end times discussion on the kingdom of christ

[Drew]

No one is saying, least of all me, that the integration of church and state means that people will not be free to worship as they see fit. All I am really saying is that we should democratically pursue the enshrinement of kingdom of God values in all institutions. And I think we should democratically pursue things like school prayer and other related things. I am simply saying that we should implement Jesus' kingship. And, if we do it "His" way, it will not be a tyrannical kind of thing.

Jesus taught us what His kingship was like. And is nothing like the kind of thing some of you seem to fear.

 

[jasoncran]

he is a preiterist,that is why i'm asking. to my knowledge drew believes that christian should form a theocracy and help usher in the return of christ. this is flawed to me as we are just as easily to become corrupt and fall into the same traps as anyone else. history has shown us this.

drew is a canadian, not american

I am not a preterist, I am a partial preterist (I think).

The scriptures are clear - Jesus is a sitting king. This is not really at issue. The real questions are (1) how should the church behave given this truth; and (2) why do so many people deny what the Bible so clearly teaches - that Jesus is King.

And I do not see what relevance my citizenhip is.

In any event, both you and Libre are seemingly not reading my post carefully. I am not, repeat not, in favour of any kind of human king, or pope. I think it is best to implement Jesus' kingship through the means of democracy.

i was stating that to the others who automatically assumed that you were american and woefully ignorant of our history.
it wasnt meant to offend. btw nature abhors a vaccum someone would have to lead or represent, a priest or political figure.

 

[RND]

This is not a Biblical statement - I challenge you to present any evidence at all that suggests that the "kingdom of God" is only "within us".

Seriously Drew, you need to read your Bible a little closer:

Luk 17:20 ¶ And when he (Jesus) was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he (Jesus) answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Is that clear enough?

When I refer to implementing the kingdom through democracy, I should have been more clear - my belief is that we need the kind of democracy we have in Canada and in the US - one that properly protects the rights of minorities.

Um, there isn't a democracy now, or has there ever been one, that protects the rights of minorities. You are referring to a "republican" form of government and as far as I'm aware the US nor Canada have one of those.

I challenge you to provide any Biblical evidence for your position.

Just as soon as you can produce evidence that the Bible advocates the co-mingling of church and state.

Keep this in mind however:

Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. Luk 22:26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

I am not sure what you mean by "theocracy".

The original government God established with Israel was a theocracy.

But, as many texts show, Jesus is presently in a kingship position in respect to this temporal world.

In the heart of the believer.

There is no inconsistency with believing that Jesus is presently King and also believing that He will return.

Jesus is certainly King and Lord in the heart of every believer.

This is the Achilles heel in the view that Jesus is not King - the Biblical texts clearly show that He is king.

Only in the hearts of those that want Him there. Jesus is not King where He is not wanted or welcomed.

So that is not the question. The question is "how does the church acts as loyal subjects, given that we know Jesus is already enthroned.

Easy. By obeying Him and His words.

 

[jasoncran]

before we continue let's keep this civil, i can see that its getting a little heated here already.

 

[RND]

My posts easily surpass the norm around here for clarity and precision.

As long as you think so.

The uncomfortable fact for you is that the Bible clearly has Jesus presently enthroned.

In the heart of every believer.

That is beyond reasonable doubt. The fact that you deny the teaching of the scripture is not a problem with my thinking, it is a problem with your view of the Bible.

I don't deny any scriptures Drew, I simply understand that Christs' kingdom is operated voluntarily and not by force. You believe that can be enforced by a temporal source - I don't. The carnal heart cannot nor will it obey God and His law Drew. Simple as that.

 

[Drew]

Seriously Drew, you need to read your Bible a little closer:

Luk 17:20 ¶ And when he (Jesus) was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he (Jesus) answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Is that clear enough?

Some assert that a brief of teaching in Luke 17, particularly verse 21, locate the kingdom of God as “inside†the believer, with the implication that the broader world does not fall under its jurisdiction. Here are several translations of verse 21:

NET: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst.â€

NIV: nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you."

NASB: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

NLT: You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is among you."

MSG:Nor when someone says, 'Look here!' or, 'There it is!' And why? Because God's kingdom is already among you."

BBE: And men will not say, See, it is here! or, There! for the kingdom of God is among you.

NRSV: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you."

NKJV: "nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Note how only 2 of these 8 translations render the last bit as “within youâ€. All the other translations have Jesus telling the listeners that the Kingdom is “in your midst†or “among you†– suggesting, of course, that the kingdom is “present right nowâ€.

And the fatal blow to the “within you†interpretation arises from who Jesus is speaking to:

Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed

If Jesus is saying that the “location†of the kingdom is specifically “within the human personâ€, Jesus is telling the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is within them, the Pharisees, in this sense. That's who He was talking to.

Not likely, of course – the Pharisees were precisely the ones in whom the kingdom was not present.

 

[jasoncran]

if that's what case why didnt the apostles then cause the kingdom of christ to come earlier, surely they had the faith to do it?

 

[Drew]

Just as soon as you can produce evidence that the Bible advocates the co-mingling of church and state.

Keep this in mind however:

Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. Luk 22:26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

I already have provided an argument from Acts 4 and Psalm 2. There are many others. The easiest one to make is based on this statement by Jesus:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

This is quite clear. When has Jesus gained His authority? Obviously sometime before He makes this statement. Does He have authority on earth? Yes. Does the text say "all authority on earth except political authority"? No it does not. This text alone confirms that Jesus is king over all wordly insitutions. All means all.

And the verse from Luke does not damage my case. Jesus is telling us how we should behave when we enact His authority. This teaching in no way undermines the claim that Jesus is King.

 

[Drew]

if that's what case why didnt the apostles then cause the kingdom of christ to come earlier, surely they had the faith to do it?

I am not sure what you are asking.

 

[researcher]

So in other words you favor the use of force, fear, intimidation and manipulation instead of using the example of love that Christ employed.

Isa 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

:yes

Voting is not how we serve the Lord. Humility is however.

Pro 20:26 A wise king scattereth the wicked, and bringeth the wheel over them.

So vote for a wise "king" with humility... ;)

 

[RND]

Note how only 2 of these 8 translations render the last bit as “within youâ€. All the other translations have Jesus telling the listeners that the Kingdom is “in your midst†or “among you†– suggesting, of course, that the kingdom is “present right nowâ€.

Where is "in your midst" to be found?

within = entos = from en - en 1722; inside (adverb or noun):--within.

And the fatal blow to the “within you†interpretation arises from who Jesus is speaking to:

Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed

If Jesus is saying that the “location†of the kingdom is specifically “within the human personâ€, Jesus is telling the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is within them, the Pharisees, in this sense.

Nope. A cursory glance at other translations show exactly what is being said: NLT - One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the Kingdom of God come?" Jesus replied, "The Kingdom of God isn't ushered in with visible signs. You won't be able to say, `Here it is!' or `It's over there!' For the Kingdom of God is among you.

Interestingly the NLT makes the distinction that "among you" may be considered "within you."

Not likely, of course – the Pharisees were precisely the ones in whom the kingdom was not present.

That's right - it wasn't "in" them.

 

[RND]

Pro 20:26 A wise king scattereth the wicked, and bringeth the wheel over them.

So vote for a wise "king" with humility... ;)

That's funny, but I choose not to vote.

 

[jasoncran]

if that's what case why didnt the apostles then cause the kingdom of christ to come earlier, surely they had the faith to do it?

I am not sure what you are asking.

why didn't they ie paul a roman citizen, with the werewithal, run for the roman senate and transform it into a theocracy and ensure the return of christ?

paul was a roman citizen, and to be one you had money, ie land, he could then run for office if he got in with the right people.

 

[RND]

I already have provided an argument from Acts 4 and Psalm 2. There are many others. The easiest one to make is based on this statement by Jesus:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

If you think these are examples of the Bible advocating the melding of church and state then I really don't know what to say.

This is quite clear. When has Jesus gained His authority? Obviously sometime before He makes this statement. Does He have authority on earth? Yes. Does the text say "all authority on earth except political authority"? No it does not. This text alone confirms that Jesus is king over all wordly insitutions. All means all.

Jesus has power over those that will gladly submit to Him Drew. He has no power over kingdoms and governments that reject Him. There is no evidence of any kingdom or government outside of the will of God standing for long.

And the verse from Luke does not damage my case. Jesus is telling us how we should behave when we enact His authority. This teaching in no way undermines the claim that Jesus is King.

It does undermine however your assertion that the Bible advocated the melding of church and state.

 

[Drew]

Where is "in your midst" to be found?

within = entos = from en - en 1722; inside (adverb or noun):--within.
Some of the translations render the relevant phrase as "in you midst".

You are not addressing the force of my argument. And that is that most translations render the controversial part as "among you" or "in your midst". And this is not the same concept as "inside you" or "within you".

Nope. A cursory glance at other translations show exactly what is being said: NLT - One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the Kingdom of God come?" Jesus replied, "The Kingdom of God isn't ushered in with visible signs. You won't be able to say, `Here it is!' or `It's over there!' For the Kingdom of God is among you.

This does not address my point. It was the Pharisees who asked about the Kingdom. Jesus answers the Pharisees. If, as you believe, Jesus is talking about an "internal Kingdom", then we have the decidedly odd situation of Jesus telling Pharisees that the kingdom is within them. No doubt, this is part of the reason why most translations do not go with the "within you" rendering.

 

[Drew]

I already have provided an argument from Acts 4 and Psalm 2. There are many others. The easiest one to make is based on this statement by Jesus:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

If you think these are examples of the Bible advocating the melding of church and state then I really don't know what to say.

I understand why you don't know what to say. If I held the position that Jesus has not been enthroned as king of the world, I certainly would not know how to respond to this text, which clearly shows that Jesus is, in fact, already king.

has power over those that will gladly submit to Him Drew.

Where does the text add this qualification, RND? It seems to be missing from my Bible. It is not proper exegesis to add such qualifications. Jesus says "all" and I suggest this means "all".

 

[Drew]

if that's what case why didnt the apostles then cause the kingdom of christ to come earlier, surely they had the faith to do it?

I am not sure what you are asking.

why didn't they ie paul a roman citizen, with the werewithal, run for the roman senate and transform it into a theocracy and ensure the return of christ?

paul was a roman citizen, and to be one you had money, ie land, he could then run for office if he got in with the right people.

The fact that Paul did not pursue this particular path does not mean that he does not believe that Jesus is king. He clearly does as Romans 1 shows. And remember this from Acts 17:

When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, "These men who have upset the world have come here also; 7and Jason has welcomed them, and they all act contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus."

 

[Drew]

It does undermine however your assertion that the Bible advocated the melding of church and state.

Well please tell us exactly how Jesus teaching works against separation of church and state. All I see is a teaching on how Christians should behave when placed in positions of power. Where does this text tell us that church and state should be separated?

 

[RND]

Some of the translations render the relevant phrase as "in you midst". You are not addressing the force of my argument. And that is that most translations render the controversial part as "among you" or "in your midst". And this is not the same concept as "inside you" or "within you".

Drew, "in your midst" means "within you." It's really that simple. You want to argue semantics Drew, I don't.

This does not address my point. It was the Pharisees who asked about the Kingdom. Jesus answers the Pharisees. If, as you believe, Jesus is talking about an "internal Kingdom", then we have the decidedly odd situation of Jesus telling Pharisees that the kingdom is within them. No doubt, this is part of the reason why most translations do not go with the "within you" rendering.

Drew, you seriously need to take the scripture as a whole instead of focusing on single points as you do. In Acts many of the very people that saw to it that Christ was crucified repented and were baptized - thus the kingdom of God was now "within" them.

Clearly you don't understand what verse 20 and 21 are conveying. The kingdom of God does not come by seeing it take place it comes without observation. It is "within you."

 

[jasoncran]

i disagree with that logic behind that, if the lord wanted to use for setting the earthly version via democracy, why not then not now, more clarity in biblical understand as the teachings of christ were very fresh, first person testimony.