Ephesians and Pre-Destination

[stranger]

Jeremiah 1:5 NASB
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

stranger summary statement:

Before in the above text refers to an unspecified period before Jeremiah was formed in the womb. Any and all activity of the earliest stage of Jeremiah's life in the womb, as conceived or prior to conception CAN be understand to be part of Jeremiah's formation (in the womb). Therefore, 'before' posits God knowing Jeremiah earlier in time than what happened in the womb ie before Jeremiah's existence in any shape or form.

Unred's summary statement

add your comment please[/quote]

Before the physical body of Jeremiah was formed in his mother’s “belly,*†the DNA substance in his mother and father that came together in their reproductive union was available to be seen only by God’s eyes and God knew Jeremiah before these elements of his soul and spirit began to develop in his mother‘s womb.**

*womb, in some versions

**This summary subject to revision and re revision, if I recall our last discussion.

p.s. I’m almost out of stars. I still have a few gold ones left, for those who don’t beat this thread into the ground. :wink:

Unred,
Yes, by all means revise - my purpose is to be as clear as possible. Take it easy.

 

[unred typo]

quote by stranger:
Unred,
Yes, by all means revise - my purpose is to be as clear as possible. Take it easy.

I’m feeling bad that we have taken Drew’s thread and tangled it all up in the whole ‘how and when does God know the future’ that we had going on in another thread a while back. Drew’s OP was more about specifically the ‘who’ in Ephesians. We have made it about ‘when the prophets were predestined’ instead. I guess at least we are discussing a prophet so it’s not going too far astray. Do you agree with Drew that Ephesians is written about prophets and apostles being the few who are predestined and not all the people who eventually come to faith? Here is what Drew wrote:

quote by Drew:
Here is Ephesians 2:19-20

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

This text shows that Paul certainly does see the set of “apostles and prophets†as a distinct group of persons and at least proves that we cannot simply assume that in the first 3 chapters of the book, Paul is simply making declarations about what is true for all people. We are being made aware that Paul sees the apostles as a distinct group.

And in Ephesians 3:4-5, Paul writes:

By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit

Again, we have Paul identifying a well-demarcated subset of all human persons. Of course, this and the 2:19-20 proves nothing for the present over and above showing that Paul has in mind this very specific set of persons as a distinct group. In later posts, the case will be made that the pre-destination spoken of in 1:4-5 and 11 is indeed specific to this small group.

To summarize what I claim this first post has done: It has been shown to be at least plausible that the “us†who are predestined (as per chapter 1) are in fact the set of “prophts and apostles†later clearly identified as a distinct group (in chapters 2 and 3).

 

[unred typo]

quote by Drew:
So I guess I am sympathetic to what I think you are saying. And, to the extent that such an argument works, perhaps what I intend to say in this thread may not even be necessary as a part of an overall scriptural argument against the predestination of individuals to salvation. Nevertheless, I intend to finish the argument just to see what happens.…

OK, I guess by now you have an idea as to the extent that such an argument works. :-? It’s a bit like battling the Hydra. Since we both know that the predestination of individuals to salvation is totally unscriptural, I am interested to see how you have arrived at this conclusion and how this compares with my own views. It may not be necessary to one who believes there is no ever existing past-to-future time continuum, but for those who take sci-fi to heart, it may be essential to prevent one from being sucked helplessly into the Calvinism vortex. Please don't let our little sidetrack prevent you from posting your treatise.

 

[Drew]

My apologies to unred, stranger, etc.: I have not read all of what you have written. This is the third in a series of posts (the first 2 are on page 1 of this thread) which constitute an argument that Ephesians 1 does not support the doctrine of pre-destination generally. If someone is interested in the overall flow of this argument, please make sure you read them all and in the order they are presented:

POST 3

In this post, I intend to provide a single item of evidence to suggest that the set of “prophets and apostles†identified in Ephesians chapters 2 and 3 do, in fact, constitute the “us†that is predestined as per Ehpesian 1:4-5, 11. In later posts, other items of evidence that support this same claim will be provided, so please do not assume the content of this present post is the total argument.

In Ephesians 3:2-3 we have:

Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.

I submit that that the material that Paul has already about this “mystery†is precisely the material in Eph 1:3-14, which contains the predestination "proof-texts" so often used to support the belief that people in general are predestined to salvation or not. Note that in Eph 1:9, he writes:

And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ.

We now have reasonable grounds to conclude that the “mystery†that Paul will now go on and amplify in chapter 3 is the self-same mystery that is mentioned in 1:9. But we can sharpen this up and give more solid evidence that there is in fact one and the same mystery being described. What does Paul claim this mystery to be in chapters 3 and 1 respectively (addressed in this order to be consistent with the order of treatment earlier in this post)?

Paul continues in Eph 3:4-6 to qualify this "mystery" by writing:

“In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesusâ€Â

And now we turn to 1:9-10 to see what Paul claims the mystery to be all about:

And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillmentâ€â€to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

Note the seeming equivalence of the bolded sections of these passages. I think it is clear that a single mystery is referred to in chapters 1 and 3.

I suspect that you may see where I am going - the mystery in chapter 1 is the same mystery as in chapter 3 and the fact that chapter 3 clearly identifies who that mystery has been revealed to legitimizes a claim that it is this same set of persons who are being described as "predestined" in chapter 1.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Drew:
I suspect that you may see where I am going - the mystery in chapter 1 is the same mystery as in chapter 3 and the fact that chapter 3 clearly identifies who that mystery has been revealed to legitimizes a claim that it is this same set of persons who are being described as "predestined" in chapter 1.

I can see it is the same mystery from chapter 1 through 3 and that this mystery is the extending of the offer of salvation to all the peoples ‘in the world,’ and to accept all those ‘in Christ’ and not just those ‘in the chosen people.’ The plan to make salvation available to all his created beings through the death of his son was conceived in the beginning of creation and the decision to communicate this mystery via prophets and apostles, was also made at this time. Sorry…I think I’m getting ahead of your treatise here. I don’t want to bog you down with my beliefs but I’m just trying to correlate it in my mind. I feel you have established that it is the same mystery and the same set of persons if I understand you correctly.

 

[stranger]

My apologies to unred, stranger, etc.: I have not read all of what you have written. This is the third in a series of posts (the first 2 are on page 1 of this thread) which constitute an argument that Ephesians 1 does not support the doctrine of pre-destination generally. If someone is interested in the overall flow of this argument, please make sure you read them all and in the order they are presented:

POST 3

In this post, I intend to provide a single item of evidence to suggest that the set of “prophets and apostles†identified in Ephesians chapters 2 and 3 do, in fact, constitute the “us†that is predestined as per Ehpesian 1:4-5, 11. In later posts, other items of evidence that support this same claim will be provided, so please do not assume the content of this present post is the total argument.

In Ephesians 3:2-3 we have:

Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.

I submit that that the material that Paul has already about this “mystery†is precisely the material in Eph 1:3-14, which contains the predestination "proof-texts" so often used to support the belief that people in general are predestined to salvation or not. Note that in Eph 1:9, he writes:

And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ.

We now have reasonable grounds to conclude that the “mystery†that Paul will now go on and amplify in chapter 3 is the self-same mystery that is mentioned in 1:9. But we can sharpen this up and give more solid evidence that there is in fact one and the same mystery being described. What does Paul claim this mystery to be in chapters 3 and 1 respectively (addressed in this order to be consistent with the order of treatment earlier in this post)?

Paul continues in Eph 3:4-6 to qualify this "mystery" by writing:

“In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesusâ€Â

And now we turn to 1:9-10 to see what Paul claims the mystery to be all about:

And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillmentâ€â€to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

Note the seeming equivalence of the bolded sections of these passages. I think it is clear that a single mystery is referred to in chapters 1 and 3.

I suspect that you may see where I am going - the mystery in chapter 1 is the same mystery as in chapter 3 and the fact that chapter 3 clearly identifies who that mystery has been revealed to legitimizes a claim that it is this same set of persons who are being described as "predestined" in chapter 1.

Hi Drew,

The identification of 'us' in Paul's writing and the use of the word 'mystery' should be tested more widely than in the predestination texts. For instance, in Ephesians chapter 6 we read:

18With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints, 19and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. 21But that you also may know about my circumstances, how I am doing, Tychicus, the beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, will make everything known to you. 22I have sent him to you for this very purpose, so that you may know about us, and that he may comfort your hearts. . .

So a very natural identification of who 'us' is are those who are travelling with Paul. Often a list is found towards the end of his letters. So when Paul used 'us' he may very well have had in mind his described himself as being in chains.

When Paul speaks about the revealing of the 'mystery of the gospel' it is quite true that this was revealed to the prophets and the apostles. If one sees 'predestination' as a benefit of the gospel, in the same way the 'forgiveness is a benefit, or the inheritence of the sainst and so on then it would be hard to confine the benefit of predestination to only 'apostles and prophets'. This can be seen from the opening verses of Ephesians chapter 1 which provides a more immediate starting point for the present discussion.

To illustrate the last point the following questions can be asked:

v2 to whom is grace and peace from God directed?
v3 who is blessed by every spiritual blessing?
v4 who is holy and blameless before Him in love?
v5 who is adopted as sons through Jesus Christ?
v6 on whom has God freely bestowed (blessings)
v7 Who has redemption through His blood?
who has forgiveness of (our) trespasses?
v8 on whom has all this been lavished?
v9 to whom has the mystery been made known?

If all the answers are counted as blessings - they can be argued as applying to all faithful saints. As agreed, to whom has the mystery been made know? In the first instance the revelation came to the apostles and prophets, but it was intended for all faithful saints (or true church).

We now have reasonable grounds to conclude that the “mystery†that Paul will now go on and amplify in chapter 3 is the self-same mystery that is mentioned in 1:9

Paul speaks of the mystery of the Gospel, and other related mysteries throughout his writings. He is not isolating 'predestination' from the other benefits of the gospel - Drew look at the targets of Paul's listed blessing and benefits in verses 1-9, I have asked questions for each verse to help identify who Paul is talking about. In Romans 8 the list containing 'predestined' also confers with the thought that all blessings are intended for all faithful saints, whilst recognising that not all are prophets or apostles.

 

[stranger]

My apologies to unred, stranger, etc.: I have not read all of what you have written. This is the third in a series of posts (the first 2 are on page 1 of this thread) which constitute an argument that Ephesians 1 does not support the doctrine of pre-destination generally. If someone is interested in the overall flow of this argument, please make sure you read them all and in the order they are presented:

POST 3

In this post, I intend to provide a single item of evidence to suggest that the set of “prophets and apostles†identified in Ephesians chapters 2 and 3 do, in fact, constitute the “us†that is predestined as per Ehpesian 1:4-5, 11. In later posts, other items of evidence that support this same claim will be provided, so please do not assume the content of this present post is the total argument.

In Ephesians 3:2-3 we have:

Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.

I submit that that the material that Paul has already about this “mystery†is precisely the material in Eph 1:3-14, which contains the predestination "proof-texts" so often used to support the belief that people in general are predestined to salvation or not. Note that in Eph 1:9, he writes:

And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ.

We now have reasonable grounds to conclude that the “mystery†that Paul will now go on and amplify in chapter 3 is the self-same mystery that is mentioned in 1:9. But we can sharpen this up and give more solid evidence that there is in fact one and the same mystery being described. What does Paul claim this mystery to be in chapters 3 and 1 respectively (addressed in this order to be consistent with the order of treatment earlier in this post)?

Paul continues in Eph 3:4-6 to qualify this "mystery" by writing:

“In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesusâ€Â

And now we turn to 1:9-10 to see what Paul claims the mystery to be all about:

And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillmentâ€â€to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

Note the seeming equivalence of the bolded sections of these passages. I think it is clear that a single mystery is referred to in chapters 1 and 3.

I suspect that you may see where I am going - the mystery in chapter 1 is the same mystery as in chapter 3 and the fact that chapter 3 clearly identifies who that mystery has been revealed to legitimizes a claim that it is this same set of persons who are being described as "predestined" in chapter 1.

 

[stranger]

To Drew and Unred,

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

If we consider confered benefits of the Gospel and think about the mystery of the Gospel then I would say 'predestination' is one of the most mysterious parts of the Gospel. The list revealed to Paul and to all faithful saints stated simply is:

foreknew
predestined
called
justified
glorified

It makes more sense to keep this list together because there is an interrelatedness to each aspect of the Gospel. For instance, no one can be glorified if they were not also justified. No one can be jusitified if they were not also called and so on. While this order of salvation serves the purpose Paul intended - I have seen other attempts to come up with a more detailed list. It could be argued that this is adding to the Gospel, while truncating the list is taking away from the Gospel. Both approaches are condemned.

So I accept predestination as one of the profoundest mysteries of the Gospel and it is not difficult to accept at face value. In general the saints trust God to get His mysteries right in confering the benefits of the Gospel. Attempts to confine the lateral damage of the doctrine of predestination, by those who so view the doctrine and are satisfied that they know the mystery, would in my opinion, lead to greater difficulties in the assurance of salvation - than if the doctrine were never mentioned by Paul in the first place.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Stranger:
To Drew and Unred,

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

If we consider confered benefits of the Gospel and think about the mystery of the Gospel then I would say 'predestination' is one of the most mysterious parts of the Gospel. The list revealed to Paul and to all faithful saints stated simply is:

foreknew
predestined
called
justified
glorified

It makes more sense to keep this list together because there is an interrelatedness to each aspect of the Gospel. For instance, no one can be glorified if they were not also justified. No one can be jusitified if they were not also called and so on. While this order of salvation serves the purpose Paul intended - I have seen other attempts to come up with a more detailed list. It could be argued that this is adding to the Gospel, while truncating the list is taking away from the Gospel. Both approaches are condemned.

I’m not ignoring or defiling your list. It has as much significance to me as it does to you, but my way is admittedly not so mysterious. I hope that doesn’t take all the fun out of it for you. Let me show you if you can stand another tedious explanation of the obvious:

Foreknew….. the question is who did he know and when did he know them. God knew the Christians Paul is writing to from the beginning of His son’s earthly ministry. I believe Drew has some more to write on that. They were believers. God foreknew them to be ready to follow Christ, when they were sure of the reward promised was no hoax. When Jesus rose from the dead, there was no doubt that living according to his ways would please God and he would raise you to immortality, just as Jesus preached. Jesus became the first fruits of them that slept. God foreknew these people would come to faith when they saw the truth displayed in front of their eyes, because they received the message taught by Christ.

Predestined…. Is where I agree with you. Those who believe in the message that Christ taught have many things that God has promised and prepared for them from the foundation of the world. We need to focus on these things and not grow weary in well doing, because we will receive them if we faint not as it says in Galatians 6:9. These things are for those who remain ‘in Christ’. If we whimp out and give up, we may even lose the reward of eternal life that is awarded to those who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality as it says in Romans 2:7.


Called… we are called to do what? Called to tell others and exhort them to follow Christ as well. Some even have been called to special assignments that God has chosen them for. 1 Corinthians 12:29 asks; “Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?†Jesus told them many times that many are called but few are chosen.

Justified… we are justified by faith in the blood of Christ. If you want to see how that differs from being justified by the works of the law, you should study James. James 2:24
says you will see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Glorified… we will be glorified when we suffer with Christ. Paul gloried in tribulation, knowing the outcome was glorious. The glory you will receive for being a Christian in America won’t compare with the glory that those who were ‘sawed asunder’ and fed to lions will be honored with. In fact, we will probably want to crawl under a rock when the glory awards are being given out.

quote by Stranger:
So I accept predestination as one of the profoundest mysteries of the Gospel and it is not difficult to accept at face value. In general the saints trust God to get His mysteries right in confering the benefits of the Gospel. Attempts to confine the lateral damage of the doctrine of predestination, by those who so view the doctrine and are satisfied that they know the mystery, would in my opinion, lead to greater difficulties in the assurance of salvation - than if the doctrine were never mentioned by Paul in the first place.

The mystery is how anyone could perceive it in such an impossible way which Paul probably never imagined. At face value here in the wally world of star trek delusion, it may make perfect sense, but in the rea flesh and blood world that Paul lived in, your explanation is profoundly “illogical.â€Â

 

[stranger]

quote by Stranger:
So I accept predestination as one of the profoundest mysteries of the Gospel and it is not difficult to accept at face value. In general the saints trust God to get His mysteries right in confering the benefits of the Gospel. Attempts to confine the lateral damage of the doctrine of predestination, by those who so view the doctrine and are satisfied that they know the mystery, would in my opinion, lead to greater difficulties in the assurance of salvation - than if the doctrine were never mentioned by Paul in the first place.

response by unred:
The mystery is how anyone could perceive it in such an impossible way which Paul probably never imagined. At face value here in the wally world of star trek delusion, it may make perfect sense, but in the real flesh and blood world that Paul lived in, your explanation is profoundly “illogical".

Hi unred,

Romans 8:29,30 are about what God does. These verses are not about what we do - but the rest of scripture contains plenty of things left for believers to do apart from the works of God.

Take care unred.

 

[unred typo]

quote by stranger:
Romans 8:29,30 are about what God does. These verses are not about what we do - but the rest of scripture contains plenty of things left for believers to do apart from the works of God.

Sure they are about what God does. I agree. Look again at what I wrote:

Those who believe in the message that Christ taught have many things that God has promised and prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

The message that Christ taught (i.e. Love one another, Forgive as you have been forgiven, be merciful, judge not, be holy, etc. ) came from God. God tells us how to live right and in a way that will please him. Jesus showed us the way to inherit eternal life. God prepared this way of salvation from the foundation of the world. He was not surprised when Adam sinned. He already had a plan formulated to redeem him from the curse that of death that Adam inflicted on himself and all his descendents.

The plan was to put those who obey into Christ to be born again as children of God. Those who have learned to die to sin would be raised incorruptible. This foreknown, as yet still unknown, group of individual believers was predestined from the very beginning to inherit the promises made from the foundation of the world.

What is confusing is that Paul is writing to a specific group who has believed and chosen to follow Christ. These are already part of those who are known by God but Paul is also writing about all those future unknown people who will come to believe in the gospel for years to come that are included in God’s plan by their obedience to the gospel. Did you read the Yellow Bus, Red bus analogy? It might help you get the idea. We are chosen in Christ, and only because we are IN CHRIST. I believe that everywhere that the Bible uses the concept of foreknowledge it is in relation to ALL THOSE IN CHRIST, and not to specific individuals who haven‘t even been born once, let alone twice.

quote by stranger:
Take care unred.

Please don’t think I am talking down to you as if the ideas you have are so strange to what most people have been taught. They’re not. What you believe is perfectly normal and accepted in the church today. I once believed just as you do. That doesn’t make it right however. I loved Star Trek and time travel movies but it's time to focus on reality. When I was a child, and way beyond when I was full grown, I thought as a child. It’s time to think as an adult and consider if these things are so or if they are fabrications of the warped culture we live in.

If that was a farewell to this post, you take care as well, stranger. Maybe when you have more time to evaluate what I wrote, you will come to the same conclusions I have.

 

[bleitzel]

Drew and Unred, Greetings!

You may remember (or not) that I pm'd you about a year ago that I had wanted to discuss with you the first chapter of Ephesians. I had found that both of you had views that largely mirrored my own and I wanted to share with you both a remarkable view on Ephesians that might help.

Well, I've been gone from these forums for nearly a year. I've recently read this thread and I'm sorry I was absent! But before we get back into Ephesians, I wanted to recap very quiclky: I don't believe in predestination, or rather that any individual is predestined to Heaven or Hell. I further think that that Romans 9 and more strongly Ephesians 1 are the proof texts in the argument FOR predestination. And with that said, Drew's understanding (so eloquently written in these forums) of Paul's intricate message in Romans is 100% accurate! That his use of OT scriptures doesn't lead us to consider his potter analogy as a metaphor for individual salvation. In fact, Paul's point here in Romans and throughout so many of his letters is exactly the mystery we find in Ephesians.

I contend that Paul's biggest revelation, the most shocking discovery that he wrote about (outside the coming of the Messiah) was this newly gained insight that the Gentiles WERE included in God's plan of redemption. For us to completely understand Paul we have to think like a 1st century Jew. Up until Jesus' time, Jews assumed that they alone had God's promises, the Gentiles were left out, condemned. Paul now saw that as the Jews were God's family by birth, the Gentiles were being included in God's plan by adoption! This was such an amazing new revelation that Paul called it the great mystery and wrote about it over and over and over.

So let's look at Ephesians. Drew, you've deduced that the mystery in CH 3 is the same as in CH 1 and you're spot on. But let's go further. That mystery is precisely that the Gentiles were now being included in the plan of salvation. (Trumpets Sounding) But to the first century Jew this could almost be blasphemy. Paul had to teach this revelation, justify it, re-teach it, re-justify it. There were many, many objections he had to overcome.

He knew that where the Jews had once thought that they were God's chosen people, and that that meant the Gentiles WERE NOT, he had to teac hthem that no, the Gentiles were God's chosen people too! The Jews were given the ancestors and the prophets and the promises, but nowhere did God say that He left the Gentiles out. He just had a different plan for them, namely the Messiah.

So in the beginning of Ephesians, Paul is talking to the Gentile believers when he says that "In Him (Christ) we have redemption through His blood..." This is to underscore the Gentiles' new adoption into the family of God's chosen. ANd the keystone passage is this: Eph 1:11 "In Him we also have obtained an inheritance..." I've searched and searched but I still haven't found any scholars who have correctly seen this verse as I think it so clearly is. Paul is telling us that us Gentiels are ALSO chosen. That's the Ch 1 and 3 mystery, both Jews and Gentiles are chosen. The Jews are predestined AND the Gentiles re predestined. Everyone's predestined. But not to Heaven, no this isn't UR, everyone is predestined to be redemmed by Chirst's blood. If we will only accept His gift, we too may partake in eternal life.

So Drew, you're right in Romans that nowhere is Paul espousing indivdual predestination. And unred, you're right that Calvinism is wrong to say that some are elect because He so wills, and others are not. And here, I think we can show that the mainstay scripture, the proof text of predestination (as understood by Calvinists and Arminians alike) has actually been misunderstood by scholars all the way back to Augustine. SOrry that his is both tso long winded and at the same time not fleshed out enough!

Bob

 

[Drew]

Drew and Unred, Greetings!

Hello back to you.

I don't believe in predestination, or rather that any individual is predestined to Heaven or Hell.

I agree with you, but I having not really addressed this issue so deeply that I am 100 % convinced.

I further think that that Romans 9 and more strongly Ephesians 1 are the proof texts in the argument FOR predestination. And with that said, Drew's understanding (so eloquently written in these forums) of Paul's intricate message in Romans is 100% accurate! That his use of OT scriptures doesn't lead us to consider his potter analogy as a metaphor for individual salvation.

To me, the evidence against Romans 9, and the potter metaphor in particular, being about pre-destination is basically overwhelming - there is really no possibility that the potter metaphor is about the pre-destination of individuals to salvation or to loss. It is about Israel and God's right to cause her to "stumble" in order to bring salvation to the world.

I contend that Paul's biggest revelation, the most shocking discovery that he wrote about (outside the coming of the Messiah) was this newly gained insight that the Gentiles WERE included in God's plan of redemption. For us to completely understand Paul we have to think like a 1st century Jew. Up until Jesus' time, Jews assumed that they alone had God's promises, the Gentiles were left out, condemned. Paul now saw that as the Jews were God's family by birth, the Gentiles were being included in God's plan by adoption! This was such an amazing new revelation that Paul called it the great mystery and wrote about it over and over and over.

I agree completely.

I hope to get back to you re the rest of your post.

 

[bleitzel]

I agree completely.

I hope to get back to you re the rest of your post.

Hi Drew, I'm glad you saw this post as it was an older thread. I have beleived exactly what you believe about the Romans passages, especially the Potter analogy for a few years now. And that correct understanding of Romans coupled with this contra-calvinist/contra-arminian understanding of Ephesians I think is the end of the Predestination debate once and for all. Now we can positively say that no, God does not choose one group to be elect unto eternal life simply out of His grace, and no, God does not choose one group because he foreknew how they would react to His calling either. In fact God does not predestinate one group over another AT ALL! All people are predestinated to be part of God's family, some one way (the Jews) and some another (the Gentiles)!

 

[Pogo]

bleitzel -

Thanks for dredging this thread up from the depths!

It is great to find interpretations that are in harmony with my views!

I came to the same understanding about predestination a couple of years ago from studying John and Romans.

Give me a little time and I'll share my perspective here.

Thanks again,

Pogo

 

[bleitzel]

bleitzel -

Thanks for dredging this thread up from the depths!

It is great to find interpretations that are in harmony with my views!

I came to the same understanding about predestination a couple of years ago from studying John and Romans.

Give me a little time and I'll share my perspective here.

Thanks again,

Pogo

Hi Pogo, greatly looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

 

[bleitzel]

To me, the evidence against Romans 9, and the potter metaphor in particular, being about pre-destination is basically overwhelming - there is really no possibility that the potter metaphor is about the pre-destination of individuals to salvation or to loss. It is about Israel and God's right to cause her to "stumble" in order to bring salvation to the world.

Oh, and I forgot to highlight that yes, Romans 9 is exactly about God's right to do exactly as He pleases in His plan of salvation. Earlier I said in my first, long winded post that Paul had to overcome objections to the teaching of God's mystery revealed and this is one of those prime spots. And what would anyone in Paul's position have to do if he were trying to convince current day scholars that their predecessors for the past several hundred years had all been wrong in their teachings?!?!? Right, he'd have to go back to the original scriptures and show exactly where they went wrong, hence the inference to Jacob and Esau in Romans 9, etc.!

 

[bleitzel]

v2 to whom is grace and peace from God directed?
v3 who is blessed by every spiritual blessing?
v4 who is holy and blameless before Him in love?
v5 who is adopted as sons through Jesus Christ?
v6 on whom has God freely bestowed (blessings)
v7 Who has redemption through His blood?
who has forgiveness of (our) trespasses?
v8 on whom has all this been lavished?
v9 to whom has the mystery been made known?

Hey stranger,
First I would agree that Eph 1 and Rom 8 are indeed similar texts by Paul. So the answers to your questions above would be the same if the answers were asked of Rom 8 as well. But I don't think the answers are what you think they are because the beginning of Eph is not an exclusatory list.

Paul is not saying that those who are blessed in the heanenly realms, those who have spirtual blessings, etc. are unique in these things. It is true, Paul did address this letter to the saints in Ephesus and I can totally understand why you would conlcude then that list applies to them ONLY.
But it doesn't apply to them only. It applies to them ALSO. Look at verse 11, the also means in addition to. To what? To the Jews. Paul writes very strongly in chapters 2 and 3 of EPhesians as well as in Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, and others about this profound mystery of God. That he intedned not just the Jews in his plan of redemption, but the Gentiles also. It is a very simple message, and the misunderstanding of to whom the blessings of Eph 1:3-8 belong is just as simple.

So the answers to your questions above would be
v2-v9 the Gentiles also, along with the Jews.

 

[stranger]

v2 to whom is grace and peace from God directed?
v3 who is blessed by every spiritual blessing?
v4 who is holy and blameless before Him in love?
v5 who is adopted as sons through Jesus Christ?
v6 on whom has God freely bestowed (blessings)
v7 Who has redemption through His blood?
who has forgiveness of (our) trespasses?
v8 on whom has all this been lavished?
v9 to whom has the mystery been made known?

Hey stranger,
First I would agree that Eph 1 and Rom 8 are indeed similar texts by Paul. So the answers to your questions above would be the same if the answers were asked of Rom 8 as well. But I don't think the answers are what you think they are because the beginning of Eph is not an exclusatory list.

Paul is not saying that those who are blessed in the heanenly realms, those who have spirtual blessings, etc. are unique in these things. It is true, Paul did address this letter to the saints in Ephesus and I can totally understand why you would conlcude then that list applies to them ONLY.
But it doesn't apply to them only. It applies to them ALSO. Look at verse 11, the also means in addition to. To what? To the Jews. Paul writes very strongly in chapters 2 and 3 of EPhesians as well as in Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, and others about this profound mystery of God. That he intedned not just the Jews in his plan of redemption, but the Gentiles also. It is a very simple message, and the misunderstanding of to whom the blessings of Eph 1:3-8 belong is just as simple.

So the answers to your questions above would be
v2-v9 the Gentiles also, along with the Jews.

Hi bleitzel,

Thanks for your comments, I would put it this way:

'to the Jew first and also to the Greek'.

 

[bleitzel]

Hi bleitzel,

Thanks for your comments, I would put it this way:

'to the Jew first and also to the Greek'.

Yes! Perfect! I'm glad you get it! It's not that Paul was saying to the faithful saints, no, he was saying to Jews and also Gentiles.

God Bless,