End Times According to Matthew 24 and 25 Part 1

[JLB]

As I said; IMO it applies to the events of 70AD and it applies to events yet to come.

I think verse 1 does apply to the events of 70 AD.

Just that His answer to their question refers to the events of Zechariah 14.


We can discuss this perspective from Daniel 9 if you like.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Jesus left the Temple, but not the Temple area.
The disciples were showing Him the buildings of the Temple, when Jesus told them... Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
You do understand the the mount of Olives is a Sabbath days journey from Jerusalem itself.
They we still in the Temple area, well within the city of Jerusalem when they came up to Him to show Him the buildings of the Temple.
Just because Jesus was outside the Temple doesn’t mean He was automatically up on the mount of Olives.


JLB

Yeah...
I think you're trying to put too fine a point on it.
To view the temple buildings, they would have to be some distance from them.

 

[Jim Parker]

I think verse 1 does apply to the events of 70 AD.
Just that His answer to their question refers to the events of Zechariah 14.
We can discuss this perspective from Daniel 9 if you like.
JLB

I find apocalyptic requires too much speculation to be a good subject for a productive discussion. There is a reason that the meanings are hidden. I think the reason is so we won't waste too much time on them.

 

[JLB]

Yeah...
I think you're trying to put too fine a point on it.
To view the temple buildings, they would have to be some distance from them.

To view the Temple buildings, they would have to be close enough to admire them.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I find apocalyptic requires too much speculation to be a good subject for a productive discussion. There is a reason that the meanings are hidden. I think the reason is so we won't waste too much time on them.

Well I tried to show my perspective from Zechariah 14, and how those verses correlate to the Olivet Discourse, in which they absolutely did not happen in 70 AD.

I don’t see how that’s hidden.


You are pulling from a historical perspective and I’m showing the prophetic perspective.

Again I’m not saying your wrong, just pointing out that it was Jesus speaking through Zechariah and Jesus teaching His disciples what He prophesied through Zechariah from the very mount of Olives His feet will touch down upon when He returns.


Daniel 9 also gives some perspective.



JLB

 

[JLB]

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), Matthew 24:15

If we read Matthew 24, then the instruction concerning the understanding of Daniel, specifically related to the abomination of desolation can be helpful in clarifying this subject.


“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:26-27


The events of the 70th week, and the abomination of desolation, take place well after the destruction of the city and sanctuary of verse 26.




JLB

 

[jasonc]

Hmm ,I don't have to be close to view valleys from moutains.i bet the city of Jerusalem can be seen from mountains miles away.8 miles is the max due to the curvature.a person can walk more then 8 miles a day

 

[JLB]

Hmm ,I don't have to be close to view valleys from moutains.i bet the city of Jerusalem can be seen from mountains miles away.8 miles is the max due to the curvature.a person can walk more then 8 miles a day

No doubt. The city can be seen from the mountains.


Do you believe the Temple is within the city of Jerusalem?

Is it possible that they could be outside the temple but still within the city where the buildings of the Temple were?



JLB

 

[JLB]

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), Matthew 24:15

If we read Matthew 24, then the instruction concerning the understanding of Daniel, specifically related to the abomination of desolation can be helpful in clarifying this subject.


“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:26-27


The events of the 70th week, and the abomination of desolation, take place well after the destruction of the city and sanctuary of verse 26.




JLB

The point of understanding Daniel.

In verse 26 the city and sanctuary is destroyed.


The abomination of desolation mentioned by Jesus involves a temple and holy place.


The abomination of desolation in verse 27 can only occur in a rebuilt temple since it was destroyed in verse 26 in 70 AD.


The events of the Olivet Discourse are therefore not about the events of 70 AD.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

To view the Temple buildings, they would have to be close enough to admire them.

A mile away would work.

 

[JLB]

A mile away would work.

So you believe that the Olivet Discourse is about the events of 70 AD and not Zechariah 14?

Did you understand my reference to
Daniel 9:26-27, where the events of verse 27, the abomination of desolation, come after the events of verse 26, which include Messiah being cut off and the city and sanctuary being destroyed?


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

So you believe that the Olivet Discourse is about the events of 70 AD and not Zechariah 14?

OK.
I'll try one more time.
I think the part concerning the abomination of Desolation is about BOTH.
One fulfillment has happened but we can expect another fulfillment to happen when the next temple is built.
Some of the Olivet discourse answers the question: "When will these things be?" (No stone left upon another)
And some of it answers the questions; "What will be the sign of the end of the age and of your coming?

Since the destruction of the temple took place ca. 70 AD, part of the answer concerns that past event.
Since Jesus has not yet returned, part of the discourse concerns that future event.

I hop that clears it up.

 

[JLB]

OK.
I'll try one more time.
I think the part concerning the abomination of Desolation is about BOTH.
One fulfillment has happened but we can expect another fulfillment to happen when the next temple is built.
Some of the Olivet discourse answers the question: "When will these things be?" (No stone left upon another)
And some of it answers the questions; "What will be the sign of the end of the age and of your coming?

Since the destruction of the temple took place ca. 70 AD, part of the answer concerns that past event.
Since Jesus has not yet returned, part of the discourse concerns that future event.

I hop that clears it up.

Ok.

Thanks for your time.



JLB

 

[Northman]

tacticus and also I believe the jewish historian,Josephus, along for the show would have recorded that.

Indeed. Operative words, "would have". Since they didn't record that....well I know you know.

 

[jasonc]

Indeed. Operative words, "would have". Since they didn't record that....well I know you know.

Joesephus did
Can a pagan waltz into the Holy of Holies and it not be defiled. No
Titus having himself there and his symbols of I'm god,is well what?
http://www.bible.ca/pre-mt24-abomination.htm

http://www.josephus.org/FlJosephus2/warChronology7Fall.html

6.316-322
Romans carry standards into the sanctuary at the east gate and sacrifice to them. So much gold has been taken from Temple that the price of gold throughout Syria is halved. The priests are executed by Titus

some translations vary, but this is reasonable in that the greek is not always clear and given it uses imagery to show where they entered I buy it.

a standard is the method by all would see caeser and worship him! you didnt have to see him. if it was there to proclaim diety and also loyalty you worshipped the image!


a bull was offered from Julius ceaser to Claudius, it also could include wine, cakes and incense .

I think that fits a desolation quite well.

 

[Northman]

Joesephus did
Can a pagan waltz into the Holy of Holies and it not be defiled. No
Titus having himself there and his symbols of I'm god,is well what?
http://www.bible.ca/pre-mt24-abomination.htm

http://www.josephus.org/FlJosephus2/warChronology7Fall.html

Sorry I thought that was in response to what was said about Titus putting a statue of himself at the temple, which isn't mentioned as something that happened in those links you gave. It doesn't matter to me too much what people what to call the desolation, but when the desolation is described and it is something that didn't happen, then things get weird. A flag is not a statue.

 

[Jim Parker]

when the desolation is described and it is something that didn't happen,

Here's the description of the destruction of the temple and the city according to Josephus:
[Titus] Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and Temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as they were of the greatest eminence; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison [in the Upper City], as were the towers [the three forts] also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall [surrounding Jerusalem], it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it [Jerusalem] had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind. (My underline)

The city was leveled. That is desolation.

 

[JLB]

Can a pagan waltz into the Holy of Holies and it not be defiled. No

Can a Jewish high priest who rejects Jesus as Messiah enter the holy place and it not be defiled? No.


Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22



JLB

 

[JLB]

Here's the description of the destruction of the temple and the city according to Josephus:
[Titus] Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and Temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as they were of the greatest eminence; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison [in the Upper City], as were the towers [the three forts] also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall [surrounding Jerusalem], it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it [Jerusalem] had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind. (My underline)

The city was leveled. That is desolation.

Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place refers to an intact Temple, complete with a holy place.


“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), Matthew 24:15


It is in Daniel that we find understanding.


The city and sanctuary were destroyed in 70 AD, which is found in verse 26.


“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26


The Romans destroyed the city and temple in 70 AD.


The Abomination of Desolation doesn’t occur until verse 27 and has Temple activities involved, which indicates a restored Temple with sacrifices.


Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.
Daniel 9:27


It is the prince who is to come that will confirm a covenant with many for one week.

This refers to the 70th week.

During that time the temple will be rebuilt.


This is what Jesus was referring to in the Olivet Discourse.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Can a Jewish high priest who rejects Jesus as Messiah enter the holy place and it not be defiled? No.

Is the Holy Place still the Holy Place after Jesus?
Everything in the tabernacle and then the temple pointed to Jesus.
And, after the sending of the Holy Spirit, the Church became the Holy Place.
So the high priest was just going into an empty room once a year.