A Cessationist Passage?

[Hidden In Him]

Now, allow me to ask you this.....if YOU tell me that God spoke to you in a vision, how do you then respond to me saying to you-----He didnt speak to me, are you more of His favorite than me??????
Since He visited YOU and only YOU, dosent that completly change the written Word of God where we read in James 2:1 .....
"My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism."

Roger, I know this was directed to Hawkman, but my answer here if you can receive it is that the Lord very likely HAS been attempting to speak to you through dreams and visions, but because they were hard to make out and maybe seemed a little nonsensical to you, you just dismissed them out of hand. I know I did this for MANY years until I suddenly started learning how to interpret. I could have been receiving from God for the first 25 years of my walk with Christ but I didn't. And the reason was I simply wasn't sensitive enough to the leading of the Holy Spirit, not because I wasn't "favored" enough and someone else was : ) That's something many Cessationists assume we believe, but it just isn't so.

 

[Rodger]

Roger, I know this was directed to Hawkman, but my answer here if you can receive it is that the Lord very likely HAS been attempting to speak to you through dreams and visions, but because they were hard to make out and maybe seemed a little nonsensical to you, you just dismissed them out of hand. I know I did this for MANY years until I suddenly started learning how to interpret. I could have been receiving from God for the first 25 years of my walk with Christ but I didn't. And the reason was I simply wasn't sensitive enough to the leading of the Holy Spirit, not because I wasn't "favored" enough and someone else was : ) That's something many Cessationists assume we believe, but it just isn't so.

Thank you brother for the post. I appreciate your thoughts but on this topic we will have to be in disagreement.

I DO NOT believe that God speaks to us in dreams or visions or in fact in a audible voice.

God speaks to us today by His written Word. You see my friend, the Bible says that ALL men are liars!
Psalms 116:11....."I said in my haste, ALL men are liars".

Now of course, God did in times past before there was the Written Word of God, God did speak in those methods.

Hebrews 1:1......
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets".

But what about today, now. Hebrews 1:2.......
"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds".

That is confirmed in Matthew 17:5..........
“While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; HEAR ye him.”

Why???? Because Jesus is the author of all the Scriptures and He said what He wanted to say.

IMHO.....we must be very careful when it comes to believing that God spoke to "you" in a dream.
As I said......to think that God spoke to "YOU" in a dream places YOU in a position of elitism and as a favorite. That right there is against the Word of God.

Ecclesiastes 5:7.......
"For in many dreams and in many words there is emptiness. Rather, fear God."
This verse is a warn against placing hope or understanding in dreams. “Much dreaming . . . (is) meaningless.” Therefore, we shouldn’t dwell too much on dreams, and instead, turn to Scripture to hear God’s messages to us.

Jeremiah 29:8.........
"For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed."

Clearly and literally, we can see that this verse warns us against placing our faith in dreams. As we know from the Scriptures..."All men are liars" and sometimes those liars will speak about dreams that did not take place to sway God’s people. Christians have to be careful whenever anyone speaks about a dream and should test everything said about that dream against Scripture.

But....that is just my understanding and no one has to agree. All I ask anyone to do is think back over the years of YOUR life and remember when someone said....
"I had a vision last night and God spoke to me and said.......".

After that was said, were the next words something like......
"God said we need to build a new building"!
"God said that the church needs to give me a raise".
"God said I have been called to another church".
"God said we are short of our budget and all of you need to give an extra $100.oo today"!

 

[Rodger]

So you believe now that we have the the Bible there is no need for the Promise of the Father to empower our lives to be witnesses for Him and to do the works that Jesus did?

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. Acts 1:8

I will be the first one to agree that many have abused the gifts of the Spirit, and have turned people "off" from wanting to operate in them.

Nevertheless, at the end of the day, it's about what our Savior and Lord wants us to do to fulfill His purpose for our lives, and be doing that in these last days.

If you believe that now that we have the Bible, we don't need the power of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit, then I would like to see some scripture that says there is no more baptism with the Holy Spirit, no more apostles, no more power to live the Christian life and be a witness for Christ, no more healings, no more casting out devils, no more prophets...

It would be refreshing to see some scripture from Jesus, Paul and Peter and John, that teaches us the Church doesn't need any of these things the first century Church operated in anymore.




JLB

Now my dear friend. I NEVER said that we as believers do not need the power or help of the Holy Spirit.

Lets be Christian here and honest! Now then, you posted Acts 1:3-4 to support your comment.

So, allow me to post for context the 2nd verse Acts 1 so we can rightly divide the Word of God.........
"until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen".

So we see that it was the APOSTLES who Jesus was talking to.....Not You or me.

Then you posted Acts 1:4-5.........
"And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

The word "THEM" in verse #4 is in the Greek grammar an ANTICEDENT. It is the grammatical way of identifying who the THEM is which points back to verse #2 which tells that the THEM are the Apostles.

Then you asked..........
"It would be refreshing to see some scripture from Jesus, Paul and Peter and John, that teaches us the Church doesn't need any of these things the first century Church operated in anymore."

Now I hope that YOU will receive the Word of God as it is written and that YOU asked for it so here it is.........1 Corinthians 13:8-10---
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfect comes, what is in part disappears."

This is all about "Spiritual Gifts". It is seen here that the sign gifts were only in operation during the apostolic era to give special revelation until the completion of the New Testament and were only given to the APOSTLES. Before early Christians had the whole New Testament, they had to rely on words of knowledge, prophecy, and tongues to give them the full revelation of God. Once the church had possession of the full New Testament (the completeness), these gifts faded away as unnecessary. Faith, hope, and love continue to be in operation.

The meaning of perfect is "Complete". The Greek verb used for the cessation of tongues is in the middle voice, which indicates that they will cease “of themselves.” This is seen as further proof that tongues were temporary and would eventually pass away on their own.

 

[Rodger]

Test , yes we must .

The vision I saw was letters on a painting hanging on a wall . There was three other Christians present with me in the room , they did not see the letters . The letters were black and at least three inches tall so there was no reason they should not have seen them . God did not speak to me at this time .

Rodger , are you ready to see visions or to have God speak to you ?

Let me know when you have asked everyone else if they have had a vision from God or not . The whole of Christianity is not of the cessationist mold .

Unfortunately you are correct. I attribute to a lack of indepth Bible study.

You see my friend, I was raised in the Pentecostal church. I heard what the Pastor said and as a young man I believed it without testing it.

Then as I grew older and actually read the Word of God and did the study, I realized that the denomination was altering Scripture to validate the actions that they "wanted" to do.

If we read Mark 16:14-18 it does not take anytime at all to see that the "Sign Gifts" were given to the ELEVEN in verses 14. NO WHERE in Scripture does it say that we all today will have those sign gifts and in fact,,,the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 13 that all of those Gifts will end...cease.

I do not expect anyone to accept what I say. I would however only ask that anyone who is unsure, READ the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit to speak to you on these issues.

 

[hawkman]

If we read Mark 16:14-18 it does not take anytime at all to see that the "Sign Gifts" were given to the ELEVEN in verses 14.

Yes , I agree .

NO WHERE in Scripture does it say that we all today will have those sign gifts and in fact,,,the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 13 that all of those Gifts will end...cease.

Can you point a finger at the " perfect" ?

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I would however only ask that anyone who is unsure, READ the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit to speak to you on these issues.

Amen .

 

[Hidden In Him]

As I said......to think that God spoke to "YOU" in a dream places YOU in a position of elitism and as a favorite.

Roger, you have got to get over this false accusation business. It's not of God but a service to the enemy when you do this. I'm not saying that out of resentment because I've heard this argument so many times before, but in responsibility before the Lord here I am telling you, you dishonor both God and your brothers in Christ when you say these things, because it is bearing false witness against us.

Ecclesiastes 5:7.......
"For in many dreams and in many words there is emptiness. Rather, fear God."
This verse is a warn against placing hope or understanding in dreams. “Much dreaming . . . (is) meaningless.” Therefore, we shouldn’t dwell too much on dreams, and instead, turn to Scripture to hear God’s messages to us.

No, Roger, LoL. You appear to be misinterpreting this passage based on a doctrinal bias. Don't do that. This passage is not talking about dreams you have in sleep, it's talking about dreams you have in the sense of things you would like to attain in life, specifically through the agency of making vows to God for them. Read it in context and you will see this.

1 Walk prudently when you go to the house of God; and draw near to hear rather than to give the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they do evil. 2 Do not be rash with your mouth, And let not your heart utter anything hastily before God. For God is in heaven, and you on earth; Therefore let your words be few. 3 For a dream comes through much activity, and a fool's voice is known by his many words. 4 When you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it; For He has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you have vowed-- 5 Better not to vow than to vow and not pay. 6 Do not let your mouth cause your flesh to sin, nor say before the messenger of God that it was an error. Why should God be angry at your excuse and destroy the work of your hands? 7 For in the multitude of dreams and many words there is also vanity. But fear God. (Ecclesiastes 5:1-7)

"A dream comes through much activity, but a fool's voice is known by his many words" means, if want to attain something in life, go get to work actually seeking to make it happen through some good hard work, but don't be a dummy thinking you can just make a vow and God will do it for you, and then you screw up, break your vow, and now you become a complete fool who should have understood the words "Better not to vow than vow and not pay." In the multitude of dreams and many words is vanity because it's all a lot of talk - and foolish talk - rather than rolling up your sleeves and getting to work.

Jeremiah 29:8.........
"For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed."

This passage actually IS about those who receive false dreams, Roger, but it was during a time when Israel was at her most reprobate. You wouldn't say that there should never be any more teachers of the word of God anymore just because they were corrupt at this time as well, would you? That makes no sense. You need to rightly divide the word in it's context, not just in a way that favors a doctrine someone told you that isn't really true.

 

[JLB]

Now my dear friend. I NEVER said that we as believers do not need the power or help of the Holy Spirit.

Lets be Christian here and honest! Now then, you posted Acts 1:3-4 to support your comment.

The power of the Holy Spirit comes by the baptism with the Spirit.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:4-8

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the power to be a witness for Christ.

 

[Rodger]

Roger, you have got to get over this false accusation business. It's not of God but a service to the enemy when you do this. I'm not saying that out of resentment because I've heard this argument so many times before, but in responsibility before the Lord here I am telling you, you dishonor both God and your brothers in Christ when you say these things, because it is bearing false witness against us.


No, Roger, LoL. You appear to be misinterpreting this passage based on a doctrinal bias. Don't do that. This passage is not talking about dreams you have in sleep, it's talking about dreams you have in the sense of things you would like to attain in life, specifically through the agency of making vows to God for them. Read it in context and you will see this.

1 Walk prudently when you go to the house of God; and draw near to hear rather than to give the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they do evil. 2 Do not be rash with your mouth, And let not your heart utter anything hastily before God. For God is in heaven, and you on earth; Therefore let your words be few. 3 For a dream comes through much activity, and a fool's voice is known by his many words. 4 When you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it; For He has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you have vowed-- 5 Better not to vow than to vow and not pay. 6 Do not let your mouth cause your flesh to sin, nor say before the messenger of God that it was an error. Why should God be angry at your excuse and destroy the work of your hands? 7 For in the multitude of dreams and many words there is also vanity. But fear God. (Ecclesiastes 5:1-7)

"A dream comes through much activity, but a fool's voice is known by his many words" means, if want to attain something in life, go get to work actually seeking to make it happen through some good hard work, but don't be a dummy thinking you can just make a vow and God will do it for you, and then you screw up, break your vow, and now you become a complete fool who should have understood the words "Better not to vow than vow and not pay." In the multitude of dreams and many words is vanity because it's all a lot of talk - and foolish talk - rather than rolling up your sleeves and getting to work.


This passage actually IS about those who receive false dreams, Roger, but it was during a time when Israel was at her most reprobate. You wouldn't say that there should never be any more teachers of the word of God anymore just because they were corrupt at this time as well, would you? That makes no sense. You need to rightly divide the word in it's context, not just in a way that favors a doctrine someone told you that isn't really true.

I agree that the words dreams can mean ambitions in that Scripture. However, Dreams, in this context, can represent ambitions or plans that are not grounded in reality.

I say again that dreams and visions are no substitute for a conversation with God. As I have stated, many people say.....I have had a dream" or I have had an experience" and they place their trust in that event.

Many people today use an experience to test God in the face of Scripture that says we are not to test God. My dear friend, it is the other way around in that all experiences must be tested by the Word of God. That is exactly what 1 John 4:1 tells us.

Yes, Jeremiah 29:8 contextually speaks of a time of deep distress and exile for the Israelites.
Yes, God spoke directly to His people, urging them not to be misled by false prophets.
The fact that it is stated tells us that the practice of False Teachings coming from those who had dreams.

Those prophets were providing a false hope of a swift return from Babylon, contradicting God's intended plan for a longer stay and eventual restoration. Understanding the context of Jeremiah 29, the exiles were urged to accept their circumstances with patience and reconcile themselves to living in their new reality. This instruction followed the announcement that their captivity would last for seventy years, addressing their despair with a promise of a hopeful future when they would again return to their homeland.

The scripture warns about the dangers of deception. The literal words are=

"For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed."

 

[Rodger]

The power of the Holy Spirit comes by the baptism with the Spirit.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:4-8

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the power to be a witness for Christ.

I agree.

And the Holy Spirit comes to live in the heart of the believer at the moment he believes upon the Lord Jesus for the remission of his sin.

Again........the Scripture YOU posted is speaking directly to the Apostles....."THEM"!

 

[Rodger]

Yes , I agree .

Can you point a finger at the " perfect" ?

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Amen .

It is a blessing to have you agree.

May I say first of all that there seems to be no theological consensus as to what Paul meant by 'perfect'. If you read 10 different commentaries you will get 10 different answers.

Over years it has been said that the "Perfect" is one of 3 things.......
1) The body of Christ/Church
2) The 2nd Coming of Christ
3) The completed Word of God.

Now you asked if....."Can I point a finger at the perfect". I DO NOT KNOW!!!!

Remember you asked and it is OK if you do not accept my opinion.

IMHO, The Perfect is the completed Word of God that is totally sufficient to help Believers to live thoroughly furnished unto all good works as Jesus commanded to be perfect. It is through the lense of the Bible that allow us to understand who we are and where we want to go.

Feel free to disagree.

 

[hawkman]

Now you asked if....."Can I point a finger at the perfect". I DO NOT KNOW!!!!

Feel free to disagree.

I will not disagree with you not knowing .

 

[Hidden In Him]

I agree that the words dreams can mean ambitions in that Scripture. However, Dreams, in this context, can represent ambitions or plans that are not grounded in reality.

I say again that dreams and visions are no substitute for a conversation with God. As I have stated, many people say.....I have had a dream" or I have had an experience" and they place their trust in that event.

Many people today use an experience to test God in the face of Scripture that says we are not to test God. My dear friend, it is the other way around in that all experiences must be tested by the Word of God. That is exactly what 1 John 4:1 tells us.

You seem to be suggesting that prophetic dreams are always these positive things that give us a "dream" or an ambition. That's not the reality in my neck of the woods. Most dreams are warning dreams, and tell of negative circumstances that may occur if something is not done to change the current course of events. It is very similar to direct prophecy in that regard. You cannot say that Old Testament prophecies were usually filled with these glowing words of positive, happy "dreams" and ambitions. Most of them were dark and troubling warnings of foreboding things that were coming, unless circumstances were changed to prevent them.

Your parallel doesn't pan out in reality.

Yes, Jeremiah 29:8 contextually speaks of a time of deep distress and exile for the Israelites.
Yes, God spoke directly to His people, urging them not to be misled by false prophets.
The fact that it is stated tells us that the practice of False Teachings coming from those who had dreams.

You appear to be arguing that false teachings during this time period (and possibly any time period) came only from those who profess to have dreams. Is that your contention?

"For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed."

Again, you appear to be saying that Jeremiah was warning not to trust in dreams, is that correct?

 

[Rodger]

You seem to be suggesting that prophetic dreams are always these positive things that give us a "dream" or an ambition. That's not the reality in my neck of the woods. Most dreams are warning dreams, and tell of negative circumstances that may occur if something is not done to change the current course of events. It is very similar to direct prophecy in that regard. You cannot say that Old Testament prophecies were usually filled with these glowing words of positive, happy "dreams" and ambitions. Most of them were dark and troubling warnings of foreboding things that were coming, unless circumstances were changed to prevent them.

Your parallel doesn't pan out in reality.


You appear to be arguing that false teachings during this time period (and possibly any time period) came only from those who profess to have dreams. Is that your contention?


Again, you appear to be saying that Jeremiah was warning not to trust in dreams, is that correct?

I am simply saying in plain country boy language that dreams and visions are not to be trusted as coming from God. I have already posted Scriptures from Hebrews to validate that.

As plain as I know how to say it, in Jeremiah 29:8, God warns the people not to be deceived by false prophets and diviners who get their information in dreams. These individuals were spreading false hope, claiming that the exile would be short-lived. God makes it clear that these so-called prophets were not speaking His truth but were delivering messages fueled by the people’s desires rather than God’s plan. The command to avoid deception underscores the importance of discerning God’s voice and rejecting teachings that stray from His word.

Again....YES> Jeremiah had announced to the people of Jerusalem in Jere. 25:12 and 27:22 that the “dreams which ye cause to be dreamed” (an altogether exceptional phrase) indicates that the supply was created by a demand for visions of this nature.

 

[Rodger]

I will not disagree with you not knowing .

Do you think that sarcasm is acceptable as a moderator to speak to others. If I used that kind of sarcasm to respond to you, what would our conversation be now?????

I can not help but notice that you asked me but you made no opinion on what the "perfect" represents.

Why not surprise me with your opinion.

 

[Hidden In Him]

As plain as I know how to say it, in Jeremiah 29:8, God warns the people not to be deceived by false prophets and diviners who get their information in dreams.

Yes, but you are using this passage across the board to say that because of what was going on in Jeremiah's time dreams should no longer be trusted. Obviously that was not the case, because there are instances in New Testament times where dreams were from God and gave directives that were to be trusted.

The command to avoid deception underscores the importance of discerning God’s voice and rejecting teachings that stray from His word.

YES> Jeremiah had announced to the people of Jerusalem in Jere. 25:12 and 27:22 that the “dreams which ye cause to be dreamed” (an altogether exceptional phrase) indicates that the supply was created by a demand for visions of this nature.

See, again these are blanket statements that take Jeremiah's verses and turn them into a universal command from that time forward. That would mean that Joseph was in sin when he trusted in a dream to take Mary to Egypt. It would mean that Peter was advocating the whole church engage in sin by telling everyone present on the day of Pentecost that His people would see visions and dream dreams. It's not a very sound argument.

Do you think that sarcasm is acceptable as a moderator to speak to others. If I used that kind of sarcasm to respond to you, what would our conversation be now?????

Roger, if I may, the use of multiple question marks like this is a little insulting (I noticed you've done it twice now in this thread), as if the person you are discussing things with is making statements that should be regarded as insane. We had another member here who did this quite often but he has been banned now for being similarly insulting to others in other ways, so he would not be someone you want to emulate. Please consider stopping that practice. If it continues to be a growing trend, a rule will likely have to be written into the ToS or one of them adapted to make this a punishable offense. You may not consciously be meaning to do it, so I understand, but you are emulating a former member whose practices got him banned.

 

[hawkman]

Do you think that sarcasm is acceptable as a moderator to speak to others. If I used that kind of sarcasm to respond to you, what would our conversation be now?????

Pardon my sarcasm sometimes it slips out .

I can not help but notice that you asked me but you made no opinion on what the "perfect" represents.

I agree with #2 below .

2) The 2nd Coming of Christ

Why not surprise me with your opinion.

I have something for you that is not opinion . The "perfect " has not come yet .

 

[JLB]

I agree.

And the Holy Spirit comes to live in the heart of the believer at the moment he believes upon the Lord Jesus for the remission of his sin.

Again........the Scripture YOU posted is speaking directly to the Apostles....."THEM"!

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:38-39


The Promise of the Father, the baptism with the Holy Spirit is for everyone today, as it was for everyone in the first century.

 

[Rodger]

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:38-39


The Promise of the Father, the baptism with the Holy Spirit is for everyone today, as it was for everyone in the first century.

I am not sure what you are trying to say or what your point is. I agree completely with what you said as it is basic Bible doctrine.

The gift of the Holy Spirit is the promise given to all who accept Jesus as the Christ.

No where in that Scripture is a promise that the church receives the promises God gave to Israel IF that is what you are saying.

It is a blessing to speak to you.

 

[Rodger]

Yes, but you are using this passage across the board to say that because of what was going on in Jeremiah's time dreams should no longer be trusted. Obviously that was not the case, because there are instances in New Testament times where dreams were from God and gave directives that were to be trusted.



See, again these are blanket statements that take Jeremiah's verses and turn them into a universal command from that time forward. That would mean that Joseph was in sin when he trusted in a dream to take Mary to Egypt. It would mean that Peter was advocating the whole church engage in sin by telling everyone present on the day of Pentecost that His people would see visions and dream dreams. It's not a very sound argument.


Roger, if I may, the use of multiple question marks like this is a little insulting (I noticed you've done it twice now in this thread), as if the person you are discussing things with is making statements that should be regarded as insane. We had another member here who did this quite often but he has been banned now for being similarly insulting to others in other ways, so he would not be someone you want to emulate. Please consider stopping that practice. If it continues to be a growing trend, a rule will likely have to be written into the ToS or one of them adapted to make this a punishable offense. You may not consciously be meaning to do it, so I understand, but you are emulating a former member whose practices got him banned.

Thanks for your response and rebuke.

It is a habit that I admit to. It was done only to draw attention much like using "bold" type.

As for the Scripture in Jeremiah used as a blanket statement that dreams are not to be considered as God speaking to us today.

I used that Scripture because it is in the Bible and it speaks to God warning the People not to believe what someone tells them they had in a dream when they claim that message was from God.

I am not sure that "blanket" is the correct word, I just used it because it was there. Someone asked what Scriptures there were that spoke to God waring about dreams so there it is.

I look at that Scripture mush like I do Deuteronomy. Yes I know that it is the 2nd reading of the Law and the Law was given to Isreal and we are not required to keep the Law to be saved. However, we are to try and keep the morality of the 10 Commandments as they allow us to live a better life.
The fundamental values of righteousness, obedience, and ethical living are universal and can be embraced by individuals from various religious or spiritual backgrounds.

 

[Rodger]

Pardon my sarcasm sometimes it slips out .

I agree with #2 below .



I have something for you that is not opinion . The "perfect " has not come yet .

I do understand, and it is not a big deal to me. I just know that if it had been me someone would be warning me.

Now then.....the "perfect or Complete" can not be the 2nd Coming of Jesus, IMHO.
I know many people.....You who believe that and that is certainly a good opinion.
Many, many people believe that it means the future coming of “Jesus” and “Heaven”.

If that were correct, it would mean the continuance of the supernatural gifts like tongues and prophecy until the 2nd Coming, which is diametrically opposed to 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.

But most people recognize that the miracles of the Bible like raising the dead, walking on water, feeding thousands with a few loaves, and miraculously speaking in a foreign tongue don’t happen today. The Context of all of those events were to prove what Jesus was saying and that He was indeed the Messiah.

The absence of miracles today (note I did not say that God is not working providentially, answering prayers, etc) makes us doubt that Paul was speaking of supernatural gifts continuing until Jesus returns. Also, Mark 16:14-16 says literally that those Sign Gifts were given to the "Eleven" as they met with Him. Those Eleven were the Apostle and they, according to the Scriptures had ALL of those Sign Gifts.

OK. Now the Greek word for "perfect/complete" is TELEIOS.
In the Greek grammar, when describing things instead of people, the gender will always be neuter. That means the adjective has a named subject that it modifies.
That means if Jesus was the Contextual focus of the word TELEIOS the adjective would be "masculine" and not neuter.

But in the 1 Corinthians 13 passage, only the context can determine because the adjective stands alone: “the perfect/Complete = TELEIOS” . So the meaning of the adjective is determined by the context. I believe that the “perfect” of 1 Cor. 13 is the completed word of God.

The gender neutral therefore is a THING that the Holy Spirit indicates which means it can not be a person (Jesus). Therefore it seems to me that it is the completed Word, the Bible.

This not my opinion! It is Greek grammar and I did not write it, just posted it.

As for opinions......we all have them.