

The wheat and the weeds may not be the most appropriate parable for the Church though it has some relevance to an assembly. The church as I see it in the NT cannot happen with one isolated member and the head (which is Christ). The body of Christ has many members just as your body has various parts that are organically dependent upon one another. What then of the individual? He/she is simply a Christian alone in the world EXCEPT when in an asembly that forms the body of Christ. This really is the GENIUS of the Church - the assembly! Have you ever arrived at an assembly and discovered that you are early (and not a single person has arrived yet)? How strange that feels until the brothers and sisters in Christ start arriving or assembling together.

While many claim to be part of the Church - an yet separated from the Chruch - that claim is challenged by the simple question:

If you are part of the Church were are the other members or body parts of Christ ?

The invisible Church is already in glory - so claiming to be a member of that does not solve the problem of the missing body of Christ upon the earth.

blessings

Thankyou stranger. Where are the other members of the body of Christ? They are everywhere I go. Some in this 'church'. Some in that. Some outside of the 'church' - meeting in homes and public places. I have not removed myself from other members of the body for I long to have fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ where-ever they are.

Hello,

Fine, when you meet or assemble (and Church is ecclesia meaning to assembly) you are part of the body of Christ. When your meeting or assembly is finished and everyone goes home - where is the 'assembly of the saints then?' I'm glad to hear that you are part of a group that assembles 'in home or public' for what assembly (or Church) is there that does not assemble or meet together?

In affect I am asking where is the body of Christ - the assembly - when you are not assembled? Taken one step further:

How can those who NEVER INTEND TO ASSEMBLE claim to be part of the ASSEMBLY of the saints?

Obviously - this does not apply to you but ironically, presently at least - I am not attending any assembly or Church. This of course is a problem.

blessings:

 

[francisdesales]

How long do you suppose the church age lasted?

I didn't know it ended!

 

[Rick W]

What I'm seeing is people against joining a church, attempting to convince others to be of the same mind and in essence propagating the very apostasy that is claimed to be happening instead of putting forth the effort to do anything about the problems they profess.
It's like claiming a car is a piece of junk all the while using a sledge hammer on the engine.

 

[Cornelius]

What I'm seeing is people against joining a church, attempting to convince others to be of the same mind and in essence propagating the very apostasy that is claimed to be happening instead of putting forth the effort to do anything about the problems they profess.
It's like claiming a car is a piece of junk all the while using a sledge hammer on the engine.

I admit that after 30 years of Christianity I am against going to "church" I have not been able to sit in one lately, because I have not found any that stick to the Word only, they all stick to their denominational views above the Word. That is of course the reason they became a denomination in the first place. The Baptists do not agree with the Presbyterians, and the Charismatics do not agree with anybody else, the Catholics think they are correct, because they are the oldest mistake and so it carries on and on.

Talk to a Baptist and they will all tell you the same thing.They will tell you they are correct. Next week go to a Full Gospel and they will tell you why the Baptists are wrong.

So the question would be, which doctrine would suit one, and that is the church to join. I cannot do that. I have read the Bible for myself and so now I disagree with them all.( I know this will upset many, because it sounds if I now "know it all" but I can do nothing about it )

But the funny thing is , that I have been meeting with a lot of people just like me, who are also in disagreement with all the churches. But these people have not tried to form a new church . They have not started the "We disagree" denomination, but they somehow do not talk about dogma and they seem to care less about a formal "pastor". We meet wherever. We seem to be everywhere. I talk to some of them via email every week, they come to my house, I go to theirs. We break bread together, pray for each other. There are teachers, pastors, evangelist, prophets and yes apostles (which is of course blasphemy to many, if you say you met a real apostle ! because they are not suppose to be around anymore. ) They are all over the world, but have no committees , no buildings, no salaries. Just Christians . And they strange thing is, they all seem to agree. Just simply agree. God is doing something and the churches are going to hate what He is doing.