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English (and common language) Versions of the Bible

  • Thread starter Thread starter Catholic Crusader
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Catholic Crusader

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There is a tendency to believe that there were no common language/English language Bibles before Tyndale and Wycliffe. This is not true, as there were translations and partial translations centuries before that. Allow me to quote an excerpt from Chapter 11 of the book "Where We Got The Bible" by Reverend Henry Graham:

.......Yet we may safely assert, and we can prove, that there were actually in existence among the people many copies of the Scriptures in the English tongue of that day. To begin far back, we have a copy of the work of Caedmon, a monk of Whitby, in the end of the seventh century, consisting of great portions of the Bible in the common tongue. In the next century we have the well-known translations of Venerable Bede, a monk of Jarrow, who died whilst busy with the Gospel of St. John. In the same (eighth) century we have the copies of Eadhelm, Bishop of Sherborne; of Guthlac, a hermit near Peterborough; and of Egbert, Bishop of Holy Island; these were all in Saxon, the language understood and spoken by the Christians of that time. Coming down a little later, we have the free translations of King Alfred the Great who was working at the Psalms when he died, and of Aelfric, Archbishop of Canterbury; as well as popular renderings of Holy Scripture like the Book of Durham, and the Rushworth Gloss and others that have survived the wreck of ages. After the Norman conquest in 1066, Anglo-Norman or Middle-English became the language of England, and consequently the next translations of the Bible we meet with are in that tongue. There are several specimens still known, such as the paraphrase of Orm (about 1150) and the Salus Animae (1050), the translations of William Shoreham and Richard Rolle, hermit of Hampole (died 1349). I say advisedly 'specimens' for those that have come down to us are merely indications of a much greater number that once existed, but afterwards perished. We have proof of this in the words of Blessed Thomas More, Lord Chancellor of England under Henry VIII who says: 'The whole Bible long before Wycliff's day was by virtuous and well-learned men translated into the English tongue, and by good and godly people with devotion and soberness well and reverently read' (Dialogues III). Again, 'The clergy keep no Bibles from the laity but such translations as be either not yet approved for good, or such as be already reproved for naught (i.e., bad, naughty) as Wycliff's was. For, as for old ones that were before Wycliff's days, they remain lawful and be in some folks' hand. I myself have seen, and can show you, Bibles, fair and old which have been known and seen by the Bishop of the Diocese, and left in laymen's hands and women's too, such as he knew for good and Catholic folk, that used them with soberness and devotion.' (2) But you will say, that is the witness of a Roman Catholic. Well, I shall advance Protestant testimony also.

The translators of the Authorised Version, in their 'Preface', referring to previous translations of the Scriptures into the language of the people, make the following important statements. After speaking of the Greek and Latin Versions, they proceed:

'The godly-learned were not content to have the Scriptures in the language which themselves understood, Greek and Latin ... but also for the behoof and edifying of the unlearned which hungered and thirsted after righteousness, and had souls to be saved as well as they, they provided translations into the Vulgar for their countrymen, insomuch that most nations under Heaven did shortly after their conversion hear Christ speaking unto them in their Mother tongue, not by the voice of their minister only but also by the written word translated.'......

There is one other thing to consider: Village peasants, which made up the bulk of the populations of Medeival Europe, were illiterate and died at relatively young ages. Even if there were a printing press before the 1500's - which there was not - it would have done the common man little good, as he could not read.

So, what are your thoughts and or comments on this?
 
Should it not have been the Church's mission to teach them to be literate?
 
No. Giving reading lessons is not one of the mandates Christ gave to His apostles. Christ said "...go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you..." He didn't say anything about opening up schools
 
Catholic Crusader said:
No. Giving reading lessons is not one of the mandates Christ gave to His apostles. Christ said "...go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you..." He didn't say anything about opening up schools

Read through the Prophets, and see what they did to educate the people.

I do believe that Christ said to take care of the least of these.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Should it not have been the Church's mission to teach them to be literate?

So what's your point? Another black mark against those evil Catholics? THEY didn't educate enough??? LOL, you'll have a hard time making that accusation stick. Who do you think kept the universities open during the Dark and Middle ages? Who do you think FOUNDED most of the schools all over the world that we still have today? You're barking up the wrong tree.
 
dadof10 said:
So what's your point? Another black mark against those evil Catholics? THEY didn't educate enough??? LOL, you'll have a hard time making that accusation stick. Who do you think kept the universities open during the Dark and Middle ages? Who do you think FOUNDED most of the schools all over the world that we still have today? You're barking up the wrong tree.
Amazing, isn't it? I was talking about vernacular versions of the Bible, and the guy above you wants to turn it into the Catholics are evil becaused we didn't build schools after the Empire crumbled. Don't let him drag you off topic. He just wants to stir up anger.
 
Here are some excerpts from a Website I found called "Bible Research: Internet Resources for Students of Scripture":

.....An illiterate herdsman named Cædmon, after hearing some Bible stories from the Celtic teachers at Whitby, turned some of the stories into poetic songs in his own language. This was about the year 670. From the eighth century we have an account of the "Venerable" Bede (a learned teacher at Jarrow, also in the north) translating the Gospel of John into Old English on his deathbed (735). This version has disappeared without a trace. There is no evidence of any version made in the south of England during this period.

At the beginning of the ninth century, the northern and eastern parts of England were invaded by another Germanic people called the Danes or Northmen. They were a heathen people, and did much harm to the monasteries where the Scriptures were copied. Nevertheless, from this period we have an historically important manuscript known as the Vespasian Psalter, which was written in the central part of England called Mercia. It contains an interlinear Old English translation of the Psalms......
.....During the tenth century Alfred's successors managed to dominate the new population of Danes, and, because the culture and language of the Danes was similar to that of the Anglo-Saxons, the newcomers were gradually absorbed into the population of the northeast and Christianized. About the year 950 the "Northumbrian Gloss on the Gospels" (an interlinear Old English translation, in the northern dialect) was added to the famous illuminated manuscript known as the Lindisfarne Gospels. Shortly after this a priest of Yorkshire (northern England) named Farman interlined another Latin manuscript with an idiomatic translation of the Gospel of Matthew (this is contained in the manuscript known as the Rushworth Gospels).

At the end of the tenth century the Danes attacked England again. This time however the Danish King, Sven, aimed merely to establish himself as an overlord, without destroying the native Anglo-Saxon nobility or filling the land with his countrymen. The English King, Ethelred, was unwilling to do battle against Sven, and so twice he payed Sven large sums of money to withdraw from the land. Eventually he fled to Normandy to take refuge with his wife's family. Sven became King of England, and he was succeeded by his son Canute. During this period there took place some very significant developments in the English church. The priests began to marry, and the cloistered ascetic culture of monasticism generally declined even in the south. There appeared in the south an anonymous version of the four Gospels in idiomatic English, known as the West-Saxon Gospels or Wessex Gospels. This version evidently had some currency in England, because seven copies of it have come down to us. Also at this time a scholarly priest named Ælfric in Dorsetshire was translating a number of commentaries into English, and at the request of a local nobleman Ælfric went on to produce an abridged English version of the Pentateuch.
.....Here is the Old English version of the Lord's Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13), as given in the West Saxon Gospels.

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum, Si þin nama gehalgod. to becume þin rice, gewurþe ðin willa, on eorðan swa swa on heofonum. urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg, and forgyf us ure gyltas, swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum. and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge, ac alys us of yfele. soþlice.

When Canute died, Ethelred's son Edward came from Normandy to be King. Because he had been raised in Normandy by a Norman mother, he was thoroughly French in culture and connections, and he appointed many Normans to offices in England. He was also very much under the influence of Rome (which tightly controlled the French churches), and so he appointed many Norman clerics to lucrative and powerful secular offices. Acting on behalf of the Pope he also appointed a suitably loyal Norman to be the Archbishop. In this however, he was ardently opposed by the powerful earls in England, who drove out the Norman archbishop and put in his place an Englishman. The Pope, being incensed at this "schismatic" action, excommunicated the English archbishop, and gave his support to the Duke of Normandy's plans for an invasion of England....
link: http://www.bible-researcher.com/anglo-saxon.html
 
dadof10 said:
aLoneVoice said:
Should it not have been the Church's mission to teach them to be literate?

So what's your point? Another black mark against those evil Catholics? THEY didn't educate enough??? LOL, you'll have a hard time making that accusation stick. Who do you think kept the universities open during the Dark and Middle ages? Who do you think FOUNDED most of the schools all over the world that we still have today? You're barking up the wrong tree.

Did I say it was a black mark? Did I say anything against Roman Catholics?

I said, the Church - I do not use a narrow definition of Church to mean only those who ascribe to Roman Catholic doctrine.
 
Catholic Crusader said:
dadof10 said:
aLoneVoice said:
Should it not have been the Church's mission to teach them to be literate?
So what's your point? Another black mark against those evil Catholics? THEY didn't educate enough??? LOL, you'll have a hard time making that accusation stick. Who do you think kept the universities open during the Dark and Middle ages? Who do you think FOUNDED most of the schools all over the world that we still have today? You're barking up the wrong tree.
Amazing, isn't it? I was talking about vernacular versions of the Bible, and the guy above you wants to turn it into the Catholics are evil becaused we didn't build schools after the Empire crumbled. LOL. What a shlameal

Talk about putting words in someone's mouth, and holding on to a huge chip on your shoulder.

I believe one of the points you made in the OP was that the people were illiterate, and therefore it wouldn't have done them much good because they couldn't read... here let me get the exact quote:

were illiterate and died at relatively young ages. Even if there were a printing press before the 1500's - which there was not - it would have done the common man little good, as he could not read.
 
The topic of this thread is Old English versions of the Bible before Tyndale. I will not allow you to turn this thread into another one of your anti-Catholic attacks.
 
.
I am going to quote the OP, since somebody immediately tried to steer this thread off topic right from the start:

Catholic Crusader said:
There is a tendency to believe that there were no common language/English language Bibles before Tyndale and Wycliffe. This is not true, as there were translations and partial translations centuries before that. Allow me to quote an excerpt from Chapter 11 of the book "Where We Got The Bible" by Reverend Henry Graham:

.......Yet we may safely assert, and we can prove, that there were actually in existence among the people many copies of the Scriptures in the English tongue of that day. To begin far back, we have a copy of the work of Caedmon, a monk of Whitby, in the end of the seventh century, consisting of great portions of the Bible in the common tongue. In the next century we have the well-known translations of Venerable Bede, a monk of Jarrow, who died whilst busy with the Gospel of St. John. In the same (eighth) century we have the copies of Eadhelm, Bishop of Sherborne; of Guthlac, a hermit near Peterborough; and of Egbert, Bishop of Holy Island; these were all in Saxon, the language understood and spoken by the Christians of that time. Coming down a little later, we have the free translations of King Alfred the Great who was working at the Psalms when he died, and of Aelfric, Archbishop of Canterbury; as well as popular renderings of Holy Scripture like the Book of Durham, and the Rushworth Gloss and others that have survived the wreck of ages. After the Norman conquest in 1066, Anglo-Norman or Middle-English became the language of England, and consequently the next translations of the Bible we meet with are in that tongue. There are several specimens still known, such as the paraphrase of Orm (about 1150) and the Salus Animae (1050), the translations of William Shoreham and Richard Rolle, hermit of Hampole (died 1349). I say advisedly 'specimens' for those that have come down to us are merely indications of a much greater number that once existed, but afterwards perished. We have proof of this in the words of Blessed Thomas More, Lord Chancellor of England under Henry VIII who says: 'The whole Bible long before Wycliff's day was by virtuous and well-learned men translated into the English tongue, and by good and godly people with devotion and soberness well and reverently read' (Dialogues III). Again, 'The clergy keep no Bibles from the laity but such translations as be either not yet approved for good, or such as be already reproved for naught (i.e., bad, naughty) as Wycliff's was. For, as for old ones that were before Wycliff's days, they remain lawful and be in some folks' hand. I myself have seen, and can show you, Bibles, fair and old which have been known and seen by the Bishop of the Diocese, and left in laymen's hands and women's too, such as he knew for good and Catholic folk, that used them with soberness and devotion.' (2) But you will say, that is the witness of a Roman Catholic. Well, I shall advance Protestant testimony also.

The translators of the Authorised Version, in their 'Preface', referring to previous translations of the Scriptures into the language of the people, make the following important statements. After speaking of the Greek and Latin Versions, they proceed:

'The godly-learned were not content to have the Scriptures in the language which themselves understood, Greek and Latin ... but also for the behoof and edifying of the unlearned which hungered and thirsted after righteousness, and had souls to be saved as well as they, they provided translations into the Vulgar for their countrymen, insomuch that most nations under Heaven did shortly after their conversion hear Christ speaking unto them in their Mother tongue, not by the voice of their minister only but also by the written word translated.'......

There is one other thing to consider: Village peasants, which made up the bulk of the populations of Medeival Europe, were illiterate and died at relatively young ages. Even if there were a printing press before the 1500's - which there was not - it would have done the common man little good, as he could not read.

So, what are your thoughts and or comments on this?
 
Catholic Crusader said:
The topic of this thread is Old English versions of the Bible before Tyndale. I will not allow you to turn this thread into another one of your anti-Catholic attacks.

Where have I attacked the Roman Catholic church? Please - remove your chip brother.. for the sake of your witness and for the cause of Christ.
 
There is one other thing to consider: Village peasants, which made up the bulk of the populations of Medeival Europe, were illiterate and died at relatively young ages. Even if there were a printing press before the 1500's - which there was not - it would have done the common man little good, as he could not read.

So, what are your thoughts and or comments on this?{/quote]

How can I derail a thread that includes the above quote, and that is what I was commenting on? Doesn't the OP clearly ask "what are you thoughts or comments on this?"

In fact, the OP wants us to consider that the peasants were illiterate!

Also, what is the source of the big quote?
 
Are you incapable of addressing the topic for some reason?
 
Catholic Crusader said:
There is one other thing to consider: Village peasants, which made up the bulk of the populations of Medeival Europe, were illiterate and died at relatively young ages. Even if there were a printing press before the 1500's - which there was not - it would have done the common man little good, as he could not read.

So, what are your thoughts and or comments on this?

Maybe illiterate, but they weren't dumb people. I bet they knew much of the scriptures by heart either by simply remembering favorite verses or by hearing it all the time in church services. A look at the artwork on stainglass windows, paintings, mosaics, and sculptures of the times gives evidence for a deep knowledge of the Bible. They didn't have TV to rot their brains. They probably were just as, or even more, knowledgable of the Bible stories than we "literate" people today.

Interesting history you've quoted though... kinda neat.
 
aLoneVoice said:
dadof10 said:
aLoneVoice said:
Should it not have been the Church's mission to teach them to be literate?

So what's your point? Another black mark against those evil Catholics? THEY didn't educate enough??? LOL, you'll have a hard time making that accusation stick. Who do you think kept the universities open during the Dark and Middle ages? Who do you think FOUNDED most of the schools all over the world that we still have today? You're barking up the wrong tree.

Did I say it was a black mark? Did I say anything against Roman Catholics?

I said, the Church - I do not use a narrow definition of Church to mean only those who ascribe to Roman Catholic doctrine.

CC is commenting on the the era before the 16th century. There was only ONE Church (capital C, as in your post) during that era, and that Church taught ONLY "Roman Catholic doctrine".

If I misunderstood you, I apologize. The question still stands, though. What was your point?
 
dadof10 said:
CC is commenting on the the era before the 16th century. There was only ONE Church (capital C, as in your post) during that era, and that Church taught ONLY "Roman Catholic doctrine".

If I misunderstood you, I apologize. The question still stands, though. What was your point?

Now we all know that is not entirely true dadof10... the term Church (capital C, if you will) refers to the Body of Christ, which is made up of believers who have been baptized. To suggest that Church refers only to the Roman Catholic denomination, is well, silly.
 
aLoneVoice said:
dadof10 said:
CC is commenting on the the era before the 16th century. There was only ONE Church (capital C, as in your post) during that era, and that Church taught ONLY "Roman Catholic doctrine".

If I misunderstood you, I apologize. The question still stands, though. What was your point?

Now we all know that is not entirely true dadof10... the term Church (capital C, if you will) refers to the Body of Christ, which is made up of believers who have been baptized. To suggest that Church refers only to the Roman Catholic denomination, is well, silly.

...And the question still goes unanswered.

If you want to start another thread on the topic of what the ONLY Christian Church looked like before 1500, go ahead. This is off topic.
 
Link to:
Anglo-Saxon Versions of Scripture (A.D. 600 - 1150)
LINK: http://www.bible-researcher.com/anglosaxon.html
lindisfarne1small.jpg
 
dadof10 said:
aLoneVoice said:
dadof10 said:
CC is commenting on the the era before the 16th century. There was only ONE Church (capital C, as in your post) during that era, and that Church taught ONLY "Roman Catholic doctrine".

If I misunderstood you, I apologize. The question still stands, though. What was your point?

Now we all know that is not entirely true dadof10... the term Church (capital C, if you will) refers to the Body of Christ, which is made up of believers who have been baptized. To suggest that Church refers only to the Roman Catholic denomination, is well, silly.

...And the question still goes unanswered.

If you want to start another thread on the topic of what the ONLY Christian Church looked like before 1500, go ahead. This is off topic.

You brought it up!
 
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