Bible Study Ephesians 4:11 - 16 Scripture says we need all five.

[Sandy Zalecki]

Dr. Scolfield, and dispensation has, in my opinion, cast some problems in interpreting Scripture like Eph. 4:11...... I believe that the five fold ministry in our churches is vital, and serious edification lacks as the result of removing two important leaders for the "building up the body of Christ".

The text says: "And He gave the Apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12. to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13. until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". Verses 14 thru 16 explains why we need these men. To my knowledge, the Church of Jesus Christ has never attained to verse 13. It's no wonder our churches are so anemic, look at how important Apostles and Prophets were and today most of the leaders of our churches say that those offices have ceased.

Amen, I am in total agreement with you. Apostles and prophets are so needed today and yet so ignored because of the belief that their offices ceased after the New Testament was canonized. I don't know how they came to that conclusion. The church is totally anemic and those offices need to come back.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

Interesting question, the modern day Apostle would not, obviously, record holy writ as the canon is closed. But you have raised a question in my mind as to what else the Apostles did that no longer would be assigned to a modern day Apostle....Thank you.

Is God the same yesterday, today, and forever? What would be the difference between the Apostles of today and the Apostles of the Bible? Now that we have a canonized New Testament the only difference would be that we are not to add to scripture only clarify inspire according to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

 

[farouk]

As I see it, the role of the Apostles was particularly relevant while the canon of Scripture was not yet complete. We do have the authoritative Apostolic faith 'once delivered to the saints' (Jude) laid out in Scripture completely. We also have local church elders and preachers who are 'fellow helpers to the truth'. I would see this as distinct from Apostleship, though.

Blessings.

 

[Chopper]

Is God the same yesterday, today, and forever? What would be the difference between the Apostles of today and the Apostles of the Bible? Now that we have a canonized New Testament the only difference would be that we are not to add to scripture only clarify inspire according to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Unfortunately some of the answers are locked up in modern day pastors. If the pastor's of today would recognize an Apostle, they would be welcome in their church, same with prophets. Since they are so protective of their flock, they shut them out. In my mind, an Apostle would start a church in a remote area. He would then, after raising up a man to take over the leadership of said church, would move on and start another church and so on. Lets say he started seven churches in an area that he could travel around and revisit those churches, that would be an Apostle in these days. You are right in saying that God does not change, man changes from what they were in the first centure to now.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

Unfortunately some of the answers are locked up in modern day pastors. If the pastor's of today would recognize an Apostle, they would be welcome in their church, same with prophets. Since they are so protective of their flock, they shut them out. In my mind, an Apostle would start a church in a remote area. He would then, after raising up a man to take over the leadership of said church, would move on and start another church and so on. Lets say he started seven churches in an area that he could travel around and revisit those churches, that would be an Apostle in these days. You are right in saying that God does not change, man changes from what they were in the first centure to now.

You are so right about that. You are stating exactly what Paul did in the New Testament church. He started a church and then went to another town and started another church. That is how it is supposed to be done.

 

[Chopper]

You are so right about that. You are stating exactly what Paul did in the New Testament church. He started a church and then went to another town and started another church. That is how it is supposed to be done.

Exactly Sandy. Remember in 3 John v.9 "but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority". He is like so many pastors of today. Oh Sandy, the Church of Jesus Christ would be so much more powerful by the presence and working of the Holy Spirit. I'm afraid that He is quenched by the refusal of modern day Apostles and prophets that He can only accomplish a little in our churches. Sometimes pastors are afraid of the Holy Spirit because when people get filled with the Spirit they sometimes do some strange things.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

In verse 13, I believe Paul is telling us of the unity of Jews and Gentiles to the maturity of us all to receive the grace that comes from the fullness of Christ.
We will not be perfect until we get to heaven.
It is a pastors' job to bring unity to all believers.
1 Peter 1:3-10 tells us we have everything we need to fulfill this verse.
2 Timothy 3:16 says the Bible has everything we need to be the complete man.
I don't see a need for Apostles to give us something we already have.
I don't see missionaries as being Apostles.
I see Apostles as a direct calling from Christ.
We have overseers and elders.
We have it all.
What we do with it depends on our relationship with Christ.

 

[Chopper]

In verse 13, I believe Paul is telling us of the unity of Jews and Gentiles to the maturity of us all to receive the grace that comes from the fullness of Christ.
We will not be perfect until we get to heaven.
It is a pastors' job to bring unity to all believers.
1 Peter 1:3-10 tells us we have everything we need to fulfill this verse.
2 Timothy 3:16 says the Bible has everything we need to be the complete man.
I don't see a need for Apostles to give us something we already have.
I don't see missionaries as being Apostles.
I see Apostles as a direct calling from Christ.
We have overseers and elders.
We have it all.
What we do with it depends on our relationship with Christ.

Hello my learned Brother, part of me agree's with you whole heartedly, and another part of me has a question, what if we are wrong, what if it is God's will to have these two positions, what are we missing? I hope you are right.

Have a wonderful day my friend.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi Chopper, Sola Scriptura says the Bible is complete.
No need for prophecies of the future.

Now the Apostles were called directly by Jesus.
Two exceptions, the Apostles chose Matthias by lot and Paul called Barnabas an Apostle with him.
Barnabas and Paul went in separate directions to witness to the Gentiles.
Paul had Timothy and Titus, naming them leaders in the church, though he never gave them the title of Apostle.

If one were to be an Apostle today, I believe they need a calling directly from Jesus as Paul did.
I just don't see it being any other way.

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper, Sola Scriptura says the Bible is complete.
No need for prophecies of the future.

Now the Apostles were called directly by Jesus.
Two exceptions, the Apostles chose Matthias by lot and Paul called Barnabas an Apostle with him.
Barnabas and Paul went in separate directions to witness to the Gentiles.
Paul had Timothy and Titus, naming them leaders in the church, though he never gave them the title of Apostle.

If one were to be an Apostle today, I believe they need a calling directly from Jesus as Paul did.
I just don't see it being any other way.

That's a very good point Brother, I'm in agreement with you. I see Prophets in the O.T. being selected by the Lord, not human selection, and the same is for Apostles in the N.T. So you are right on! Thank you for your insight and instruction, I receive it to myself.