End Times Confusing - Preterism

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Grappler here us another scripture for you to consider.
Heb.1:13 "But unto which of the angels said he at anh time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool"
Jesus sits (denotes rest) on the right hand of God (which is in heaven) UNTIL his Father makes his enemies his footstool.
Sounds a lot like Heb.10:12-13 and Acts 3:21 to me.
Scripture is clear, Jesus is not returning to put his enemies under his feet, he already has (Eph.1:22). He will return when all enemies have been put under his feet.
The main reason the earth is in the shape its in is because the Church is divided. Many must repent and believe the gospel of the kingdom, his kingdom has come.
Consider this scripture:
Rev.12:10 "...now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God and the power of His Christ..."
This is not a "future scripture" or "future event"
If this is future, than salvation has not come and we are still in our sins!
But since salvation has come, this is not future.
And, since this is not future, NOW is come the "kingdom of our God and the power of his Christ" also!
SELA my brother!

 

[jasoncran]

while the church is a light unto the nations, it is not the glory of the Lord that will be upon all the earth. that will occur when the final judgement has happened. You sir argue that like a full preterist. if you aren't one then you Comment deleted are something new and take the full preterist position's idea on that.

I don't think you are lying just wrong.how can the glory of the Lord be so imperfect if it is the church?

 

[jasoncran]

Re: End Times confusing

yup another preterist position with that view. while I do agree with that but to say that the glory of the Lord is the church is a major stretch

 

[JLB]

Re: End Times confusing

Rev.12:10 "...now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God and the power of His Christ..." This is not a "future scripture" or "future event"

I gonna have to disagree with you here on this statement.

Revelation 12:10 is declared in light of The event of revelation 12:9

So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9

This is referring to the heavens being free of Satan's influence, not the earth.

This echoed in verse 12.

12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." Revelation 12:12

When He is cast down and confined to the Earth, his influence has be eradicated from the heavens. For no more will he accuse the brethren before God day and night. However now that he is cast down and confined to the earth, we can have access to him in our place of dominion, whereby we have dominion over him. This event starts the great tribulation. Notice in verse 14 the phrase time,times and a half of time.

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:13-17

The three and a half years in the wilderness, which prepares for the promise land.

That is why I like that scripture from Numbers better than Habakkuk! It shows what it will take for the earth to filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord. War.

Defeating the giants in the promise land, which was shadow of the last days conflict with Satan and his angels.

You with me.


JLB

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

Grappler here us another scripture for you to consider.
Heb.1:13 "But unto which of the angels said he at anh time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool"
Jesus sits (denotes rest) on the right hand of God (which is in heaven) UNTIL his Father makes his enemies his footstool.
Sounds a lot like Heb.10:12-13 and Acts 3:21 to me.
Scripture is clear, Jesus is not returning to put his enemies under his feet, he already has (Eph.1:22). He will return when all enemies have been put under his feet.
The main reason the earth is in the shape its in is because the Church is divided. Many must repent and believe the gospel of the kingdom, his kingdom has come.
Consider this scripture:
Rev.12:10 "...now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God and the power of His Christ..."
This is not a "future scripture" or "future event"
If this is future, than salvation has not come and we are still in our sins!
But since salvation has come, this is not future.
And, since this is not future, NOW is come the "kingdom of our God and the power of his Christ" also!
SELA my brother!

Here is some scripture for you to consider. 2 Thess. chapter 2-" Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,[a] 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness[b] is revealed, the son of destruction,[c] 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." Here is some more scripture for you to consider. Revelation 13:16 "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads." Here is some more scripture to consider. 1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." As you can see here friend the Devil is still roaming the Earth and if you don't believe scripture look around at the world today. Ephesians 6:12 "we wrestle not against flesh and blood....but against the rulers of darkness of THIS WORLD and against the spiritual powers in the heavenly places." These are the main reasons the earth is in the shape that it is in. Now it is time for you to stop your little charade and fess up buddy....you are a Preterist.

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

What specific statement or question would like me to address my friend?

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

What specific statement or question would like me to address my friend?

Friend....i just showed you...now stop playing this little game and address the issues that i have been bringing up. Go back and read my last two or three posts, pick a few statements and address them. Pretty simple huh?

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

First of all I'm not a preterist. I believe in the future bodily return of our Lord Jesus and the future physical bodily resurrection of all saints at the return of the Lord.

Second, yes their is a literal devil but we do not wrestle the devil we wrestle against his "wiles" (his devices, trickery)(v11), which are described in verse 12. And just because he is real and his wiles are real, doesnt mean they should overpower the saints for we are not "ignorant of his devices" (2 cor.2:11).
Greater is he who is in us than he who is in the world.... remember. (Math.28:18 Eph.1:21, 2:6)

If you still believe that rev.13:16 is talking about a literal writing on the head or hands then you need to be lifted up in the Spirit. Consider Ezek.9:4, rev.3:12.
The mark and the writing of a name speaks of the ingrafted nature. Those outside of Christ have the mark of the beast (Adam)-the number of a MAN. He is the beast.
Those in Christ, have received a new name written upon them-they have a nes nature...Christ.
As for 2thes.2 the day of the Lord is both a past event and a present reality in Christ. It is the realm of Spirit in Christ
Rev.1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lords day".
John is not speaking of a day of the week. He spoke of the realm of Spirit which is the Lords day.

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Sorry my brother I am not

 

[Deborah13]

Re: End Times confusing

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.

Could this be referring to - the right hand which should be the hand of righteous but is not it does instead unrighteousness?

and could "in their foreheads" be referring to "in their thoughts/minds"? again unrighteous

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

First of all I'm not a preterist. I believe in the future bodily return of our Lord Jesus and the future physical bodily resurrection of all saints at the return of the Lord.

Second, yes their is a literal devil but we do not wrestle the devil we wrestle against his "wiles" (his devices, trickery)(v11), which are described in verse 12. And just because he is real and his wiles are real, doesnt mean they should overpower the saints for we are not "ignorant of his devices" (2 cor.2:11).
Greater is he who is in us than he who is in the world.... remember. (Math.28:18 Eph.1:21, 2:6)

If you still believe that rev.13:16 is talking about a literal writing on the head or hands then you need to be lifted up in the Spirit. Consider Ezek.9:4, rev.3:12.
The mark and the writing of a name speaks of the ingrafted nature. Those outside of Christ have the mark of the beast (Adam)-the number of a MAN. He is the beast.
Those in Christ, have received a new name written upon them-they have a nes nature...Christ.
As for 2thes.2 the day of the Lord is both a past event and a present reality in Christ. It is the realm of Spirit in Christ
Rev.1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lords day".
John is not speaking of a day of the week. He spoke of the realm of Spirit which is the Lords day.

Freind...why do you deny scripture? Let me post Ephesians 6:12 in it's entirety "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." Yes i do take Revelation 13:16 literally. I believe that when the apostle John said that people would be forced to take a "mark" on their hand or forehead that he really meant it. Now you are the one that said "writing" not me. Ever hear of a micro-chip? Are you aware that they have the technology to implant a tiny chip into your body? John would not have known anything about a micro-chip...to him it would have looked like that people were being "marked". Now your premise is that you and those like you must rid the world of evil and prepare it for Christ. Paul makes it clear in 2 Thess. 2 that there is going to be a rebellion before the Lord returns and gathers us to him. Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:13 that evil men will wax worse and worse deceiving and being deceived. So which is it Hope?

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.

Could this be referring to - the right hand which should be the hand of righteous but is not it does instead unrighteousness?

and could "in their foreheads" be referring to "in their thoughts/minds"? again unrighteous

And could it not mean....well... exactly what it says it means??

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Yes
"head" speaks of the mind, either the mind of Christ or the carnal mind
"hand" speaks of our works, either works of faith or works of disobedience

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

The problem lies with your understanding of the "coming of the Lord". You see this as only 1 dimensional- future.
But, he is the Lord which was and is and is to come (3 dimensional)
You also believe that the "temple" of the Lord in 2Thes 2 is a future rebuilt temple, right?
Show me in scripture once where Jesus or any of the apostles teach specifically that the temple would be rebuilt after it was to be destroyed in 70ad.
Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost?
Anyone who understands the new covenant should not even consider that the scriptures would point to a future literal temple.
Show me 1 place please.

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

The problem lies with your understanding of the "coming of the Lord". You see this as only 1 dimensional- future.
But, he is the Lord which was and is and is to come (3 dimensional)
You also believe that the "temple" of the Lord in 2Thes 2 is a future rebuilt temple, right?
Show me in scripture once where Jesus or any of the apostles teach specifically that the temple would be rebuilt after it was to be destroyed in 70ad.
Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost?
Anyone who understands the new covenant should not even consider that the scriptures would point to a future literal temple.
Show me 1 place please.

Actually it is not a problem. It is only a problem for those who are deceived and being deceived. Paul wrote about the coming of the Lord as a future event. Does he have a problem understanding these things? Your use of the word 3 dimensional is incorrect. 3 dimensional refers to space not time. Now i ask you again...why do you deny Ephesians 6:12? I ask you again which is it? is there going to be a rebellion before the Lord returns or not? According to your beliefs it is up to you to prepare the world before Jesus returns. According to Paul evil me will wax worse and worse and there will be a falling away before our Lord returns and gathers us together to him.

 

[JLB]

Re: End Times confusing

Show me in scripture once where Jesus or any of the apostles teach specifically that the temple would be rebuilt after it was to be destroyed in 70ad.

Here is your scripture that the Apostle Paul refers to the Temple in Jerusalem as the Temple of God.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God... And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,8

The Lord Jesus will destroy the lawless one.

The lawless one is a man

The lawless one will be revealed.

The lawless one will be alive when Jesus returns, and will be destroyed by the brightness of Lord's Appearing.

The purpose of the lawless one will be to deceive those who have denied the Lord jesus as Messiah and still desire a Messiah, one who will come to a Jewish Temple as the Jews say must happen in order to be the Messiah of the scriptures He must come to a Temple!


And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie.


JLB

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

Show me in scripture once where Jesus or any of the apostles teach specifically that the temple would be rebuilt after it was to be destroyed in 70ad.

Here is your scripture that the Apostle Paul refers to the Temple in Jerusalem as the Temple of God.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God... And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,8

The Lord Jesus will destroy the lawless one.

The lawless one is a man

The lawless one will be revealed.

The lawless one will be alive when Jesus returns, and will be destroyed by the brightness of Lord's Appearing.

The purpose of the lawless one will be to deceive those who have denied the Lord jesus as Messiah and still desire a Messiah, one who will come to a Jewish Temple as the Jews say must happen in order to be the Messiah of the scriptures He must come to a Temple!


And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie.


JLB

Good point. The only problem with that is this so called temple will not be the temple of God...at least our God...it will be the temple of another god. Anyways it can't be the temple of our God because when Jesus was crucified the veil of the temple was ripped from top to bottom making it useless. Jesus was the final sacrifice anything else sacrificed will stink. This rebuilt temple will be an abomination in the sight of God. So why did Paul call it the temple of God?

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

3 fold, yes.
I totally believe Eph6:12, but those things are the wiles of the devil, do word studies on each of the things we wrestle against and you will see they are not spirits or the devil, these are his devices.
Obviously evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse outside of Christ. This does not support your doctrine. It's like saying sinners will continue to sin mote and more, of course; that's why a man must be born again. As the kingdom of God fills the earth, more people will be born again, obviously.
Concerning the falling away, sure their will be a falling away before the Lord comes. There has been a following away in every generation. This again does not disprove apostolic doctrine.

Concerning the coming of the Lord, this passage is not dealing with the "second coming" as you believe it is.
Jesus came in the person of the Holy Ghost (john14:23) (this was also a "coming of the Lord")
Jesus also came in judgment on Israel through the hands of the Romans (math.24:3,34) (this was also a coming of the Lord)
Jesus will physically return (1cor.15:23)

Question:
In your understanding of acts 2:30-33, is Jesus already seated on the throne if David, which is actually the throne of God?

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

You missunderstood my question brother.
I said show me one scripture where either Jesus or the apostles, speak of a future temple being rebuilt after the destruction of Herods temple.

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

I agree, no rebuilt temple could be the temple of God which we are.
But you still did not show me a scripture saying there will be a rebuilt temple after Herods.
This is my arguement:
If no scripture can be given which says clearly that there will be a rebuilt temple after the destruction of Herods, then we should not assume that the "temple of God" in 2thes 2 is a future temple.