I already gave you what Jesus has already said what blasphemy is in Matthew 12:31,32 which is very plain to understand and if you do not want to believe Jesus then there is no more we can discuss.
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Eternal security or conditional security?
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
I already gave you what Jesus has already said what blasphemy is in Matthew 12:31,32 which is very plain to understand and if you do not want to believe Jesus then there is no more we can discuss.
Paul is using the debaters technique. The "if" is a first class conditional clause......If and you are. I (Paul) am assuming that you possess the word That I (Paul) preached to you.
The "unless you believed in vain" clues us in. State a fact, then proclaim a false hood to show it is true.
Paul was making a point that when one believes you get the whole package.....Justification salvation,sanctification salvation and glorification salvation. And Paul was specifically going to glorification salvation. Some of The Corinthian believers didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead..........And all believers are going to be resurrected and given glorified bodies. That is why Paul uses the rest of the Chapter to explain it.
1 Cor 15:12~~New American Standard Bible
Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
~~~~~
Paul was making a point that believing in Christ is never returned void or in vain. If we believe...........we are saved.
Here is the debaters technique.....
"you are saved"(fact, Paul knew it). So lets assume that you possess the truth that I preached to you(fact). So then lets assume that your believing was in vain( False.) Divine sarcasm in a way. It points to the truth. Paul was in no way, saying that they needed to continue in belief to be saved.
He was actually pointing out to them that they got the whole package in salvation. Because they didn't believe they had the whole package.
Your comments continue to be baffling. The context is clear as to what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is.
Your unauthorized judgmental attitude towards what you think is my "not wanting to believe Jesus" is totally uncalled for. You may cease and desist immediately.
Likewise if we no longer believe, we are no longer saved.
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Believe = Saved
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
Believe for a while = Saved for a while
Temporary believing gets you temporary salvation.
Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13
This is the simple foundational truth, Jesus taught to His disciples, including Paul.
When the persecution and tribulation comes, one must remain faithful even unto death.
This is the truth that Jesus illustrated in the parable of the Sower, by using the heat of the sun to represent the persecution these disciples would face from the unbelieving Jews.
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Revelation 2:10
JLB
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This includes declaring what is or is not an acceptable post.
Here is just one of many contrast's in the bible about two different sets of Christians.
The warning is clear.
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
- but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:7-8
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
Same contrast, with the same warning.
If you can't address the words of Paul, that contextually show us that those Christians who live in sin, will receive the wages for that life of sin, which is death, then you have only seen half of the truth.
JLB
smaller
Member
The more common phraseology in the KJV is "believe not" or "believed not." The term unbeliever isn't used in that version.
I've deployed this sight from scripture many times in these various (seemingly endless) chattering back and forth.
Every person that came out of Israel over the age of 20 except for 2, died in the desert because they "believed not."
Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Unbelief is obviously a very powerful form of darkness. We also know from scriptures that this darkness is internal and is of Satan, the god of this world. Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 among many other like citings. So, were all those multiple thousands or even millions alone in their unbelief? Assuredly NOT! There was a CAUSE that was not THEM.
Does that mean God sent or will send Moses and Aaron and all of the others packing to the LoF? Uh, no. Moses was seen in the Mount of Transfiguration. So his "believed not" status that caused his death did not result in the LoF and will not in the future.
Eternal security is also only one side of the debate. Just as good of a case can be made for eternal damnation by looking at Paul's construct, here for example, among other scriptural citings:
2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
There are in fact TWO parties to the matters above. Paul, eternally saved. For the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh, who is probably still wandering around in some other flesh body today awaits his final sentence.
This of course never factors in to either side of these arguments.
What we are commanded to do is to NOT LET the other party BLIND us or get the best of us in the flesh, because that shows who is in charge, or not, as the case may be. Seeing/hearing scripture as it is meant to be read is only for ONE of these parties. The other one will never get it and never understand. That simply isn't going to happen.
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I'm sorry you feel I had a judgemental attitude and if it came across that way to you I do apologize as judging is never my intent as I have no right to do so. I would hope we could keep this a friendly discussion and keep our personal attitudes check at the door.
If we go back to the beginning of your post #7 this is where our indifference's started.
In your post #7 you said and I quote you "So, it would appear that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit isn't relevant to the issue of eternal security. iow, it's not applicable to believers who rebel. Also note that Jesus was speaking specifically against those unbelieving Jews who credited the miracles of Jesus to Beelzebub, rather than God. Since they were there and saw them personally, they had no excuse for their claim. Since no one today has witnessed the miracles that Jesus did, it cannot apply to those who didn't witness them". End of Quote.
You asked two questions in your OP, eternal security or unconditional security. My answer is we have eternal security, but it does come with conditions. When you apply the conjunctions of "and, if and but" that makes conditions that God sets forth, not man.
I was trying to show you in scripture about those who have weak faith and as many have tried to show you in 1Corinthans 15:1,2 the conjunction of "if" which is a condition as they no longer keep in memory of what they were taught. Within the conjunctions of "and, if and but" many fall away and end up blaspheming the Holy Spirit thus losing there salvation forever.
This statement is a mere opinion without any Scriptural support.
These verses aren't support for your opinion. Where does either verse say that if believing ceases, salvation ceases?
If this is biblical, where is it stated?
Check context. Refers ONLY to the Tribulation.
Actually, Jesus and Paul both taught eternal security.
Jesus said it this way:
John 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. This establishes the fact that WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life. Not just a promise for it some time later.
Then Jesus said this:
Johbn 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
So, from the moment one believes, they HAVE eternal life, per John 5:24. And Jesus promises that those to whom He has given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, from Jn 10:28.
Jesus also said this:
John 4:14 - but whoever drinks (aorist) of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty forever. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternallife.” This establishes the FACT that from a point in time action of drinking, which is a metaphor for believing in Christ, one WILL NEVER THIRST. Nothing about having to continue to believe to continue to be saved.
Jesus also said this:
John 10:9 - I am the door. If anyone enters (aorist) by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.
Again, Jesus establishes the FACT that from a point in time entering, a metaphor for believing in Him, one will be saved. Nothing about having to continue to believe to continue to be saved.
Then, Paul answered the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved:
Acts 16:31 - And they said, “Believe (aorist) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Again, to be saved, one must believe in a point in time. Not continuously believe in order to be continuously saved.
The crown of life is a reward for faithful service. Why would one think it refers to salvation itself? I guess only those who think that salvation is earned by faithfulness.
But we are not saved by being faithful. We are saved by grace through faith.
I was only pointing out what I see. But I don't take anything personal. Just posting a FYI.
OK. What's wrong with any of this?
The 2 questions dealt specifically with the first 5 points. Since 2 Tim 3:16 says that all Scripture is profitable for 1 of 4 categories: teaching, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, then what category to the verses in EACH point fit into?
Secondly, if any of the verses fit into the teaching (doctrine) category, just what do they teach, if not eternal security?
I really have no idea what "applying conjunctions" has to do with the OP. Please clarify.
I addressed the word for "hold fast". And the "if" happens to be a Greek 1st class condition, which means that the statement is considered TRUE from the perspective of the writer. iow, Paul was acknowledging that his audience HAD believed the gospel and did possess it.
The error comes when one treats the English translated word in today's usage. We must understand how the Greek was understood THEN. Some on this forum will not do that.
I am looking forward to anyone who will address the first 5 points of the OP and answer the 2 questions.
If my view on eternal security is wrong, it should be rather easy to answer the questions and show me what all those verses are really teaching, if not eternal security.
I've always been able to explain the verses given by the conditional security side to show that they don't teach that savation can be lost. But I've not had the "favor" returned.
Jethro Bodine
Member
As far as I know not a single English translation of the Bible interprets the 'if' that way. It's not even in debate among Greek scholars.
Only opinion?
Your gonna have to do better than that, in the face of the plain, straight forward words of Jesus Christ.
All you have to do is read what Jesus said.
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Believe = Saved
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
Believe for a while = Saved for a while
Simple. Believers are saved, those who no longer believe have returned to being unbelievers.
Do you believe that a person who no longer believes in Jesus Christ as Messiah and Savior, is still a believer?
How is a person forgiven for sins, if they don't believe in Jesus Christ?
Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13
Sorry but you will have to explain, with scripture, how a person is still saved, if they no longer believe.
JLB
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You mean like point number 6 ?
This is me addressing point number 6.
Here is just one of many contrast's in the bible about two different sets of Christians.
The warning is clear.
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
- but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:7-8
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
Same contrast, with the same warning.
If you can't address the words of Paul, that contextually show us that those Christians who live in sin, will receive the wages for that life of sin, which is death, then you have only seen half of the truth.
JLB
Hospes
Member
Just curious: for those who believe their faith is kept/lost dependent on their own actions, do you believe then that salvation is dependent on your works? If not, how do you reconcile the two beliefs:
- My faith is kept/lost based on my actions.
- We are not save by works.
C'mon Jethro, you gonna have to get with the "post modern" thought of today's Hyper-Grace theology.
2Your still thinking like the Apostles who wrote these "outdated" scriptures.
Word meaning's have changed. We live in a modern society where certain things are now accepted, from the culture in which the New Testament was written.
Get with the program brother.
JLB
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Is having a living faith considered work?
Do you believe that a person can renounce Jesus Christ as Lord, under the threat of be-heading, and confess Allah as Lord, and still be considered a believer in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?
JLB
:amen
Because next to salvation, the doctrine of eternal security is THE most important doctrine for the believer to know. We go nowhere in the Christian way life if we are not sure of our salvation or think salvation can be lost for ANY reason.
And if we don't believe in eternal security.................It ALWAYS messes up our doctrine of salvation.
If the believer is motivated by maintaining salvation or keeping salvation........................ALL the works are burned up, a life time of human good(evil) and not divine good.
It is of the utmost importance, imperative and wholly necessary for the believer to KNOW his/her eternal security to advance in the spiritual life.
John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Believers are missing out on rewards and glorifying Christ in time and unbelievers and believers are getting the wrong Picture of our sure salvation in our sure Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.