A Cessationist Passage?

[Bruce.Leiter]

Roger, I know this was directed to Hawkman, but my answer here if you can receive it is that the Lord very likely HAS been attempting to speak to you through dreams and visions, but because they were hard to make out and maybe seemed a little nonsensical to you, you just dismissed them out of hand. I know I did this for MANY years until I suddenly started learning how to interpret. I could have been receiving from God for the first 25 years of my walk with Christ but I didn't. And the reason was I simply wasn't sensitive enough to the leading of the Holy Spirit, not because I wasn't "favored" enough and someone else was : ) That's something many Cessationists assume we believe, but it just isn't so.

Shouldn't we distinguish between dreams and visions? I don't remember my dreams, but I can still remember the vision I had 21 years ago. It was a prophetic vision that came true after I left that area.

 

[hawkman]

OK. Now the Greek word for "perfect/complete" is TELEIOS.
In the Greek grammar, when describing things instead of people, the gender will always be neuter. That means the adjective has a named subject that it modifies.
That means if Jesus was the Contextual focus of the word TELEIOS the adjective would be "masculine" and not neuter.

But in the 1 Corinthians 13 passage, only the context can determine because the adjective stands alone: “the perfect/Complete = TELEIOS” . So the meaning of the adjective is determined by the context. I believe that the “perfect” of 1 Cor. 13 is the completed word of God.

The gender neutral therefore is a THING that the Holy Spirit indicates which means it can not be a person (Jesus). Therefore it seems to me that it is the completed Word, the Bible.

This not my opinion! It is Greek grammar and I did not write it, just posted it.

Thank you for this because it is a "thing" an event as you said below . We need clarity and glad you could provide .

2) The 2nd Coming of Christ

An event . No opinion given .

 

[Rodger]

Thank you for this because it is a "thing" an event as you said below . We need clarity and glad you could provide .

An event . No opinion given .

What I actually said was.....
"The gender neutral therefore is a THING that the Holy Spirit indicates which means it can not be a person (Jesus). Therefore it seems to me that it is the completed Word, the Bible.

I did not say "A thing" an event as you said below. IT can not be an "event" simply because the Greek grammar does not allow it to be.

You are free to believe anything you choose to believe and it is not up to me to change anyone.

So to be clear..I did not say that the Teleios was an event and that event is the 2nd Coming of Christ. I said that IMHO it is the completed Word of God...The Bible.

Blessing to you my friend.

 

[Rodger]

Shouldn't we distinguish between dreams and visions? I don't remember my dreams, but I can still remember the vision I had 21 years ago. It was a prophetic vision that came true after I left that area.

Bruce.....it is not up to me to make such distinctions. I am not willing to say that you did not have a vision or a dream that TO YOU seemed to be from God.

As for me, I do not believe that "visions or dreams" are God's method of communication today with His children and I posted the Scriptures that I believe speak to that situation.

I have stated that both of those were done in times past before there was a written Word of God.

Again, IMHO, Christians should consult Scripture any time they encounter a vivid dream that seems to have a meaning or authority greater than the regular dreams most of us experience each night.

If you take a look at the frequency of dreams in the Bible, most occur in the Old Testament. Since most who lived in the Old Testament had limited access to God’s word, or could not read, or in the case of those who lived before the time of Moses, God used dreams and visions as a way to communicate His messages to people. That is exactly what we see in Hebrews 1:1-3.

I am sure that someone will say yes but....what about Matthew 2:12 and 27:19 & Acts 16:9. All of those are valid but most of them involve the Apostles.

I am in no way trying to argue a point or change anyone opions on what they know.
All I am saying is that The Bible does mention believers having dreams in the last days, but those dreams should never usurp Scripture in terms of authority and we can not use the prophecy of Joel in the Acts to validate a point becuase we are not there yet. We soon will be but not today.

The warning I am saying is that God may place a dream in a Christian’s life to warn them about a future event, show a symbol that is important for that believer’s life, or to convey a certain message. However.....Whenever a Christian encounters such a dream, they should test the spirits by opening the Bible and reading what it has to say about the subject of that dream.

Thanks for the post and conversation.

 

[hawkman]

However.....Whenever a Christian encounters such a dream, they should test the spirits by opening the Bible and reading what it has to say about the subject of that dream.

Here is my dream , where should I look in the Bible ?

The dream was this. My wife and I were being chased around our car by a man with a gun, there was no where to hide and the dream ended with us kneeling on the ground with the gunman ready to shoot us beside our car.

 

[Hidden In Him]

So to be clear..I did not say that the Teleios was an event and that event is the 2nd Coming of Christ. I said that IMHO it is the completed Word of God...The Bible.

Roger, you are arguing that an event cannot be neutral the Greek text?

 

[Rodger]

Roger, you are arguing that an event cannot be neutral the Greek text?

No sir. I am not arguing at all. I do not like to argue with anyone.

What I am saying is that to interpret the Greek word, "TELEIOS=perfect/Complete”, to mean Jesus Christ or Heaven IMHO is inconsistent with both the context and with the usage in the rest of the New Testament.

Now it has been many, many years since I studied the Greek language. I have had to look this up to refresh my memory.

So then, when describing things instead of people, and an "event" would be a thing, the gender will be neuter. Most of the time, the adjective has a named subject that it modifies. But in the
1 Corinthians 13:10 passage, only the context can determine because the adjective stands alone: “the perfect.” So the meaning of the adjective is determined by the context.
I believe that the “perfect” of 1 Cor. 13 is the completed word of God.

I believe that both the Greek and the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10 do not lend to the idea that Jesus or heaven are in mind. Instead, the gender neutral THING that the Holy Spirit indicates is the completed Word, the Bible.

If you do not agree.....OK. I gave your what I believe are you are free to believe what you choose to believe.

 

[Rodger]

Here is my dream , where should I look in the Bible ?

The dream was this. My wife and I were being chased around our car by a man with a gun, there was no where to hide and the dream ended with us kneeling on the ground with the gunman ready to shoot us beside our car.

Now, I do not know if you are being serious or again, sarcastic.

Obviously, such a dream is not found in the Bible.
Cars not found in the Bible.
Guns are not found in the Bible.
Could God be trying to tell you to carry a gun in your car?
Could God be telling you to sell your car so that you will not be driving it?
Who knows and isnt that the problem?

Because of that fact, personally I would wake up, have a cup of coffee and go about my daily life. I would accept the fact that I had a dream like that because I forgot to take my meds, or I took too many meds or I ate something I should not have or I watched Law and Order too much. But that is just me.

Also, one thing I think that we all must be aware of is that sometimes, we can be attacked spiritually in our dreams as well. So how do we know we are under spiritual attack from the enemy?
Well, in your day-to-day living, have you discerned that you are in a season of spiritual attack?

 

[hawkman]

Now, I do not know if you are being serious or again, sarcastic.

Serious as a man shooting into cars , no sarcasm .

Because of that fact, personally I would wake up, have a cup of coffee and go about my daily life. I would accept the fact that I had a dream like that because I forgot to take my meds, or I took too many meds or I ate something I should not have or I watched Law and Order too much. But that is just me.

Well I did already know that God can send you a dream of your future when I had this dream . I had lived out a dream @ six months after I had it , that will make you really pay attention to your dreams from then on .
Here is write up of what happened with the gunman and our missed connection .

I had a short disturbing dream one night. The dream was this. My wife and I were being chased around our car by a man with a gun, there was no where to hide and the dream ended with us kneeling on the ground with the gunman ready to shoot us beside our car. I woke up and sat straight up in the bed in a cold sweat. I thought, this is not good at all. The year before I had a dream that I did live out in real time, now after that happens to you your dreams become serious for you, just saying.

Once a year my wife and I visit a dental school to get our teeth cleaned and help the students have some practical training and we save a little coin too. On the morning of our appointment at the school we got up in plenty of time to be in our car at a certain time. But no matter what we did that morning we could not get ready and get out the door , it was so strange because if we need to be out the door at certain time we are ! So we left about 30 minutes later than we thought we should. About half way into our drive of and hour and a half we come upon an intersection with many police and cars lined up at a stop sign, one car had a bullet hole in it's drivers side window. We saw the soles of their feet of people sitting on the ground next to the cars at the stop sign.

At this time my mind went back to my dream, I had told my wife of my dream too . It was a somber trip the rest of the way to the dental school. My wife's blood pressure was too high so they would not clean her teeth. They did clean my teeth and I had a first year student and that means it was a very slow process and more time than usual. At noon the students have to stop no matter if they are done or not with the patient. So we were later than normal going back home. We took the same route going home and before we got even close to the intersection where the shooting took place we were directed by a road crew to a different route and we got lost and had to refer to road maps and took about an hour extra getting home. (Unknown to us at the time the gunman had returned to the scene of the shooting to shoot at people some more). So we missed being shot at twice in one day! So did God keep us from getting out the door than morning at our decided time? I believe so. Later we found out what happened at the intersection.
https://www.wbrc.com/story/31760126/man-dead-after-shootout-police-chase-in-blount

 

[Hidden In Him]

So then, when describing things instead of people, and an "event" would be a thing, the gender will be neuter. Most of the time, the adjective has a named subject that it modifies. But in the
1 Corinthians 13:10 passage, only the context can determine because the adjective stands alone: “the perfect.” So the meaning of the adjective is determined by the context.
I believe that the “perfect” of 1 Cor. 13 is the completed word of God.

I believe that both the Greek and the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10 do not lend to the idea that Jesus or heaven are in mind. Instead, the gender neutral THING that the Holy Spirit indicates is the completed Word, the Bible.

If you do not agree.....OK. I gave your what I believe are you are free to believe what you choose to believe.

I think you are reading too much in, and here is why. There is a use by Paul of τέλειον in the neuter where it is paired with the neuter noun θέλημα, meaning "will" as in the will of God.

Don’t be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God (τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ, τὸ ἀγαθὸν καὶ εὐάρεστον καὶ τέλειον). - Romans 12:2

Now, the perfect will of God can refer to all kinds of things. I believe it refers to the perfect will of God being done in Heaven, such as when He said in Matthew 6, "In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."

I can show you again the interpretation of what I think the perfect will of God is talking about in 1st Corinthians 13, but my point here would be that it cannot be pinned down to simply meaning "the completed word, the Bible" based on the use of the neuter gender. I also think your argument falls short because βίβλος (Bible) is a feminine noun not a neuter one, and λόγος (word) is masculine.

 

[Rodger]

I think you are reading too much in, and here is why. There is a use by Paul of τέλειον in the neuter where it is paired with the neuter noun θέλημα, meaning "will" as in the will of God.

Don’t be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God (τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ, τὸ ἀγαθὸν καὶ εὐάρεστον καὶ τέλειον). - Romans 12:2

Now, the perfect will of God can refer to all kinds of things. I believe it refers to the perfect will of God being done in Heaven, such as when He said in Matthew 6, "In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."

I can show you another interpretation of what the perfect will of God is talking about in 1st Corinthians 13 if you are interested, but it is from the Continuist point of view. But my point here would be that it cannot be pinned down to meaning "the completed word, the Bible." I also think your argument falls short because βίβλος (Bible) is a feminine noun not a neuter one, and λόγος (word) is masculine.

It certainly would have been easier if Paul would have followed up on this so that we could all be in agreement.

 

[Rodger]

Serious as a man shooting into cars , no sarcasm .

Well I did already know that God can send you a dream of your future when I had this dream . I had lived out a dream @ six months after I had it , that will make you really pay attention to your dreams from then on .
Here is write up of what happened with the gunman and our missed connection .

Far be it for me to argue what has happened to you. I am very glad that you and your wife were not injured.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It certainly would have been easier if Paul would have followed up on this so that we could all be in agreement.

On that we agree. I suppose some things are left open to interpretation like this because it forces us all to draw closer to Him for the truth, if only for our own selves where we are in the Christian Faith. The OP for this thread was not anything I understood in my walk early on. It was only something I discovered recently, like in the last few years in fact, so I would argue that all works together for good to those who love God. I know discussing ideas with polite people like yourself is a blessing, as I almost never fail to learn something when the strife is taken out of it.

Blessings, and thanks for the interesting conversation.
- H

 

[Rodger]

On that we agree. I suppose some things are left open to interpretation like this because it forces us all to draw closer to Him for the truth, if only for our own selves where we are in the Christian Faith. The OP for this thread was not anything I understood in my walk early on. It was only something I discovered recently, like in the last few years in fact, so I would argue that all works together for good to those who love God. I know discussing ideas with polite people like yourself is a blessing, as I almost never fail to learn something when the strife is taken out of it.

Blessings, and thanks for the interesting conversation.
- H

Maybe...just maybe it was done in order to force us to read and study the Scriptures.

Now the reality of this is.......it just does not matter one way or the other. If Creation is 6000 years ago or 6 trillion years ago, when you find the right spot......there stands God saying "what took you so long"

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Bruce.....it is not up to me to make such distinctions. I am not willing to say that you did not have a vision or a dream that TO YOU seemed to be from God.

As for me, I do not believe that "visions or dreams" are God's method of communication today with His children and I posted the Scriptures that I believe speak to that situation.

I have stated that both of those were done in times past before there was a written Word of God.

Again, IMHO, Christians should consult Scripture any time they encounter a vivid dream that seems to have a meaning or authority greater than the regular dreams most of us experience each night.

If you take a look at the frequency of dreams in the Bible, most occur in the Old Testament. Since most who lived in the Old Testament had limited access to God’s word, or could not read, or in the case of those who lived before the time of Moses, God used dreams and visions as a way to communicate His messages to people. That is exactly what we see in Hebrews 1:1-3.

I am sure that someone will say yes but....what about Matthew 2:12 and 27:19 & Acts 16:9. All of those are valid but most of them involve the Apostles.

I am in no way trying to argue a point or change anyone opions on what they know.
All I am saying is that The Bible does mention believers having dreams in the last days, but those dreams should never usurp Scripture in terms of authority and we can not use the prophecy of Joel in the Acts to validate a point becuase we are not there yet. We soon will be but not today.

The warning I am saying is that God may place a dream in a Christian’s life to warn them about a future event, show a symbol that is important for that believer’s life, or to convey a certain message. However.....Whenever a Christian encounters such a dream, they should test the spirits by opening the Bible and reading what it has to say about the subject of that dream.

Thanks for the post and conversation.

You're welcome, Rodger! My vision that God gave me happened in Canada, when I was a pastor in Saskatoon. In May, I woke up (but didn't wake up) one morning with a vivid vision of our church completely empty, Then, I saw our members worshiping in a school gym and the children having Sunday School in the school's room.

The leadership hadn't talked at all about moving their place of worship or building a new building.

I got a call to a church in South Dakota that I knew God wanted me to accept. In December of that same year, I preached my last sermon before we left for the next church. I preached on 2 Corinthians 12:1-10 and shared with the congregation the vision God had given me, just as God had given Paul a vision of the third heaven. You have to understand that I had never had any visions before or after that experience.

After we left there, we heard that the church decided to build a new church on the north side of town, and they sold their building to a daycare, who assured them that they could stay long enough for the new building to be built.

However, the building of that new structure took a lot longer than anyone expected, and they had to rent the Christian school in which they worshiped in the gym and the children met in the classrooms!

That church was a very spiritually-immature group, and I still pray two decades later that God matured them beginning with his vision given to me.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If Creation is 6000 years ago or 6 trillion years ago, when you find the right spot......there stands God saying "what took you so long"

Yes He does, and it's a good thing. We are all just working towards where He wants us all to get, in knowledge, in virtue, in faith, in obedience. Thank Heavens He's merciful to us all.

 

[Rodger]

Yes He does, and it's a good thing. We are all just working towards where He wants us all to get, in knowledge, in virtue, in faith, in obedience. Thank Heavens He's merciful to us all.

Amen.

 

[Rodger]

You're welcome, Rodger! My vision that God gave me happened in Canada, when I was a pastor in Saskatoon. In May, I woke up (but didn't wake up) one morning with a vivid vision of our church completely empty, Then, I saw our members worshiping in a school gym and the children having Sunday School in the school's room.

The leadership hadn't talked at all about moving their place of worship or building a new building.

I got a call to a church in South Dakota that I knew God wanted me to accept. In December of that same year, I preached my last sermon before we left for the next church. I preached on 2 Corinthians 12:1-10 and shared with the congregation the vision God had given me, just as God had given Paul a vision of the third heaven. You have to understand that I had never had any visions before or after that experience.

After we left there, we heard that the church decided to build a new church on the north side of town, and they sold their building to a daycare, who assured them that they could stay long enough for the new building to be built.

However, the building of that new structure took a lot longer than anyone expected, and they had to rent the Christian school in which they worshiped in the gym and the children met in the classrooms!

That church was a very spiritually-immature group, and I still pray two decades later that God matured them beginning with his vision given to me.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is no limit to what God can do.

However, I am also trying to say that at the same time, we must be careful when it comes to visions and the interpretation of visions. We must keep in mind that the Bible is finished, and it tells us everything we need to know.


https://www.gotquestions.org/visions-Christian.html
Below from above link at Got Questions .

The key truth is that if God were to give a vision, it would agree completely with what He has already revealed in His Word. Visions should never be given equal or greater authority than the Word of God. God’s Word is our ultimate authority for Christian faith and practice. If you believe you have had a vision and feel that perhaps God gave it to you, prayerfully examine the Word of God and make sure your vision is in agreement with Scripture. Then prayerfully consider what God would have you do in response to the vision (James 1:5). God would not give a vision to a person and then keep the meaning of the vision hidden. In Scripture, whenever a person asked God for the meaning of a vision, God made sure it was explained to the person (Daniel 8:15-17).

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is no limit to what God can do.

However, I am also trying to say that at the same time, we must be careful when it comes to visions and the interpretation of visions. We must keep in mind that the Bible is finished, and it tells us everything we need to know.

The key truth is that if God were to give a vision, it would agree completely with what He has already revealed in His Word. Visions should never be given equal or greater authority than the Word of God. God’s Word is our ultimate authority for Christian faith and practice. If you believe you have had a vision and feel that perhaps God gave it to you, prayerfully examine the Word of God and make sure your vision is in agreement with Scripture. Then prayerfully consider what God would have you do in response to the vision (James 1:5). God would not give a vision to a person and then keep the meaning of the vision hidden. In Scripture, whenever a person asked God for the meaning of a vision, God made sure it was explained to the person (Daniel 8:15-17).

I'm sure he gave me that vision to share with the congregation and eventually to edify them.

 

[Rodger]

I'm sure he gave me that vision to share with the congregation and eventually to edify them.

I am sure that is the case. But let me ask you this, how do you know it was from God?

Satan is a master at counterfeiting the Lord game.

Satan can and does put thoughts in our minds, but God has given us everything we need to recognize them and renounce them. Here are the questions I think we need to ask of every thought that comes into our mind or every vision or dream we think comes from the Lord.....
1. Is this dream/vision false to Scripture?
2. Is this dream/vision false to the glory of Christ?
3. Is this dream/vision false to Christ-honoring love for others?
4. Is this dream/vision false to purity?
5. Is this dream/vision serving to make sin attractive to me and to make holiness unattractive?