End Times Confusing - Preterism

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Grappler, are you a literal "pillar", had God literally written on you the name of new Jerusalem? (rev.3:16). Did he use a marker or a crayon? Pillars can't discuss scripture, can they?

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

3 fold, yes.
I totally believe Eph6:12, but those things are the wiles of the devil, do word studies on each of the things we wrestle against and you will see they are not spirits or the devil, these are his devices.
Obviously evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse outside of Christ. This does not support your doctrine. It's like saying sinners will continue to sin mote and more, of course; that's why a man must be born again. As the kingdom of God fills the earth, more people will be born again, obviously.
Concerning the falling away, sure their will be a falling away before the Lord comes. There has been a following away in every generation. This again does not disprove apostolic doctrine.

Concerning the coming of the Lord, this passage is not dealing with the "second coming" as you believe it is.
Jesus came in the person of the Holy Ghost (john14:23) (this was also a "coming of the Lord")
Jesus also came in judgment on Israel through the hands of the Romans (math.24:3,34) (this was also a coming of the Lord)
Jesus will physically return (1cor.15:23)

Question:
In your understanding of acts 2:30-33, is Jesus already seated on the throne if David, which is actually the throne of God?

That is rather amusing. You claim to totally believe Eph. 6:12 but then you say that Paul really didn't mean what he said and then add your own interpretation to it. The powers and principalities behind these "wiles and devices" are real spiritual beings. Well the kingdom of God has been filling the earth for 2000 years and evil men continue to wax worse and worse. So i ask again Mr. Hope...which is it? Are you going to prepare the world for Jesus or is Jesus going to return and destroy the powers of evil as scripture teaches?? Your statement about the coming of the Lord is ridiculous. You say 'well Paul really didn't mean a physical coming of the Lord here but over in this verse he does'...what nonsense. Acts 2:30-33? Yes Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father....in the 3rd Heaven. Earth is still under the control of Satan. Paul actually refers to him as the god of this world.

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

You missunderstood my question brother.
I said show me one scripture where either Jesus or the apostles, speak of a future temple being rebuilt after the destruction of Herods temple.

I understood your question quite well brother.

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

Grappler, are you a literal "pillar", had God literally written on you the name of new Jerusalem? (rev.3:16). Did he use a marker or a crayon? Pillars can't discuss scripture, can they?

Ahh so now we are playing dumb?? I think when one studies scripture within context and applies proper hermaneutics to it one will be able to determine what is allegorical and what is to be taken literal. Now do you really want to play that game? Once you start playing what is literal and what is not you have just opened up a Pandora's Box.

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Need you to be a bit clearer regarding acts2:30-33. It the throne of God therefore synonymous with the throne of David then?

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Actually I do not like games when it comes to scripture.

Let's talk literal then.
Math.24:34
"Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled"

Jesus said this to a group of people who were standing in his midst (his contemporary generation), right?
Why is it that you say Jesus was not referring to the very generation which he was speaking to but to a far distant generation over 2000 years in the future?

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

You said "earth is still under the control of Satan"
Apostolic doctrine says (jesus' words) "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (math.28:18)
Paul actually call the devil the "god if this age" (the Greek word is age not world). Do not confuse age with the earth. Christ us right now king of heaven and earth, having all authority. He reigns in heaven ad Jesus, he reigns in earth through his Church.
Why are we kings and priests if we do not reign on earth with him now?

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Here is ridiculous for you brother
Math.10:23 "But when they persecute you in this city flee ye into another; for verily I say unto you, you shall not have gone over the cities if Israel till the Son of man be COME"
Is this the second coming?

Math.16:27 "Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the Son of man COMING in his kingdom"
Is this the second coming?

2Pet.1:16-18 "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount"

Was this his second coming? Was his second coming at the mount of transfiguration?

Maybe my "coming of the Lord" 3 fold interpretation is not so rediculous after all?

Like I said, the "coming" referred to in Math24 is not his second coming either!

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

Actually I do not like games when it comes to scripture.

Let's talk literal then.
Math.24:34
"Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled"

Jesus said this to a group of people who were standing in his midst (his contemporary generation), right?
Why is it that you say Jesus was not referring to the very generation which he was speaking to but to a far distant generation over 2000 years in the future?

Spoken like a true preterists.lol At least we know now where we stand even though you don't have the guts to admit it. Okay Mr. Preterists where shall we begin? Ok. Do you believe that everything that Jesus prophecied came to pass by 70 AD?

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

You said "earth is still under the control of Satan"
Apostolic doctrine says (jesus' words) "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (math.28:18)
Paul actually call the devil the "god if this age" (the Greek word is age not world). Do not confuse age with the earth. Christ us right now king of heaven and earth, having all authority. He reigns in heaven ad Jesus, he reigns in earth through his Church.
Why are we kings and priests if we do not reign on earth with him now?

2 Corinthians 4:4 " In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" ESV Now if you want to refer to it as "age" go ahead...changes nothing. We are still in that "age" waiting on the literal return of Jesus. What you seem to not be able to comprehend is that we have not yet inherited the earth. You can sit in your little comfortable home in front of your little computer and pretend that the Kingdom of God is on Earth presently while people from around the world suffer. Abortions. Murders. Rape. Torture. Wars. are growing. In the US we see perversions like "gay" marriage becoming accepted. I could go on and on with the cess pool this "age" is becoming and all you can say is 'hey everybody we are in the Kingdom now'. As i said before Mr. Hope...you and those who believe like you need to get out there and do a better job because you are losing.

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

Here is ridiculous for you brother
Math.10:23 "But when they persecute you in this city flee ye into another; for verily I say unto you, you shall not have gone over the cities if Israel till the Son of man be COME"
Is this the second coming?

Math.16:27 "Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the Son of man COMING in his kingdom"
Is this the second coming?

2Pet.1:16-18 "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount"

Was this his second coming? Was his second coming at the mount of transfiguration?

Maybe my "coming of the Lord" 3 fold interpretation is not so rediculous after all?

Like I said, the "coming" referred to in Math24 is not his second coming either!

Now you are grasping desperately at straws.lol You made the ridiculous claim that Paul was NOT referring to the 2nd Coming in 2 Thess. and then you said that he was in 1 Cor. 15. I want to know how you came to that conclusion? I want to know what scriptures told you that Paul was referring to different 2nd comings. The whole notion is as ridiculous as Preterism.

 

[Deborah13]

[MENTION=95193]Grappler[/MENTION] and [MENTION=96505]Hope of glory[/MENTION] , is there any way you could address this issue, scripture by scripture each giving your interpretation and scriptural support in some organized way. What I hear is a lot of assuming things about the other person, jumping around in scripture with no full interpretation. It's an argument between two men that is not very profitable to anyone else. At times you might as well be speaking in tongues with no interpretation, if you get my drift.
I'm hearing gongs and cymbals while trying to sort out the scripture.

Thanks a bunch, "you can do it!" (from the cheerleading squad)

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

You can call me a preterist but I am not. Just because you dont understand the doctrine the apostles preached doesn't mean I'm a preterist.
If math.16:27 in not referring to the second coming then my argument holds water. Obviously all those who Jesus was speaking of have died, so "his coming" was not speaking of a second coming, do you agree?
If you do, it does not make you a preterist either my friend

 

[JLB]

Re: End Times confusing

Show me in scripture once where Jesus or any of the apostles teach specifically that the temple would be rebuilt after it was to be destroyed in 70ad.

Here is your scripture that the Apostle Paul refers to the Temple in Jerusalem as the Temple of God.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God... And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,8

The Lord Jesus will destroy the lawless one.

The lawless one is a man

The lawless one will be revealed.

The lawless one will be alive when Jesus returns, and will be destroyed by the brightness of Lord's Appearing.

The purpose of the lawless one will be to deceive those who have denied the Lord jesus as Messiah and still desire a Messiah, one who will come to a Jewish Temple as the Jews say must happen in order to be the Messiah of the scriptures He must come to a Temple!


And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie.


JLB

Good point. The only problem with that is this so called temple will not be the temple of God...at least our God...it will be the temple of another god. Anyways it can't be the temple of our God because when Jesus was crucified the veil of the temple was ripped from top to bottom making it useless. Jesus was the final sacrifice anything else sacrificed will stink. This rebuilt temple will be an abomination in the sight of God. So why did Paul call it the temple of God?

As the early Church fathers wrote of this, "It was to define the Temple as being in Jerusalem".

The way I see it is: It is the temple that God uses for His purposes.

The lawless one; The person God uses to deceive those who refuse the truth.

The temple; The place where the person works miracles to deceive those who refuse the truth.

The signs and wonders; the things that are used to deceive those who refuse the truth.

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9

In that regard, it is the Temple of God.


JLB

 

[Eugene]

Thanks a bunch, "you can do it!" (from the cheerleading squad)

AND

 

[Grappler]

[MENTION=95193]Grappler[/MENTION] and [MENTION=96505]Hope of glory[/MENTION] , is there any way you could address this issue, scripture by scripture each giving your interpretation and scriptural support in some organized way. What I hear is a lot of assuming things about the other person, jumping around in scripture with no full interpretation. It's an argument between two men that is not very profitable to anyone else. At times you might as well be speaking in tongues with no interpretation, if you get my drift.
I'm hearing gongs and cymbals while trying to sort out the scripture.

Thanks a bunch, "you can do it!" (from the cheerleading squad)

you are right Deborah13. I will attempt to simplify my posts and support them better with scripture. I just don't like posting long drawn out posts telling everyone what i believe....this is not my pulpit....i prefer to look at this as a group converstation where everyone is allowed to talk....but not too long it gets boring trying to read someone's opinion of scripture especially when you have heard it a hundred times before (Preterism). End-times discussions are confusing, aren't they?

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

You can call me a preterist but I am not. Just because you dont understand the doctrine the apostles preached doesn't mean I'm a preterist.
If math.16:27 in not referring to the second coming then my argument holds water. Obviously all those who Jesus was speaking of have died, so "his coming" was not speaking of a second coming, do you agree?
If you do, it does not make you a preterist either my friend

No i don't necessarily agree with you. I tend to believe that Matt. 16:27 means just what it says...That the Son of Man (Jesus) is literally going to come back....this is just another description of the return of our Lord. Now i asked you a question earlier....do you think that all of Jesus' prophecies were fullfilled in that generation or by 70 AD?

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

Show me in scripture once where Jesus or any of the apostles teach specifically that the temple would be rebuilt after it was to be destroyed in 70ad.

Here is your scripture that the Apostle Paul refers to the Temple in Jerusalem as the Temple of God.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God... And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,8

The Lord Jesus will destroy the lawless one.

The lawless one is a man

The lawless one will be revealed.

The lawless one will be alive when Jesus returns, and will be destroyed by the brightness of Lord's Appearing.

The purpose of the lawless one will be to deceive those who have denied the Lord jesus as Messiah and still desire a Messiah, one who will come to a Jewish Temple as the Jews say must happen in order to be the Messiah of the scriptures He must come to a Temple!


And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie.


JLB

Good point. The only problem with that is this so called temple will not be the temple of God...at least our God...it will be the temple of another god. Anyways it can't be the temple of our God because when Jesus was crucified the veil of the temple was ripped from top to bottom making it useless. Jesus was the final sacrifice anything else sacrificed will stink. This rebuilt temple will be an abomination in the sight of God. So why did Paul call it the temple of God?

As the early Church fathers wrote of this, "It was to define the Temple as being in Jerusalem".

The way I see it is: It is the temple that God uses for His purposes.

The lawless one; The person God uses to deceive those who refuse the truth.

The temple; The place where the person works miracles to deceive those who refuse the truth.

The signs and wonders; the things that are used to deceive those who refuse the truth.

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9

In that regard, it is the Temple of God.


JLB

Well i guess we can agree to disagree on this issue JLB. I can't call any temple the temple of God...at least our God. I can call it the temple of god. I believe that Jesus the Son of God was the final sacrifice for all of mankind's sins. Any attempt by anyone...Jew or not, to rebuild a temple and begin the sacrifices again is an insult to what Jesus did....therefore an abomination in the sight of God.

 

[JLB]

Re: End Times confusing

You can call me a preterist but I am not. Just because you dont understand the doctrine the apostles preached doesn't mean I'm a preterist.
If math.16:27 in not referring to the second coming then my argument holds water. Obviously all those who Jesus was speaking of have died, so "his coming" was not speaking of a second coming, do you agree?
If you do, it does not make you a preterist either my friend

27 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

One way this scripture was fulfilled is with John.

John saw Jesus coming in His kingdom, and recorded it for us to encourage us in our faith in Jesus Christ.

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11

The Lord did not allow John to be Martyred until he saw the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom.


JLB

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

You can call me a preterist but I am not. Just because you dont understand the doctrine the apostles preached doesn't mean I'm a preterist.
If math.16:27 in not referring to the second coming then my argument holds water. Obviously all those who Jesus was speaking of have died, so "his coming" was not speaking of a second coming, do you agree?
If you do, it does not make you a preterist either my friend

27 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

One way this scripture was fulfilled is with John.

John saw Jesus coming in His kingdom, and recorded it for us to encourage us in our faith in Jesus Christ.

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11

The Lord did not allow John to be Martyred until he saw the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom.


JLB

Good point. You like to debate preterists don't you?lol