A Cessationist Passage?

[Hidden In Him]

1. Is this dream/vision false to Scripture?
2. Is this dream/vision false to the glory of Christ?
3. Is this dream/vision false to Christ-honoring love for others?
4. Is this dream/vision false to purity?
5. Is this dream/vision serving to make sin attractive to me and to make holiness unattractive?

I will let Bruce Leiter answer for himself there, Rodger, but speaking for myself, all of the above is innate. Those questions are always present in the mind without having to even be conscious of them. It's part of discernment IMO, in that your radar is up already in seeking to interpret the dream, so anything that comes off like this almost immediately gets detected.

 

[Rodger]

I will let Bruce Leiter answer for himself there, Rodger, but speaking for myself, all of the above is innate. Those questions are always present in the mind without having to even be conscious of them. It's part of discernment IMO, in that your radar is up already in seeking to interpret the dream, so anything that comes off like this almost immediately gets detected.

I appreciate your responce but I can not agree. "Innate" means natural, innate.
Innate refers to something existing in an individual from birth or based on natural qualities or abilities, rather than learned through experience or education.

Yes I agree that we all have a certain amount of discernment but that does not apply to seeking answers to dreams or visions. Again....IMHO we should seek answers in the Word of God and not in our own minds through dreams.

NO One has to agree with me.

That simply does not apply to a Christian. A Christian is a new creature. A Christian is indwelt with the Holy Spirit So what I am referring to is a Christian who is believing tthat God is speaking to him through dreams or visions.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I appreciate your responce but I can not agree. "Innate" means natural, innate.
Innate refers to something existing in an individual from birth or based on natural qualities or abilities, rather than learned through experience or education.

I meant it being part of one's nature as a Christian. How on earth could you think I was talking about having the ability to know if dreams glorify Christ or are false to scripture from birth? LoL : )

Rodger, you strike me the way most Cessationists do. Obstinate i.e. stubbornly refusing to change your opinion in spite of reason, arguments, persuasion, anything. So I guess I will leave it there.

God bless,
- H

 

[Rodger]

I meant it being part of one's nature as a Christian. How on earth could you think I was talking about having the ability to know if dreams glorify Christ or are false to scripture from birth? LoL : )

Rodger, you strike me the way most Cessationists do. Obstinate i.e. stubbornly refusing to change your opinion in spite of reason, arguments, persuasion, anything. So I guess I will leave it there.

God bless,
- H

Thank you for the opinion. FYI.....I am a Cessationsist for one reason and only one reason my brother.
It is what Scripture says to us.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10......

• Love never fails.
• Prophecies will cease.
• Tongues will be stilled.
• Knowledge will pass away.
• We know in part and prophesy in part.
• When completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

Those Scriptures say clearly that there will be a time when these gifts will cease because something better (“that which is perfect”) will replace them. Perfect in the original Greek means “complete”—the incomplete will be replaced by the complete. There is some debate as to what the coming of the “perfect” thing is. Now we can argue all day long about what the completeness is. You have stated what you think it is and I do not agree.

Now I would like to say this to you so that you will have something to think about.

When one Christian says that all tongues are over and another says that they are still valid today, you can see right off that there is a problem.

Coming from a Charismatic upbringing as a child, I was told and taught that a man can't be saved unless you speak in tongues. We were taught to ask people we came in contact with..........
"Are you save with the "evidence" of speaking tongues".

That implies that IF you are saved you Will speak in tongues!

Now, what I am saying to you is that these two views obviously will not have the richest fellowship.

Consider that fact that you just called be......"Obstinate, stubbornly refusing to change your opinion in spite of reason, arguments, persuasion, anything. "

I hope that you can see that right here in black and white "you" are looking at me as still unregenerate. Yes, I know that you will reject that but none the less, it is clear to me.

But even less extreme views can produce some distancing. If one person says that tongues is not of God (whatever its source), and another says that it is of God, then the first will view the second person's spirituality as having some illegitimate elements to it, while the second will see the first as not letting God work in his life. I hope you can see what I am saying without prejudice.

Many believe that the “perfect” thing to come is the glorification of believers in heaven, or, more properly, the eternal state.

That is not consistent with the literal words of the Scripture. Scripture says something is "coming"...the Perfect/complete. If we think that the perfect is the eternal state then we are saying that which is "going". We are going to heaven Not coming to heaven.

We can say and believe that the perfect, is Jesus Christ, and He will bring about the day when all is revealed to God's children. I have no problem with that at all, except if we study the literal Greek, "Perfect = Complete" and Jesus is Perfect. The argument could be made that He is also "complete" but to me that is reading into the Scriptures what we want them to say instead of accepting what they do say.

Now, may I say to you, exactly what you said to me in that you strike me the way all Charismatics do.... "Obstinate i.e. stubbornly refusing to change your opinion in spite of reason, arguments, persuasion, anything."

Then you said..." So I guess I will leave it there."

Wonderful. As always it is a blessing to speak with believers.

 

[hawkman]

Thank you for the opinion. FYI.....I am a Cessationsist for one reason and only one reason my brother.
It is what Scripture says to us.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10......

• Love never fails.
• Prophecies will cease.
• Tongues will be stilled.
• Knowledge will pass away.
• We know in part and prophesy in part.
• When completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

Those Scriptures say clearly that there will be a time when these gifts will cease because something better (“that which is perfect”) will replace them. Perfect in the original Greek means “complete”—the incomplete will be replaced by the complete. There is some debate as to what the coming of the “perfect” thing is. Now we can argue all day long about what the completeness is. You have stated what you think it is and I do not agree.

Many believe that the “perfect” thing to come is the glorification of believers in heaven, or, more properly, the eternal state.

That is not consistent with the literal words of the Scripture. Scripture says something is "coming"...the Perfect/complete. If we think that the perfect is the eternal state then we are saying that which is "going". We are going to heaven Not coming to heaven.

We can say and believe that the perfect, is Jesus Christ, and He will bring about the day when all is revealed to God's children. I have no problem with that at all, except if we study the literal Greek, "Perfect = Complete" and Jesus is Perfect. The argument could be made that He is also "complete" but to me that is reading into the Scriptures what we want them to say instead of accepting what they do say.

Now, may I say to you, exactly what you said to me in that you strike me the way all Charismatics do. "Obstinate i.e. stubbornly refusing to change your opinion in spite of reason, arguments, persuasion, anything."

All Charismatics that I know of "want to believe they have the Sign Gifts" given to the Apostles no matter what is said in Scriptures.

Then you said..." So I guess I will leave it there."

Wonderful. As always it is a blessing to speak with believers even if we do not agree on things that have no esstential factor in our salvation.

Has knowledge passed away ? Rodger

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I am sure that is the case. But let me ask you this, how do you know it was from God?

Satan is a master at counterfeiting the Lord game.

Satan can and does put thoughts in our minds, but God has given us everything we need to recognize them and renounce them. Here are the questions I think we need to ask of every thought that comes into our mind or every vision or dream we think comes from the Lord.....
1. Is this dream/vision false to Scripture?
2. Is this dream/vision false to the glory of Christ?
3. Is this dream/vision false to Christ-honoring love for others?
4. Is this dream/vision false to purity?
5. Is this dream/vision serving to make sin attractive to me and to make holiness unattractive?

Rodger, the vision wasn't false to 1-4, because its sole purpose was to build up the church's faith that God is still active and strong to guide his church today. It didn't make sin attractive because it came true even when they didn't expect it to, thus showing an immature church that God was really in control.

What they did with God's vision, I don't know because I wasn't there when it was fulfilled. Besides, that was their responsibility before God; mine was to tell them about it (Ezekiel 33).

 

[Hidden In Him]

1 Corinthians 13:8-10......

• Love never fails.
• Prophecies will cease.
• Tongues will be stilled.
• Knowledge will pass away.

Scripture doesn't teach that knowledge has passed away yet, anymore than it says the gifts have passed away.

Those Scriptures say clearly that there will be a time when these gifts will cease because something better (“that which is perfect”) will replace them. Perfect in the original Greek means “complete”—the incomplete will be replaced by the complete. There is some debate as to what the coming of the “perfect” thing is. Now we can argue all day long about what the completeness is. You have stated what you think it is and I do not agree.

You have argued that "that which is perfect" is the written word, which I have shown you is masculine not neuter. Nor can it be "the Bible," because that is feminine not neuter. Nor is it Jesus, since that's obviously in the masculine. It can be none of those things.

Coming from a Charismatic upbringing as a child, I was told and taught that a man can't be saved unless you speak in tongues. We were taught to ask people we came in contact with..........
"Are you save with the "evidence" of speaking tongues".

You were taught falsely, Roger, which appears to be the real problem here. Don't associate all Charismatics with the people who were misleading you. We are not all the same.

I hope that you can see that right here in black and white "you" are looking at me as still unregenerate. Yes, I know that you will reject that but none the less, it is clear to me.

Nonsense. I said obstinate, not unregenerate. The word just means stubborn. My apologies if it came off that strong. Most Christians tend to be stubborn in what they believe, including me I suppose, although I will be open if someone has a convincing case to reconsider my views. I was open-minded with your argument on "that which is in part" pointing to something like the written word. But I just don't think the argument holds water on closer analysis is all.

Now, may I say to you, exactly what you said to me in that you strike me the way all Charismatics do.... "Obstinate i.e. stubbornly refusing to change your opinion in spite of reason, arguments, persuasion, anything."

Then you said..." So I guess I will leave it there."

Wonderful. As always it is a blessing to speak with believers.

I wasn't dismissing you. I just don't wish to go round and round in a fruitless argument, as that would be unproductive.

 

[Rodger]

Has knowledge passed away ? Rodger

I would say that all the "knowledge" we have about Go, the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit are located in the written Word of God. We are commanded not to add anything to the Scriptures.

However, on the human side of life, we know that knowledge is a never-ending process. If knowledge ended we would not have cars, airplanes, x-ray machines and on and on and on.

For the gift of "knowledge" we must understand that God gives to us knowledge or insight into a particular situation, to help us in dealing with that situation. The word of knowledge is always partial knowledge. We never receive total and complete knowledge of a situation.

In the New Testament when this gift was exercised, they received not a total knowledge, only a partial knowledge of what the future held, but not all the details.

 

[hawkman]

For the gift of "knowledge" we must understand that God gives to us knowledge or insight into a particular situation, to help us in dealing with that situation. The word of knowledge is always partial knowledge. We never receive total and complete knowledge of a situation.

Are you part of the "We" above ?

 

[Hidden In Him]

For the gift of "knowledge" we must understand that God gives to us knowledge or insight into a particular situation, to help us in dealing with that situation. The word of knowledge is always partial knowledge. We never receive total and complete knowledge of a situation.

I think this is precisely what 1 Corinthians 13 is talking about. The teaching is in reference to word of knowledge and prophecy, whereby we still see in part. You would have to believe that the written word of God will cease in order to accept that the subject is the written word, and scripture says the world and everything in it will pass away, but His word will never pass away.

Btw, just making sure you saw this quote:

I said obstinate, not unregenerate. The word just means stubborn. My apologies if it came off that strong. Most Christians tend to be stubborn in what they believe, including me I suppose, although I will be open if someone has a convincing case to reconsider my views. I was open-minded with your argument on "that which is in part" pointing to something like the written word. But I just don't think the argument holds water on closer analysis is all.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Thank you for the opinion. FYI.....I am a Cessationsist for one reason and only one reason my brother.
It is what Scripture says to us.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10......

• Love never fails.
• Prophecies will cease.
• Tongues will be stilled.
• Knowledge will pass away.
• We know in part and prophesy in part.
• When completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

Those Scriptures say clearly that there will be a time when these gifts will cease because something better (“that which is perfect”) will replace them. Perfect in the original Greek means “complete”—the incomplete will be replaced by the complete. There is some debate as to what the coming of the “perfect” thing is. Now we can argue all day long about what the completeness is. You have stated what you think it is and I do not agree.

Now I would like to say this to you so that you will have something to think about.

When one Christian says that all tongues are over and another says that they are still valid today, you can see right off that there is a problem.

Coming from a Charismatic upbringing as a child, I was told and taught that a man can't be saved unless you speak in tongues. We were taught to ask people we came in contact with..........
"Are you save with the "evidence" of speaking tongues".

That implies that IF you are saved you Will speak in tongues!

Now, what I am saying to you is that these two views obviously will not have the richest fellowship.

Consider that fact that you just called be......"Obstinate, stubbornly refusing to change your opinion in spite of reason, arguments, persuasion, anything. "

I hope that you can see that right here in black and white "you" are looking at me as still unregenerate. Yes, I know that you will reject that but none the less, it is clear to me.

But even less extreme views can produce some distancing. If one person says that tongues is not of God (whatever its source), and another says that it is of God, then the first will view the second person's spirituality as having some illegitimate elements to it, while the second will see the first as not letting God work in his life. I hope you can see what I am saying without prejudice.

Many believe that the “perfect” thing to come is the glorification of believers in heaven, or, more properly, the eternal state.

That is not consistent with the literal words of the Scripture. Scripture says something is "coming"...the Perfect/complete. If we think that the perfect is the eternal state then we are saying that which is "going". We are going to heaven Not coming to heaven.

We can say and believe that the perfect, is Jesus Christ, and He will bring about the day when all is revealed to God's children. I have no problem with that at all, except if we study the literal Greek, "Perfect = Complete" and Jesus is Perfect. The argument could be made that He is also "complete" but to me that is reading into the Scriptures what we want them to say instead of accepting what they do say.

Now, may I say to you, exactly what you said to me in that you strike me the way all Charismatics do.... "Obstinate i.e. stubbornly refusing to change your opinion in spite of reason, arguments, persuasion, anything."

Then you said..." So I guess I will leave it there."

Wonderful. As always it is a blessing to speak with believers.

I don't think that it is an "either/or" question. My middle-aged son has spoken in tongues privately in prayer since he was in high school. I think that God did it in his life to teach him that the Christian faith isn't all intellectual.

However, I would look, instead, at 1 Corinthian 12-14, the whole context of the verses you are discussing, where Paul says that there are much more important gifts like prophecy (preaching and applying God's Word) and teaching than tongues. His emphasis means God doesn't give the more spectacular gifts to every believer, thus contradicting what you were taught.

Furthermore, the other lists of gifts in Romans 12 and Ephesians 4 never mention tongues or the other spectacular gifts giving us the understanding that the lists are descriptive of those individual churches, therefore telling us that God gives us those gifts only to some churches and individuals.

I attended a Pentecostal church where an evangelist was preaching, and the people in the seats were standing up and seemingly speaking in tongues so loudly that I couldn't hear the preacher. That's an abuse of that gift, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 14, where he says that tongues must be controlled by the speakers and have interpreters present so that people can be edified.

 

[Rodger]

Scripture doesn't teach that knowledge has passed away yet, anymore than it says the gifts have passed away.


You have argued that "that which is perfect" is the written word, which I have shown you is masculine not neuter. Nor can it be "the Bible," because that is feminine not neuter. Nor is it Jesus, since that's obviously in the masculine. It can be none of those things.


You were taught falsely, Roger, which appears to be the real problem here. Don't associate all Charismatics with the people who were misleading you. We are not all the same.


I wasn't dismissing you. I just don't wish to go round and round in a fruitless argument, as that would be unproductive.

AS well as me.

I am not argueing that the "perfect" is the Bible as much as I am simply saying that it is in MY opinion.

You said........
"Scripture doesn't teach that knowledge has passed away yet, anymore than it says the gifts have passed away."

I am going to leave this with you my friend as you have stated that you do not want to have a circuler conversation and I agree totally.

When it comes to 1 Corthians 13:8 It has to be comprehended from the whole context, beginning from 1 Corinthians 12:1. The Contxt is that apparently the members in the church of Corinthians had disputed about Spiritual Gifts and argument about which Spiritual Gifts was the greatest.

You and I both have the Bible and seen "that which is perfect has come (13:10).
We then, either by our own personal understanding or by listeing to other people teach us, made our choices on what that means.

And my reasoning goes that, now that the Church has the Bible, it no longer needs the Gifts.

I all must say that it should be remembered that the Apostles preached from the Old Testament and they were the one to whom the "sign gifts were given. (Mark 16:14-15)

Although I agree that the ending of Mark's Gospel is controversial, it does show that from a very early date, the spiritual gifts were expected to be in operation in the local church as they were given to the Apostles so as to "Prove" everything they said as coming from God Himself.

All of the Apostles had **these signs...as they cast out devils...spook with tongues...healed the sick (Mark 16:16-18).

Now, we can continue with this, but I do not know what else could be said so I will end my part of this by saying that Today, the written Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments form the evidence for our faith in Jesus Christ. While God continues to perform miracles, there is no need to provide miraculous sign gifts through particular spiritual leaders or for personal use.

 

[Rodger]

I don't think that it is an "either/or" question. My middle-aged son has spoken in tongues privately in prayer since he was in high school. I think that God did it in his life to teach him that the Christian faith isn't all intellectual.

However, I would look, instead, at 1 Corinthian 12-14, the whole context of the verses you are discussing, where Paul says that there are much more important gifts like prophecy (preaching and applying God's Word) and teaching than tongues. His emphasis means God doesn't give the more spectacular gifts to every believer, thus contradicting what you were taught.

Furthermore, the other lists of gifts in Romans 12 and Ephesians 4 never mention tongues or the other spectacular gifts giving us the understanding that the lists are descriptive of those individual churches, therefore telling us that God gives us those gifts only to some churches and individuals.

I attended a Pentecostal church where an evangelist was preaching, and the people in the seats were standing up and seemingly speaking in tongues so loudly that I couldn't hear the preacher. That's an abuse of that gift, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 14, where he says that tongues must be controlled by the speaker and have an interpreter present so that people can be edified.

My dear friend......do you think it is possible that what your son did is what he was encouraged to do by others in his circle of friends? Could it be that it came from enthusiasm?

FYI.....I was raised in the Charismatic Pentecostal church and to this day, I never saw the speaking in tongues done Biblically!

I appreciate your posts. I do hope you understand I am not arguing anything. Just posting my thoughts.

 

[Rodger]

I think this is precisely what 1 Corinthians 13 is talking about. The teaching is in reference to word of knowledge and prophecy, whereby we still see in part. that the wYou would have to believeritten word of God will cease in order to accept that the subject is the written word, and scripture says the world and everything in it will pass away, but His word will never pass away.

Btw, just making sure you saw this quote:

I do not agree with.........
"You would have to believe that the written word of God will cease in order to accept that the subject is the written word, and scripture says the world and everything in it will pass away, but His word will never pass away."

That just is not the case. When the Word of God was canonized, "Completed", then those things that were temporary ceased.

Just as the Scriptures said....."When I was a child I thought as a child but now I am a man".

I did not see the quote you posted. ..............

"Most Christians tend to be stubborn in what they believe, including me I suppose, although I will be open if someone has a convincing case to reconsider my views. I was open-minded with your argument on "that which is in part" pointing to something like the written word. But I just don't think the argument holds water on closer analysis is all."

That I agree with. May I add to what you said the fact that most people "Like what they know even if what they know is wrong".

I am not saying you are wrong, and I am right. I am only saying that we believe what we have been taught over the years and we are comfortable with that knowledge.

Personally, going back in my life about 60 years as a teenager, I was not comfortable with what I was being taught. The miracles, and tongues and a word of knowledge just made no scense to me. I worked, and went to seminary to learn the difference so that I could be comfortable.

Blessing to you and I have no desire to argue this point.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Personally, going back in my life about 60 years as a teenager, I was not comfortable with what I was being taught. The miracles, and tongues and a word of knowledge just made no scense to me. I worked, and went to seminary to learn the difference so that I could be comfortable.

Well thanks for sharing, and for being candid. I think this is why people who misrepresent the Charismatic movement do a great disservice to others. I was never taught anything growing up, so when I became a Christian it was with a completely clean slate. I hung out with both Baptists and Pentecostals at the college groups I was a part of, and I loved them both. But when the latter invited me to attend a convention in St.Louis and then told me there was another experience, and did I want to receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, my nonchalant reply was, "Sure. If it's something the Lord would have for me, then I am all for it," and I ended up receiving powerfully. I didn't just mumble things myself, the Spirit of God took me over, and I can tell you this because I know what it felt like on the inside.

Anyway, I find it sad when people turn Christians OFF to things like the outpouring and other supernatural phenomenon like receiving dreams from God, because I think it robs them of something God intended for them to have. But I'm certainly not foisting it on you if you have come to the conclusion those things are not needed and not necessary. We both at least agree that the written word should be primary.

Blessings in Christ, and thanks for the cordial exchanges.
- H

 

[Rodger]

Well thanks for sharing, and for being candid. I think this is why people who misrepresent the Charismatic movement do a great disservice to others. I was never taught anything growing up, so when I became a Christian it was with a completely clean slate. I hung out with both Baptists and Pentecostals at the college groups I was a part of, and I loved them both. But when the latter invited me to attend a convention in St.Louis and then told me there was another experience, and did I want to receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, my nonchalant reply was, "Sure. If it's something the Lord would have for me, then I am all for it," and I ended up receiving powerfully. I didn't just mumble things myself, the Spirit of God took me over, and I can tell you this because I know what it felt like on the inside.

Anyway, I find it sad when people turn Christians OFF to things like the outpouring and other supernatural phenomenon like receiving dreams from God, because I think it robs them of something God intended for them to have. But I'm certainly not foisting it on you if you have come to the conclusion those things are not needed and not necessary. We both at least agree that the written word should be primary.

Blessings in Christ, and thanks for the cordial exchanges.
- H

Absolutely brother.

What I learned many years ago from the Bible is that there is no 2nd filling of the Holy Spirit.

I need to tell you that I am first and foremost a Biblicist. I belong to a Southern Baptist church.

I have read and understood that while the concept of a second blessing is taught in a wide variety of churches, the phrase is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is strictly a "denominational" teaching.

John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement, is generally credited with originating the term second blessing. He taught that the second blessing was an act of God whereby a believer was granted deliverance from both inward and actual sin. While his language can at times be confusing, it is apparent that Wesley did not hold to the modern concept of sinless perfection, but rather acknowledged that believers should grow to a point of being wholeheartedly devoted and obedient to Christ. He believed this “perfection” could be attained either by a gradual growth in grace or by an instantaneous second work of grace.

According to Charismatic Pentecostals, the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. The Assemblies of God website states,......
“All believers are entitled to and should ardently expect and earnestly seek the promise of the Father, the baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire, according to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ. This was the normal experience of all in the early church.” They further teach that “this experience is distinct from and subsequent to the experience of the new birth.”

I am not criticizing them, only showing what is actually taught.

The Bible does speak often of the baptism of the Spirit, as well as the sanctification of believers, but not in the context of a second blessing or a second stage of the life of faith.

Confusion about the baptism and the filling of the Spirit leads to confusion in doctrine and you have seen that right here. The baptism of the Holy Spirit (also known as sealing or indwelling) happens at salvation and is for all believers (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 1:13). We are never commanded to seek it or pray for it.

The filling of the Spirit happens at the moment we accept Jesus as Christ.

 

[hawkman]

I need to tell you that I am first and foremost a Biblicist. I belong to a Southern Baptist church.

The Baptist persuasion is not immune to the Gifts .

Some years back I was playing music in band and two of the band members knew I was Pentecostal , so they asked about speaking in tongues .
Both of my fellow band mates were Baptists and most Baptist church's in the is area forbid tongues in their church's .
Both of my band mates told me how they had to come to learning about tongues in a practical sense .
Their stories were almost just alike . They both told of how they were alone praying to God and asking " Is there something more that I can have ! " they knew in their hearts there was more of God for them .
Both of them told of receiving the Gift of tongues while they were praying alone ! The joy they describing it retelling what happened to them lifted my spirits too !
Both of my friends had spent time behind the pulpit preaching God's word so they were well versed in the God's word . They understood the Gift of Tongues !

 

[Hidden In Him]

What I learned many years ago from the Bible is that there is no 2nd filling of the Holy Spirit.

I need to tell you that I am first and foremost a Biblicist. I belong to a Southern Baptist church.

I have read and understood that while the concept of a second blessing is taught in a wide variety of churches, the phrase is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is strictly a "denominational" teaching.

John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement, is generally credited with originating the term second blessing. He taught that the second blessing was an act of God whereby a believer was granted deliverance from both inward and actual sin. While his language can at times be confusing, it is apparent that Wesley did not hold to the modern concept of sinless perfection, but rather acknowledged that believers should grow to a point of being wholeheartedly devoted and obedient to Christ. He believed this “perfection” could be attained either by a gradual growth in grace or by an instantaneous second work of grace.

According to Charismatic Pentecostals, the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. The Assemblies of God website states,......
“All believers are entitled to and should ardently expect and earnestly seek the promise of the Father, the baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire, according to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ. This was the normal experience of all in the early church.” They further teach that “this experience is distinct from and subsequent to the experience of the new birth.”

I am not criticizing them, only showing what is actually taught.

The Bible does speak often of the baptism of the Spirit, as well as the sanctification of believers, but not in the context of a second blessing or a second stage of the life of faith.

Confusion about the baptism and the filling of the Spirit leads to confusion in doctrine and you have seen that right here. The baptism of the Holy Spirit (also known as sealing or indwelling) happens at salvation and is for all believers (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 1:13). We are never commanded to seek it or pray for it.

The filling of the Spirit happens at the moment we accept Jesus as Christ.

No, Roger. I did not mean that they were misrepresenting Pentecostalism by teaching that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience. That is completely Biblical, and plainly taught and provable in the word of God. I meant that if they teach there is no proof of having received unless one speaks in tongues then that is not Biblical. You're kind of twisting my words around there to say the exact opposite of what I was saying.

I think it's time to shut this thread down. It's indeed going around in circles now, but I appreciate your input.

Blessings,
- H