Yes. New as having a quality, a “Divine Nature”, we did not have before, yet still human being.
JLB
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End Times According to Matthew 24 and 25 Part 1
- Thread starter Jim Parker
- Start date
Yes. New as having a quality, a “Divine Nature”, we did not have before, yet still human being.
JLB
Those questions have nothing to do with the Church so I don't think anything Jesus said in response would give us any clue about where we fit in.
Since it was the leadership of the Church asking the questions, then it has everything to do with the Church.
So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
Matthew 24:33
It is because of these signs Jesus gave, that He will not come as a thief in the night for the Church.
But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
1 Thessalonians 5:4-6
- let us watch and be sober.
We are to watch for the signs He gave.
JLB
Jim Parker
Member
Jim Parker
Member
That is a total non-sequitor.
The discussion had absolutely nothing to do with the Church.
There is absolutely no basis for any reference to the church (which did not as yet even exist).
Jesus was answering three specific questions asked by his disciples.
There is nothing in his answers from which we should logically draw any reference to the Church.
That is a leap too far.
If you post the word New with a scripture about Jesus who became flesh, we can examine it.
JLB
Who said the Church didn’t exist yet?
Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:15-17
The Apostles who asked the question about His coming and the end of the age are the foundation of the Church.
And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.
Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. Matthew 10:1-4
- He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles
Matthew 10 and 18 were before Matthew 24.
JLB
More commentary.
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Acts 7:38 KJV
again
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Romans 11:17-18
We Gentiles as wild Olive branches are grafted into the natural Olive tree, in which the root supports us.
The Covenant the Lord made with Abraham is what the nation of Israel, the natural Olive tree sprang forth from.
We are grafted in among them.
The Church is the Israel of God.
The Church did not replace Israel, but rather the True Israel of God has always been people of faith.
JLB
I agree and will add that Jesus started building His first Church on the coasts of Caesarea Philippi. Jesus is the rock and the disciples His congregation in training to be leaders of many more Churches that they went out to establish.
Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Truthfrees
Member
amen -
israel was called out chosen separated to the mission God had to reach the world/shine God's light in the nations through teaching and good works - nations were also then called - even at the exodus - to join israel to be a called out chosen separate to the same God-stated mission -
then Messiah came to call israel back to the called out chosen separated mission - and then paul came to reach out to the nations once again to call them to be grafted in
great scriptures -
the teaching that God replaced israel with the nations rather than the nations being grafted into the olive tree has confused the interpretation of scripture - thanks for posting
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Jim Parker
Member
Yes that’s the word we are discussing.
New (kainos) Covenant.
New (kainos) creation.
JLB
Like!
Jim Parker
Member
I just did.
At Matthew 18:15-17, Jesus was speaking to JEWS not to Christians. Christians go to "Church." Jews go to the synagogue and the temple.
Inserting today's common meaning for the word "church" into the meaning of the Greek word ekklēsia is an anachronism.
The Church to which Christians refer began on the day of Pentecost.
Jim Parker
Member
Jim Parker
Member
It is indeed.
The first Christians were considered a sect of Judaism.
Truthfrees
Member
The “Jews” He was speaking to were the foundational leadership of the Church.
Since for the first 10 years only Jews made up the Church, your opinion is moot.
Last I looked, followers of Jesus are the Church.
Apostles of Jesus are the Church.
Matthew 10 and 18 are called the Gospel of Matthew.
And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 8:11
Is there some other way to heaven besides Jesus?
JLB
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New Day Coming
Member
That's what I have always understood by it. I know there are mentions of the Church in the gospels but I don't think that the disciples would automatically know what this future group would be, or who it would be composed of. I'm not being dogmatic btw, just echoing an understanding I have always had, which seems to be fairly widely held.
Jim Parker
Member
Maybe - maybe not (John 6:66)
And, at the time of His speaking, the Church had not been established. That wasn't accomplished until Jesus was crucified, dead, buried, risen, ascended to the throne of the Father, and the Holy Spirit given.
Again, a logical non-sequitor,
1. Scripture does not indicate the elapsed time between Pentecost (When the Church was established) and Philip's preaching in Samaria (Acts 8) or Peter's visit with Cornelius (Acts 10) resulting in the conversion of his household to the faith.
2. And the Jews who made up the original Church are not equivalent of the Jews who did not follow Jesus. There has bee Judaism starting from the giving of the Law at Sinai. They are not who we commonly refer to as "the Church" since they were not followers of Jesus.
You are conflating a multitude of concepts.
And this has nothing to do with the OP.