Bible Study Ephesians 4:11 - 16 Scripture says we need all five.

[Chopper]

Dr. Scolfield, and dispensation has, in my opinion, cast some problems in interpreting Scripture like Eph. 4:11...... I believe that the five fold ministry in our churches is vital, and serious edification lacks as the result of removing two important leaders for the "building up the body of Christ".

The text says: "And He gave the Apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12. to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13. until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". Verses 14 thru 16 explains why we need these men. To my knowledge, the Church of Jesus Christ has never attained to verse 13. It's no wonder our churches are so anemic, look at how important Apostles and Prophets were and today most of the leaders of our churches say that those offices have ceased.

 

[farouk]

Dr. Scolfield, and dispensation has, in my opinion, cast some problems in interpreting Scripture like Eph. 4:11...... I believe that the five fold ministry in our churches is vital, and serious edification lacks as the result of removing two important leaders for the "building up the body of Christ".

The text says: "And He gave the Apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12. to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13. until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". Verses 14 thru 16 explains why we need these men. To my knowledge, the Church of Jesus Christ has never attained to verse 13. It's no wonder our churches are so anemic, look at how important Apostles and Prophets were and today most of the leaders of our churches say that those offices have ceased.

Don't we already have the apostolic faith 'once delivered to the saints' (Jude)?

 

[Deborah13]

Dr. Scolfield, and dispensation has, in my opinion, cast some problems in interpreting Scripture like Eph. 4:11...... I believe that the five fold ministry in our churches is vital, and serious edification lacks as the result of removing two important leaders for the "building up the body of Christ".

I don't understand how dispensational ism has anything to do with the lack of the belief in Apostles and Prophets for today. Please explain.

 

[Brother Mike]

It's no wonder our churches are so anemic, look at how important Apostles and Prophets were and today most of the leaders of our churches say that those offices have ceased.

I think I would liked identified "Most Leaders"

A Pastor should be in charge of their own Church. If a Pastor "leader" says all the Apostles and prophets have gotten lost (Ceased) then who cares? So His Church don't get any.

I don't understand the point here.

I will tell you want the Scripture does not say................

And All churches need at Least........

1) Apostle

1) Pastor

1) Evangelist

1) Teacher

and 1) Pastor.

Or else they never attain the unity of faith and knowledge of Christ Jesus.

It's no wonder our churches are so anemic,

So they were designed for the Work of Ministry, Not just stuffed in a Church somewhere. Church is the last step of Ministry......

Let me say that again.................

CHURCH IS THE LAST STEP!!!!

So a Church needs a Pastor, and Teacher being the last can have someone that also Teaches.

A Pastor's anointing is not to just visit everyone, in fact the body should be doing that, not the Pastor. His Job is to get direction for the Church, handled the finances of the Church, and set the standard and teaching of the Church.

A Teacher should come under all standards and things set by the Pastor.

A Prophet normally does not stay in one place but is a edification ministry. Prophets also have revelation and Operate as teachers.

A Evangelist normally does not stay in one place. They have a gift to draw people into Christ who later find Churches run by Pastors.

An Apostle gets the nice task of being sent into the darkest of places to start works. They normally are gifted to operate in all the other ministry callings at different times as the work is started.

This is what the original 12 Apostle's did and had to be acting Pastors, Teachers, Prophets and Evangelist.

I want to be an Apostle called to the beaches of Hawaii to go into those dark (and sunny and warm) places to draw many perched in my yacht. Sort of like Jesus when He preached in the boat.

Now who does God give that calling to?? I signed up first if the position comes open.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

I don't understand how dispensational ism has anything to do with the lack of the belief in Apostles and Prophets for today. Please explain.

According to Baptist theology, (most Baptist churches) with the death of all the Apostles, prophets and apostles of the early church was not needed along with certain gifts like tongue speaking etc. According to the dispensationalist, they have ceased.

 

[farouk]

I don't understand how dispensational ism has anything to do with the lack of the belief in Apostles and Prophets for today. Please explain.

According to Baptist theology, (most Baptist churches) with the death of all the Apostles, prophets and apostles of the early church was not needed along with certain gifts like tongue speaking etc. According to the dispensationalist, they have ceased.

This does beg the question: if the revelation of God in the Bible is now complete, why would there be any more need for more revelation and the continuing office of apostles (as opposed to a complete, authoritative record of Apostolic doctrine, which is found in God's Word, the Bible)?

 

[Brother Mike]

This does beg the question: if the revelation of God in the Bible is now complete, why would there be any more need for more revelation and the continuing office of apostles (as opposed to a complete, authoritative record of Apostolic doctrine, which is found in God's Word, the Bible)?

I just gave what each office is for.

The scripture says for the perfecting of the saints, it does not say for new scriptures to be added.

why would there be any more need for more revelation

So you know all there is to know about the Word of God? This was what Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, Evangelist and Pastors do, they expound on God's Word.

What Baptist really mean is that the Miracles are gone with the Office of the Apostle and Prophet. If there are still Apostle's then we have to have faith for something and we don't want to have to do that.


Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't understand how dispensational ism has anything to do with the lack of the belief in Apostles and Prophets for today. Please explain.

According to Baptist theology, (most Baptist churches) with the death of all the Apostles, prophets and apostles of the early church was not needed along with certain gifts like tongue speaking etc. According to the dispensationalist, they have ceased.

I don't want to be disagreeable just to clarify though, I know at least two dispys on this board who believe all the gifts are for today. And there are several well known self proclaimed prophets who are dispys, as well.
Baptist in general don't believe the gifts are for today but I don't think that has to do with their end times beliefs or dispensations. Some are dispys, some are covenant, etc.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Maybe you are referring to not believing for them in the church age?

 

[Chopper]

This does beg the question: if the revelation of God in the Bible is now complete, why would there be any more need for more revelation and the continuing office of apostles (as opposed to a complete, authoritative record of Apostolic doctrine, which is found in God's Word, the Bible)?

Interesting question, the modern day Apostle would not, obviously, record holy writ as the canon is closed. But you have raised a question in my mind as to what else the Apostles did that no longer would be assigned to a modern day Apostle....Thank you.

 

[Deborah13]

This does beg the question: if the revelation of God in the Bible is now complete, why would there be any more need for more revelation and the continuing office of apostles (as opposed to a complete, authoritative record of Apostolic doctrine, which is found in God's Word, the Bible)?

Interesting question, the modern day Apostle would not, obviously, record holy writ as the canon is closed. But you have raised a question in my mind as to what else the Apostles did that no longer would be assigned to a modern day Apostle....Thank you.

I think that the Apostles were the only ones that worked in signs and wonders. I'm not talking about the HS gifts, including raising the dead which is healing.
But things like snakes, poison, living through boiling oil, and I imagine many things we don't know about. If a skilled magician was wanting to know how to do what they did? Hmm....
I could be all wrong about this, I haven't studied it out.

 

[Chopper]

A Prophet normally does not stay in one place but is a edification ministry. Prophets also have revelation and Operate as teachers.

Thank you Mike, you have made it very clear about the inner workings of what the modern church should be. My comment about the Apostle, Prophet and Evangelist is, they need to be localized in the church that they are called too. The only moving around would be confined to that local church's functions. The picture that I've painted here would apply to any church in various places geographically.

Evangelist: Starts in the city of the local church. He witnesses one on one, holds home Bible studies, perhaps open air evangelism. His primary goal is to populate the local church as the Holy Spirit opens doors.

Apostle: Along with "Teacher" disciples new converts. As the Church grows approaching capacity, instead of a new building program, the Apostle envisions a sister church, probably in a neighboring Town. Under his leadership, The Holy Spirit would inspire him to plant more sister churches following the pattern of Acts 1:8

Prophet: Instead of these, sugar sweet, Pentecostal prophesies A real prophet would operate something like the messages to the seven churches in Revelation. A modern day Prophet would not pull any punches, as they say, and that would not go over very well in the churches of today. They would "vote him out" at the first bad report! The Prophet would be responsible to operate in the mother church as well as moving about in the sister churches.

You covered the offices of Pastor, Teacher and I agree.....This is just my thinking. I would join a church like this, I think its where the rubber meets the road!

 

[Brother Mike]

hank you Mike, you have made it very clear about the inner workings of what the modern church should be.

Blessings Brother!!!

First, after a couple years in the Word........(I wish) I have learned that what others do or believe does not effect those that know and are serving God, doing what they are called to do.

Jessee Duplantis was Called by God to be an Evangelist. Many that come to see him because he is funny give their life to the Lord and hook up with Churches in their local Area. Jerry Savelle travels all over to Motor cycle functions and does a lot Evangelism. We have gotten several at our church who first heard about Jesus on a Motor cycle.

From street preachers (That are called to be Evangelists) and the anointing is there just draw people to Jesus in a powerful way.

While those (Baptist) Churches do not believe in Apostles, they have others working that still are in that office. They call them missionaries. What Baptist are so against are the Healing and Miracles. Apostle to them means Miracles. These missionary's they send risk their lives to start works in some of the most awful places. They are missing half the office but the Work gets started and God does the best he can with what people will give him to Work with.

That is slowly changing in Baptist Churches. I know a few Baptist Pastors that got filled with the Holy Spirit and are at least speaking in tongues. We only hear from the Loud and Ignorant Baptist that just blog and say some of the must stupid things. There are Good Baptist doing good things. One down the road from me found in James that if you anoint someone with Oil and pray for them they get healed.

When He found this in the Word after just fed up with people getting sick and those by thy wills prayers not working, He started getting results by just obeying what God said to do. Because of this his Church has Grown just crazy from watching it over the last few years. He is understanding to do what the Word says to do.

So it's not all what it appears, there will always be dumb people in the body of Christ, not much to do but love them and smile. Remember, we only hear the loud ignorant ones anyway.

Office of the Prophet:

Well............. I am not going to go into detail, the Prophet Office is a very strange office. It's not what you think though or like the OT prophets. They really have no place to correct a Pastor unless a place has been given.

Before the fall of Jim Baker (PTL) club The Lord sent a couple real Prophets (not amateur or someone that just had a "Word") They warned Jim and Jim did not take heed and it cost him everything.

His story is sad, but also awesome because God had lots of mercy on him, even healing his cancer he got in Prison.

Morningside Church
PO Box 7330
Branson, MO 65615
417-779-9000

I know some folks that work for Jim and He is just down the street from me. He is a completely different person now. He lost what He had before, the effects of disobedience to God, but if you go into his studio he is not doing that bad either.

You covered the offices of Pastor, Teacher and I agree.....This is just my thinking. I would join a church like this, I think its where the rubber meets the road!

Our calling, our job, our friends are at the church or body where God called us to be. Most believers find a job then check out churches and that is just not good enough and shows that God is last on their list.

Your place is Always with a Body of Christ your suppose to be hooked with. The reason I left my hometown with 163.00 left to my name, packed the kids, 1 dog and pregnant wife in a small van and just drove to a place I have never been or even knew where I was going to go. 163.00 was left once we pulled in and found a cheap hotel. I certainly did not want to move to Branson....... HEEE HAAWWW.

The day after we pulled into town was our first Church Night and the Lord asked me to drop that 163.00 in the offering bucket. No money to feed the family, no way to pay for another day at the hotel.

So before you say you want a church where the Rubber meets the Road, you have to ask yourself is you really want God to put you in the exact place your suppose to be. Do you really want to know that place? If God shows you, then you are responsible for knowing it. Have you counted the cost?

Understand that Believers don't hear God like they should because God would be unable to tell them anything that just freak if asked. If He tells them, then they have to be responsible for it. Most believers never see just all the Awesome things God has for them. Most!!!

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

Our calling, our job, our friends are at the church or body where God called us to be.

Good post Brother....I'm very glad to hear about Jim Baker. Carry on.

 

[reba]

By example of the Scripture we know a prophet of God never spoke God's words in error.

 

[Brother Mike]

By example of the Scripture we know a prophet of God never spoke God's words in error.

I can give you two places where a Prophet of God spoke in error, and one was not even corrected by God. Both Considered prophets of God.

However........ That is not exactly what it said that they "NEVER" spoke in Error. To believe that is to believe that......

1) Man hears God perfectly and always gets it right.
2) Man never makes a mistake or adds what they think they want to hear.

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

You get in Trouble when your "Thus Saith The Lord." Is not a "Thus Saith the Lord."

This does not mean your not a Prophet, or even have gotten correct Words and direction from God in the Past. It just means you messed up and claimed God said something He did not.

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

So, God still calls Him a Prophet but a Prophet can speak presumptuously and it not be from God.

Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

Deu 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

So we have 2 conditions here.

1) It must come to pass.
2) If it does come to pass, it must not turn anyone away from God.

1Ki 13:18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.

Here we have an older prophet who felt that this younger one was stealing all the glory. So, he lied to the younger man.

You know the story.

Balaam........ is another example of a mighty prophet that just wanted his own way. We know what happened to him.

Good post Brother....I'm very glad to hear about Jim Baker. Carry on.

Jim Baker is doing fine, has a awesome studio and God has blessed him again. He will tell you though that disobedience to God will cost you and it cost him dearly. God is good and merciful. Deceiving people will even cost you your life, and I can give several examples of this. You just don't get away with this.

Mike.

 

[reba]

I dont see a contradiction in our post BroMike..

 

[Chopper]

Man never makes a mistake or adds what they think they want to hear.

Mike, I have been blessed by God to hear His impression on my mind to either warn someone or heal someone. The warnings that I've read in the O.T. have made me very cautious before I speak out about what I'm going to do. When He communicates an instruction, I have a method of asking Him about the message. I ask Him if He wants me to anoint with oil and pray myself? or to have others lay hands on the person. He will give me a very peaceful feeling in my gut to indicate what He wants. That way I know it's from Him and it always works just like He said. Praise the Lord for His kindness!

 

[Brother Mike]

He will give me a very peaceful feeling in my gut to indicate what He wants. That way I know it's from Him and it always works just like He said

Someone told me, "Mike, whatever you do, follow the peace in your heart, that is God."

That advice has kept me safe, saved me lots of trouble that God never intended me to go through and lots of pain and trouble when I did not.

All the Glory be to our Good, Good God!!!!

Keep the Power on Brother.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

Someone told me, "Mike, whatever you do, follow the peace in your heart, that is God."

You are so right Brother Mike, Early on, in the ministry Jesus gave to me, I relied on two passages of Scripture. 1. Colossians 3:15 "let the peace of Christ rule (umpire or referee) in your hearts." 2. Philippians 4:7 "The peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." Blessings my Brother.

 

[gr8grace]

Dr. Scolfield, and dispensation has, in my opinion, cast some problems in interpreting Scripture like Eph. 4:11...... I believe that the five fold ministry in our churches is vital, and serious edification lacks as the result of removing two important leaders for the "building up the body of Christ".

The text says: "And He gave the Apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12. to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13. until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". Verses 14 thru 16 explains why we need these men. To my knowledge, the Church of Jesus Christ has never attained to verse 13. It's no wonder our churches are so anemic, look at how important Apostles and Prophets were and today most of the leaders of our churches say that those offices have ceased.

Just wanted to add that Dr. Scofield was a very,very late teacher of Dispensations.

Just a few examples of dispensational teachers before Scofield:

1. John Nelson Darby (1800-1882)....possibly the first to give systematic form to the ages and dispensations

2. Irenaeus (AD 120-202)

3. Justin Martyr (AD 100-165)

Tertullian, Methodius, and to a minor degree Victorinus of Petau also taught dispensations.

Bible instructor Larry V. Crutchfield, of Baumholder, West Germany,Ages and Dispensations Of The Ante-Nicene Fathers.