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episcopalians and female pastors

Where in scripture are women shown to be pastors of the local Church, and who was the very first woman pastor ordained according to the New Testament guidelines?
does it matter? if so why? remember the times back then, woman had no social rights anyway, even the ceasars wives had to sit way up between the beggars and 'cheap' seats during the colloseum games. back then.... woman were nothing...so its pretty understandable that are no woman pastors mentioned / or were no woman pastors.
 
let me just state again that im not debating the role of woman in regards with the family role, or wife role, but only as the pastor role. :)

some more info I found:

In the Book of Acts, chapter 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla's name is mentioned first, likely indicating that she was more "prominent" in ministry than her husband. However, Priscilla is nowhere described as participating in a ministry activity that is in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11-14. Priscilla and Aquila brought Apollos into their home and they both discipled him, explaining the Word of God to him more accurately (Acts 18:26).

God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a "helper" for Adam. The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This leads some to believe that women should not teach because they are more easily deceived. That concept is debatable...but if women are more easily deceived, why should they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? That is not what the text says : As a result, God has given men the primary teaching authority in the church.

and that last sentence is my point. PRIMARY... that doesnt mean there cant be a secondary role for a woman as a pastor. yes God created MEN with roles and WOMAN with certain roles to play in his church. but we must be VERY CAREFULL in dismissing some from certain roles. that displays the misinterpretation of scripture.
 
Question: "Women pastors / preachers? What does the Bible say about women in ministry?"

Answer: There is perhaps not a more debated issue in the church today than the issue of women serving as pastors / preachers in ministry. As a result, it is very important to not view this issue as men versus women. There are women who believe that women should not serve as pastors and that the Bible places restrictions on the ministry of women - and there are men who believe that women can serve as preachers and that there are no restrictions on women in ministry. This is not an issue of chauvinism or discrimination. It is an issue of Biblical interpretation.

1 Timothy 2:11-12 proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.†In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created (1 Timothy 2:13) and the way in which sin entered the world (2 Timothy 2:14). God, through the Apostle Paul’s writing, restricts women from serving in roles of spiritual teaching authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors, which definitely includes preaching to, teaching, and having spiritual authority over men.

There are many "objections" to this view of women in ministry / women pastors. A common one is that Paul restricts women from teaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated. However, 1 Timothy 2:11-14 nowhere mentions educational status. If education was a qualification for ministry, the majority of Jesus' disciples likely would not have been qualified. A second common objection is that Paul only restricted the Ephesian women from teaching (1 Timothy was written to Timothy, who was the pastor of the church in Ephesus). The city of Ephesus was known for its temple to Artemis, a false Greek / Roman goddess. Women were the authority in the worship of Artemis. However, the book of 1 Timothy nowhere mentions Artemis, nor does Paul mention Artemis worship as a reason for the restrictions in 1 Timothy 2:11-12.

A third common objection is that Paul is only referring to husbands and wives, not men and women in general. The Greek words in 1 Timothy 2:11-14 could refer to husbands and wives. However, the basic meaning of the words are men and women. Further, the same Greek words are used in verses 8-10. Are only husbands to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger and disputing (verse 8)? Are only wives to dress modestly, have good deeds, and worship God (verses 9-10)? Of course not. Verses 8-10 clearly refer to men and women in general, not only husbands and wives. There is nothing in the context that would indicate a switch to husbands and wives in verses 11-14.

Yet another frequent objection to this interpretation of women pastors / preachers is in relation to Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Priscilla, Phoebe, etc. - women who held positions of leadership in the Bible. This objection fails to note some significant factors. In relation to Deborah, she was the only female judge amongst 13 male judges. In relation to Huldah, she was the only female prophet amongst dozens of male prophets mentioned in the Bible. Miriam's only connection to leadership was due to her being the sister of Moses and Aaron. The two most prominent women in the times of the Kings were Athaliah and Jezebel - hardly examples of godly female leadership.

In the Book of Acts, chapter 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla's name is mentioned first, likely indicating that she was more "prominent" in ministry than her husband. However, Priscilla is nowhere described as participating in a ministry activity that is in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11-14. Priscilla and Aquila brought Apollos into their home and they both discipled him, explaining the Word of God to him more accurately (Acts 18:26).

In Romans 16:1, even if Phoebe is considered a "deaconess" instead of a "servant" - that does not indicate that Phoebe was a teacher in the church. "Able to teach" is given as a qualification for elders, but not deacons (1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:6-9). Elders / bishops / deacons are described as "husband of one wife," "a man whose children believe," and "men worthy of respect." In addition, in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:6-9, masculine pronouns are used exclusively to refer to elders / bishops / deacons.

The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 makes the "reason" perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with "for" and gives the "cause" of what Paul stated in verses 11-12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because - "Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived." That is the reason. God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a "helper" for Adam. This order of Creation has universal application to humanity in the family (Ephesians 5:22-33) and the church. The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This leads some to believe that women should not teach because they are more easily deceived. That concept is debatable...but if women are more easily deceived, why should they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? That is not what the text says. Women are not to teach or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. As a result, God has given men the primary teaching authority in the church.

Women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching and helps. Much of the ministry of the church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted to public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only to having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians chapter 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the Gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).

God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership – in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would include women serving as pastors / preachers. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with how God has gifted them.

Retrieved from http://www.gotquestions.org/women-pastors.html
 
yeah. :) thats where I got the info I posted earlier. so whats your conclusion from this article?
 
Agarash said:
yeah. :) thats where I got the info I posted earlier. so whats your conclusion from this article?
God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership – in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would include women serving as pastors / preachers. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with how God has gifted them.
 
I understand that it is because god wanted it that way, But is their any.. Reason behind it?

I can understand dealings like "you can't be married" "you can't sin" etc.. But, You can't be a woman, because, God doesn't want the church run that way..


Thats just..
It doesn't fit.
 
peace4all said:
I understand that it is because god wanted it that way, But is their any.. Reason behind it?

I can understand dealings like "you can't be married" "you can't sin" etc.. But, You can't be a woman, because, God doesn't want the church run that way..


Thats just..
It doesn't fit.
My son will not give birth as it is not his role to do so.
My wife is not the head of this household, I am.
I am not the head of God's Kingdom, God is.
My children are not responsible for the management of the household, my wife and I are.
I am not the head of the Church, Jesus is.
I am not the shepherd of the church members, the pastor is.
God created Adam first, and then He created Eve as a help meet to Adam. Adam was not deceived, Eve was; therefore, God gave Adam the role of being the head of the household.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:16-19


18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Genesis 2:18-25
 
The fact that, solely because a person is a woman, means they can't be the "head" of a household, is just sexist. Bah

There is no use arguing. There are definitions that say what sexism is. Using religion, or things socially accepted in the past to try to overthrow this is ridiculous.
 
peace4all said:
The fact that, solely because a person is a woman, means they can't be the "head" of a household, is just sexist. Bah

There is no use arguing. There are definitions that say what sexism is. Using religion, or things socially accepted in the past to try to overthrow this is ridiculous.
You do not understand many things, my friend. This is just an opportunity to flare up your liberal upbringing.
 
peace4all said:
The fact that, solely because a person is a woman, means they can't be the "head" of a household, is just sexist. Bah

There is no use arguing. There are definitions that say what sexism is. Using religion, or things socially accepted in the past to try to overthrow this is ridiculous.
While I will admit I don't fully understand why God designed this the way he did doesn't change the fact that he did. He has his reasons and they are perfect.

Bottom line is men and women are different. Science is proving this more and more. This doesn't mean one is better than the other just different. It is the same with God. He designed us different and has different tasks for men and women. This doesn't mean one is more important in Gods eyes than another just different.

As God has stated when a man and woman marry they become one. This covers more than just the physical act of becoming one. This also means the couple will become 1 rounded individual (I'm not explaining this well so I hope you understand) fully capable of doing Gods will together that neither could do as well on their own.

When a man or a woman tries to take the role of the other then the balance that God has designed becomes skewed. This also has the tendency for competition to arise between the couple which could lead to fights and divorce.

The same holds true for single people as well. The roles are different but none are more important than another.
 
A question for all of you then, that believe this.

Do any of your wives work?
Do they contribute to the famillies economics?

Anyones wife make more than they do?

I remember when men were the "hunters and gatherers" and that was their role. I remember when woman solely brought up the childern, and that was their role. Now i see the jobs interchanging. Stay at hoem dads, Mothers that unt (my aunt goes hunting with my other uncle, its a little creepy) etc.

ARe thes epoepl unchristian>?
 
peace4all said:
A question for all of you then, that believe this.

Do any of your wives work?
Do they contribute to the famillies economics?

Anyones wife make more than they do?

I remember when men were the "hunters and gatherers" and that was their role. I remember when woman solely brought up the childern, and that was their role. Now i see the jobs interchanging. Stay at hoem dads, Mothers that unt (my aunt goes hunting with my other uncle, its a little creepy) etc.

ARe thes epoepl unchristian>?

My wife is a stay at home mother. She also watches other kids so she does contribute to our income but that is not why she does it.

We decided that one of us would stay home with our children so they were raised with our morals and not someone else's. As far as the money she gets for watching other children it is primarily to cover the cost of the food she provides. She has forgiven close to a thousand dollars of debt from others because it is more important to help others than to take their money.

peace4all,
Please understand what I'm about to ask is not meant to be argumentative even though it may seem that way.

Does knowing that my wife stays home change anything in what was posted on the Biblical differences between men and women?

One thing you need to understand is the decision for my wife to stay home and raise our children was a joint decision. I did not force her to do it but rather she chose to do it. Yes it was based on our shared Biblical beliefs.
 
peace4all said:
ARe thes epoepl unchristian>?
Sorry I missed this part.

Are these people unchristian?
I don't know because I don't know their hearts. If both parents are working for the sole reason of money then I would say they are showing a lack of trust in the Lord to provide their needs but again I don't know their heart or motives.

The problem as I see it is adults wanting more than just their needs. I am guilty of this as well as I own things that I don't absolutely need. This is where people get off track which forces both parents to work. We want the big house and the new car. We want the nice vacations and the toys so we can optimize our free time fun. These are all fine things but when we want them more than we want God then we have crossed the line.

God never promised he would supply all our wants but he did promise to supply our needs.
 
peace4all said:
So whats the problem with havign a female pastor? I am confused here.

This to me just seems liek downright sexism. Can anyone explain this in a way that doesn't make women seem inferior? or, is that how the world is supposed to be?





Because, it is Scripturally wrong. Historically wrong. Traditionally wrong.
The only places that have had priestesses are fertility cults.

The Ordination Office in the 1979 so-called "Book of Common Prayer" presents a new religion, because it allows for the "ordination" of priestesses; therefore, it is an invalid ordination ceremony, and orthodox Anglicans do not recognize nor accept anyone "ordained" by that rite.

Personally. I have gotten up from the Communion rail rather than receive "Communion"(which it isn't, anyway) from one of them. I have also publicly refused to go to that side of the altar rail when women have been giving out "Communion."

I also have no problem walking out of church if a woman dares to "celebrate" the "Eucharist."

When I was RC, I would never, ever receive from a lay "Eucharistic Minister." It is the priest's 'job' to give out Communion.
 
Nroof, I can understand where you are coming from. A joint decision, in which neither is forced, is pretty much ok. I believe however that most relationships that have a stay at home parent, come to this

"someone needs to stay home and watch the kids, because I have to go make teh money"
"well, i guess I can do it"

Passive submissive people (usually hte mother, because it has been traditionally thought that women are weaker than men)

Sometimes it is time to break tradition. THe united states had a long tradition of slavery, a long tradition of no rights for women. We have broken them, or atleast been working on fixing them, why can't we continue?

THe only argument that I see that holds any ground, is that it is scripturaly wrong, which, leads me to believe that scripture promotes sexism.
 
peace4all said:
THe only argument that I see that holds any ground, is that it is scripturaly wrong, which, leads me to believe that scripture promotes sexism.
While I have not specifically said this I think it has come though that I believe a female pastor is scripturally wrong. That being said I have provided no scripture but I have presented my understanding of what scripture says. So the question I have now is based on what I have said does it appear to you that I am sexist? If as you say the Bible is sexist then I must be as well because I believe the Bible. However the Bible tells men to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. Christ came and made himself into a servant for me thus I am to be a servant to my wife. By the way I lack in this area to :sad

What my wife does is far more important a job than mine is. She is primarily responsible for the proper raising of our children and thus has primary responsibility for shaping their morals. To me that is much more important than the paycheck I bring home. If my wife was working my children would be raised by some daycare provider who is primarily in it for the money. Understand I am not saying daycare providers are necessarily bad but bottom line is they do it for the money. My wife raises our children purely out of love for them.
 
I'm fine with stay a home moms if that's thier choice. I know more thna a couple of guys who stay at home because thier wives make more money than they do. These aren't easy choices and there's no simple answer to them.

However I think deciding on such matters based on vague notions of "human nature" and differences in the sexes is silly and outdated. I love how men will quote OT scripture that keeps them in control while ignoring 90% of the rest of it. It's very hypocritical.
 
peace4all


Bonsai said:
peace4all said:
So whats the problem with havign a female pastor? I am confused here.

This to me just seems liek downright sexism. Can anyone explain this in a way that doesn't make women seem inferior? or, is that how the world is supposed to be?

It comes from the Bible.

But before you say that the Bible is sexist or anything, consider the role that women had in the world 2,000 years ago.

Then consider that the very first people to see Christ alive after the resurrection was females. Jesus spoke often with women and even with Samaratian women, which shows His great love and compassion for them and His elevation of women to equal with a man.

And also consider Paul's testimony that there is neither male nor female in Christ but all are one.

I was wondering if you would comment on this post please. :) Thanks.
 
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